First lager

OK, I love to drink them so I'm going to take a shot at brewing one! After all what could possibly go wrong!

I have decided on a recipe from Papazian's, Joy of Home Brewing. Canuck Canuck Canadian Lager. It is an extract brew with a targeted SG of 1.040-1.044. I have bought a wyeast American Lager 2035 Smack Pack for the yeast.

I have a few Questions about this brew. Frist, I pulled the pack out of the fridge several hours ago, smacked the pack about 3 hours ago, and still see no swelling. The manufacture date on the pack is Oct. 2 2012, it is at room temp, 68*. I was going to pitch this into a 1L starter wort. Should I wait untill it swells? and if it doesn't, do I get a diffrent one, or pitch into the wort and see if it starts to "work"?

Second, I am in a daze as to the amount of info on here concerning starters. Is this 1L starter enough yeast for a 5 gallon, 1.040 beer? or should I step it a time or two? Is this even a decent yeast for a first time brewer to use on a light lager? I am hoping to pitch the entire starter, beer and all, into my wort after the brew tomarrow afternoon, is that being too optamistic?

Third, my basement stays at a very constant 52-54 degrees. I plan on fermenting this brew there for the first week or two, racking when the activity slows to nearly nill. Can I then leave it to "lager" at the same temp., or does it need to be cooler? Is 1-2 week primary reasonable? How long should it "lager" in the secondary? I am hoping to bottle and serve this at a 4th of July party I have every year, so I still have almost 5 months, I don't need to rush it.

Fourth, will this need an addition of yeast at bottling? If so what yeast should I use? Will I be able to wash and reuse this yeast after lagering?

Fifth, Has any one ever brewed this recipe? How did it turn out? It seems increadably simple.

Sorry for the novel. I'm sure that this has been covered a million times, and I really appreciate the help and patients!

Thanks,
Dave

Just chucked some of your details into MrMalty's yeast viability/pitching rate calculator and it's telling me that the yeast you're using's sell by date, therefore viability, means you need a helluvalot more yeast than you're mentioning. 32.5 vials/packs needed without a starter, 11 vials or packs needed if using a starter and your starter needs to be 5.15 litres.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

That can't be even close. I would need to spend 90 bucks on yeast!

First not all yeast packets swell so go ahead and pitch. according to beersmith2 you need a 4l starter. A couple weeks of primary is reasonable but then lager at 45 for 3-4 weeks and then over the next month lower it to 35. you shouldn't need additional yeast at bottling should be plenty left over to carb the beer. I've never brewed that particular beer but I do lager quit a bit.

Kirkwooder said:

That can't be even close. I would need to spend 90 bucks on yeast!

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The sell by date on your pack/vial of yeast is October 2nd 2012, right?
If that's correct, MrMalty.com calculator states the pack has a 10% viability. It's 4 months past the sell by date and viability is going down gradually from the time the pack is shipped out from the manufacturer, which is a year before the sell by date.

If you get a nice fresh pack, like still nearly a year to go before the sell by date, then you'll be in a much better position.

I'd probably just get some US-05 or Nottingham and ferment it cool, like upper 50s, as one pack would probably be fine for the kind of gravity wort you're talking about.

Ogri said:

Just chucked some of your details into MrMalty's yeast viability/pitching rate calculator and it's telling me that the yeast you're using's sell by date, therefore viability, means you need a helluvalot more yeast than you're mentioning. 32.5 vials/packs needed without a starter, 11 vials or packs needed if using a starter and your starter needs to be 5.15 litres.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

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I have always made a starter with just 1-2 packs, place it on a stir plate and just let the yeast do it thing for a couple of days then pitch. never had any problem. When I first started I didn't know anything about starters and would just pitch the yeast pack, it just took longer for signs of fermentation.

BobC said:

First not all yeast packets swell so go ahead and pitch. according to beersmith2 you need a 4l starter. A couple weeks of primary is reasonable but then lager at 45 for 3-4 weeks and then over the next month lower it to 35. you shouldn't need additional yeast at bottling should be plenty left over to carb the beer. I've never brewed that particular beer but I do lager quit a bit.

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4-5l of starter seems nuts to me. Thats 20-25% of my total volume! That will make a huge differance in the final product! Do all lagers need this much starter? Why does Wyeast recomend 1 smack pack for this 5 gallon batch? and why do home brewers still use it?

I must not be understanding something!

Ogri said:

The sell by date on your pack/vial of yeast is October 2nd 2012, right?
If that's correct, MrMalty.com calculator states the pack has a 10% viability. It's 4 months past the sell by date and viability is going down gradually from the time the pack is shipped out from the manufacturer, which is a year before the sell by date.

If you get a nice fresh pack, like still nearly a year to go before the sell by date, then you'll be in a much better position.

I'd probably just get some US-05 or Nottingham and ferment it cool, like upper 50s, as one pack would probably be fine for the kind of gravity wort you're talking about.

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The date of manufacture is otc.2, not the expire date.

BobC said:

I have always made a starter with just 1-2 packs, place it on a stir plate and just let the yeast do it thing for a couple of days then pitch. never had any problem. When I first started I didn't know anything about starters and would just pitch the yeast pack, it just took longer for signs of fermentation.

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Certainly don't doubt the veracity of your statement. I haven't even attempted a true lager yet. Was merely going by what the mrmalty.com pitching calculator was showing, from the OPs, yeast, sell by date/viability.

If you plan to do a diacetyl (sp) rest raise the temp to 65 after about 80% complete for about a week or so...if you let it ferment completely you wont be able to do a D-rest.

Nope you don't need a starter! I would use a starter on beers with a high OG, 1070+. A starter only speeds up fermentation and too much yeast can have a adverse effect. I would grab a newer yeast packet at your LHBS and pitch both and forgo the starter.

Sorry Ogri I didn't mean any disrespect. Beersmith gives me the same results and if I followed them I would always wonder why they make yeast packets so small. Plus the cost of making a starter....It's just not worth it.

Kirkwooder said:

The date of manufacture is otc.2, not the expire date.

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Actually, sorry, it's the production/manufacture date that's written on the pack/vial, according to the calculator, not expiry as I wrote. So it's still showing that your date on the package means only about 10% viability.

BobC said:

Sorry Ogri I didn't mean any disrespect. Beersmith gives me the same results and if I followed them I would always wonder why they make yeast packets so small. Plus the cost of making a starter....It's just not worth it.

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No worries, mate. Like I said, was just going by the calculator. Good to know that there's consensus between different yeast pitching calculation programs:fro:

BobC said:

Nope you don't need a starter! I would use a starter on beers with a high OG, 1070+. A starter only speeds up fermentation and too much yeast can have a adverse effect. I would grab a newer yeast packet at your LHBS and pitch both and forgo the starter.

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My "local" brew suply is 50+ miles away, I'll try pitching it in the starter wort and see what happens. It was the newest lager yeast they had. I thought it would be fine, because Weast says it's good for 6 months from the manufacture date.

Looks like I won't be brewing in the morning!

This is the first thread I have read that recommended not to do a starter especially for a lager. That yeast is pretty old, you can always build it up by doing a 1 liter followed by a 2 liter starter or something like that, or get another pack and do a 2-3 liter starter. Lagers require big starters, especially if you start on the colder side of fermentation such as 46 and let it raise to 48-50. If you start at room temp and then immediately lower it to 48-55 you need less but may get some off flavors. Cheers

Kirkwooder said:

4-5l of starter seems nuts to me. Thats 20-25% of my total volume! That will make a huge differance in the final product! Do all lagers need this much starter? Why does Wyeast recomend 1 smack pack for this 5 gallon batch? and why do home brewers still use it?

I must not be understanding something!

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The starter is just to grow the yeast. A big starter like that would mean, after 2 or 3 days of fermenting, you would chill the starter to get the yeast to drop out of solution, then decant (pour off) the starter, leaving the flocculant yeast on the bottom. Just pitch the yeast on the bottom, which is a fraction of the volume. With Ales, a lot of people don't decant and just dump the whole thing in, and sometimes I do that, especially when it's only a liter or two.

Hey guys. Yeast cell count is critical to an effective fermentation (which leads to good beer) and a lager at 1.040 requires around 285 billion yeast cells. A just born Wyeast pack contains about 100B cells, but that number drops rapidly with time. If it was made in October, it's viability is likely down by about 60 to 70%. So you will, indeed, need a LOT more yeast packs. I generally recommend my customers use 4 fresh packs for lagers if they won't do a starter. (Technically, you should do a 2 quart starter and pitch 3 packs of yeast with a born on date of October.)

Don't pitch the yeast until the packs are swollen, then allow at least 24 to 36 hours for the starter to grow.

I strongly recommend that you NOT cut corners when it comes to yeast, especially with a lager. Many things will happen to your beer if you underpitch...every one of which is bad. Most beginner brewers find it really hard to accept this ugly truth, but great beer requires a lot of healthy yeast. And saving a few $$ on yeast is simply not a good reason to risk the entire batch.

well now you know to plan for a large starter for the next lager you want to brew. But I'm sure you don't want to drive for a couple of hours to get more yeast so lets work with what you have.

1st I would prepare a 1 liter starter and let it do its thing at 50F. after a couple of days pitch to a 3 liter starter, that would give you a 4 liter starter altogether. After 3 days begin your brew day. I know it's not the ideal way to do it but sometimes we just have to make do with what we have.

I would follow the advice that everyone has given so far. I would add myself that you should think first of yeast health when making this first batch of lager.

Build up the starter, use quality nutrients in the starter and in the beer and ferment on the warm side. Then you will have a large amount of healthy lager yeast to work with in the future. My 3rd and 4th pitches have always made the best lagers.

I think that I am starting to get the picture! If I use a 5 L starter I have to wait for it to flocate and pitch only the trub! I was thinking of pitching it at peak activity. Is there a difrent yeast that you guys would recomend? I pitiched the 2035 Wyeast into a 1L starter last night befor going to bed and there still appears to be no activity this morning! I think I'll try and order some from Northern Brewer or the like. Would I be better off with a dry lager yeast, and is there even such a thing?

I am in no real hurry for this beer so I can wait if it means not waisting the entire batch on a bad pack of yeast! I really would like this to turn out as well as it can, and don't really mind waiting if there is somethig I can do now to make it the best it can be!

I hate the idea of dumping a bunch of money on mulitiple packs of yeast. Can't I just get 1 or 2 and step up from there?

Is mail ordering yeast a bad idea? A company like NB is way more likely to have a lot more sales, and, therefor, fresher packs, than my LHBS. Temps are in the 20's around here for the highs this week. I think the pack of yeast that I have may have frozen, and this would be a concern for me.

I don't have a stir plate and I'm not really planning on spending the money on one untill I find out, for myself, if my lager is worth all the hassle. I would certainly spend the $$$ if this batch, and maybe a couple others, turn out well! Is there an alturnative to the stir plate? I know that I can shake the container often, and that will help, but I was trying to figure out something in the house that would keep it shook up. I was thinking about setting it on top of the washing machine, but I did all my laundry yesterday! Just a thought!

kirkwooder - good luck with your beer. i have had good luck with starting with a 1L starter, cooling and decanting, and then pitching 2L more on top of that and pitching the whole thing when it is at high krausen.

i have had lager starters take up to three days to show any activity (that is, stop smelling sweet).

once you do this beer, consider reusing your cake. it saves you a lot of effort in the starter department.

progmac said:

kirkwooder - good luck with your beer. i have had good luck with starting with a 1L starter, cooling and decanting, and then pitching 2L more on top of that and pitching the whole thing when it is at high krausen.

i have had lager starters take up to three days to show any activity (that is, stop smelling sweet).

once you do this beer, consider reusing your cake. it saves you a lot of effort in the starter department.

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You think My starter might take off, yet?

I made the mistake of dumping a cake from a first run Kolsch that my Raspberry wheat was on. I didn't save any of it. I thought that I could just as easily retrieve it from one of the bottles!

I obviously have so much to learn, but I find it fun!

Kirkwooder said:

You think My starter might take off, yet?

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oh, definitely. give it time and occasional swirls. does it still smell sweet?

Hey Kirkwooder. Yes, you CAN use 1 or 2 packs of liquid lager yeast and build the starter from that. It will take a few days and at least two steps (as someone described a couple posts ago).

Nothing wrong with mail ordering at all! It's a good idea to ask the store (online or otherwise) what the dates are on the yeast you want. I sell only "fresh" yeast at Mile Hi and toss any liquid yeast over 4 months old. Maybe a bit wasteful but it ensures you always get a good fermentation.

Finally, you should always refrigerate liquid yeast. If you suspect it has been frozen, the yeast is almost definitely no longer with us!

progmac; it smells sweet and like the yeast pack stink mixed! It's still really sticky. (spilled some on the table)

Mile High: I had it in the fridge for the weekend, but the wife filled my beer fridge in the house with frozen beers from the garage beer fridge, and it got really cold in there.( Yeah I have 2 just for beer! Well there are a few sodas and juice boxes in the one in the house, but not many !)

There are a few ways to know if your starter has actually fermented: There should be a white layer of fresh yeast on the bottom of the container. There should be a slight (w/lager) ring around the wort line where the foam (though slight) may have dried. And, when you swirl the container, it should foam up, as Co2 comes out of solution. If any or all of these signs are evident, it's likely fermented already. If not, warm it up to 70 - 75 degrees and let it go another day.

I wouldn't think the yeast pack would freeze by simply being in a fridge containing ice. It should be fine...just a little old and a lager (both of which mean it will be slow to grow).

I don't see any signs of activity. When I say cold I mean there was some ice crystals in a diet coke that I pulled out the next day. There was about 4 cases of beer out there, and temps have been dropping below 0* alot lately. So the beer might have been as cold as 10* or so.

just be patient. if no activity after 72 hours, check back. the second step won't be nearly so slow to take off.

Well, I hate to be a pessimist, but that's really cold for liquid yeast! It may well have been killed if the pack froze. But, I agree with the last post...give it some time before tossing it and starting over.

My yeast starter is finially making a few bubbles and apears to be coming to life. I have 1L of 1.040 wort that I pitched the yeast into. Can I simply make 4 more liters of wort and combine the two or should I wait for this to flocate and decant the beer off. Then add 4L on the cake, or do i need to do more steps of smaller starters?

Kirkwooder said:

My yeast starter is finially making a few bubbles and apears to be coming to life. I have 1L of 1.040 wort that I pitched the yeast into. Can I simply make 4 more liters of wort and combine the two or should I wait for this to flocate and decant the beer off. Then add 4L on the cake, or do i need to do more steps of smaller starters?

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sure, you can do that. http://yeastcalc.com/ is a very good resource for stepped starters. you could probably get away with adding just 2L more.

OK, I think that I have the yeast thing figured out. I think I'll do 4L. It shouldn't hurt anything if I do that right?

Has anyone tried this recipe?

Kirkwooder said:

OK, I think that I have the yeast thing figured out. I think I'll do 4L. It shouldn't hurt anything if I do that right?

Has anyone tried this recipe?

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I googled it and this thread came up! I've never heard of Canuck Canuck Canadian Lager. 4L is great!

OK. brew day is finally here and I have a few questions. When I am boiling my hop additions, should the pot be covered? I have not yet added the extracts, and I don't plan to untill the final hop addition.

Do not leave the cover on the pot during the boil. The point of the boil is drive off DMS.

Thanks Darwin!
I have racked off 4l of the liquid from my 5L starter and plan to pitch the remaining liter with trub and all. Can I save the 4L that I racked off for a starter remake?

Kirkwooder said:

Thanks Darwin!
I have racked off 4l of the liquid from my 5L starter and plan to pitch the remaining liter with trub and all. Can I save the 4L that I racked off for a starter remake?

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The decanted beer is really good for nothing. Making a starter from the beer is possible i suppose but between the alcohol and the lowly flocculant yeast cells, I would think it to be a bad idea.

Next question: The brew day went great with no major issues. I ended up a 1/2 lb short of the 4 lbs of ldme that the recipe called for, because of making a huge starter, and ended up subbing in an extra 1/2 lb of rice suryp powder. I chilled the wort to 64*, and pitched the starter. Do I wait for it to start an active fermentation befor cooling it in to the 50's, or should I get it down there as soon as possible?

Kirkwooder said:

Next question: The brew day went great with no major issues. I ended up a 1/2 lb short of the 4 lbs of ldme that the recipe called for, because of making a huge starter, and ended up subbing in an extra 1/2 lb of rice suryp powder. I chilled the wort to 64*, and pitched the starter. Do I wait for it to start an active fermentation befor cooling it in to the 50's, or should I get it down there as soon as possible?

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Get is down ASAP. Pitching while the wort is warmer is a technique for correcting underpitching. In your case it isn't necessary.