Anyone know how to stir mash in cooler without opening?

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nosnhojm20

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I've had consisted efficiency… 60 to 62%! I had an igloo cube cooler 60 quart. I've insulated the top with great stuff. I stir four or five times during the mash and I have batch and fly sparged. I also use an SS braid.

I'm thinking if I automate the stirring to be constant it may help.


Any thoughts would be helpful, automated or not on getting better efficiency.
 
I don't own the grain mill, the LHBS does. I have to say that I trust them as they just took home a gold in the US Open Beer Comp. I also have gotten the same efficiency from a lot from Austin HBS. AHBS seemed courser, none of my buddies have the same issue as me and they get their grain at the same place. I

s it the cooler? The valve is a bit higher than the floor on a slant. It's the original drain spigot hole and a Bargain Fittings conversion kit.

All that being said, I'm a bit of a noob as I've only got 7 AG batches under my belt with no other point of reference.
 
nosnhojm20 said:
The valve is a bit higher than the floor on a slant. It's the original drain spigot hole and a Bargain Fittings conversion kit.
Click to expand...
Are you leaving a lot of wort behind? The height if the spigot shouldn't matter as long as you dip down to the bottom with a tube before attaching to what ever you're using to filter the husks. With the drain tube lower than the tun a siphon action should get all the wort out.
 
Those are great insights. I usually tip and usually am leaving about a quart behind is my guess. I wouldn't think that little is much of an issue though. I am starting to think it is the crush, nothing else makes sense to me! Frustration doesn't quite come through while typing.

I really don't want to invest in a mill yet as I just, after many homebrews, ordered all the parts for a keezer (which just got built). I promised I wouldn't spend more than 40 dollars on anything homebrew related except ingredients until I paid the keezer off.
 
I second the suggestion on batch sparging. Although if your beer is good and efficiency is constant I would let it be and account for it in recipe formulation (ie. Add a bit more grain)
 
A friend of mine also uses a 60 qt igloo cube cooler for 5 gallon batches and he's really been struggling with consistency (and efficiency). He has seen efficiencies from about 54% to 76% and they're never the same. It makes for a real hard time designing a recipe and a frustrating brew day. It's hard to balance a recipe when you never know what OG you're going to achieve.

He uses an unsoldered copper manifold with a piece of silicone tubing that dips down from the spigot to the manifold. He has noticed that if he takes the time to wrap each and every copper joint on the manifold with teflon (to take up any space) then he gets much better inconsistent efficiencies (65-75%) whereas if he does NOT wrap the joints with teflon then he can vary anywhere in that larger range but usually ends up on the poorer side of things (55-65%).

Just a note: Draining a cooler of water as opposed to a cooler of mash are drastically different. The water will always drain significantly better than the mash. One easy way of checking how much mash wort is not draining on a batch is after draining your first runnings, dig down in the grain with your spoon and take note of when you encounter wort/liquid. When doing this on my buddy's MLT we started seeing liquid that was several inches above the manifold which equates to 1-2 GALLONS of missed wort. IIRC, 1-1.5" of vertical distance in those things equates to a gallon so if you have wort that's 3" above a manifold then it could be 2 gallons of wort leftover (giver or take).

It's the first and second running where I think you take the biggest hit. For instance, if you were supposed to get 3.5 gallons of the highest sugar wort and you leave behind 50%, then your second runnings that drain as poorly as the first will only get you some of that back (half of 50%) so you're still leaving behind 25% of the first runnings PLUS a bunch of the second runnings (which should still be fairly high in terms of sugar content). This is what I suspect is causing my buddy issues in his MLT.

Also, it seems that specifically in these cooler setups (60 qt cube with elevated spigot) you are at the mercy of the siphon, especially as it gets lower and lower. Once you're down to ~3" above the bottom of the cooler you need to ensure that the siphon doesn't break otherwise you cannot get it going again.

I have a feeling that a possibly good solution for these coolers is a single line soldered copper manifold (cpvc would also be fine) that runs side-to-side along the bottom corner of the cooler closest to the spigot with the cooler tilted under the front so the slope descends to the single-line manifold. Also, I think the draining should be moderate speed (not too fast) so as to allow the wort to keep making it's way to the manifold without ever allowing air to channel in.
 
A couple things come to mind for me that boosted my efficiency;
What kind of heat loss are you experiencing in your mash?
Why use such a big cooler for 5 gallon batches? My 6 gallon batches in high OG brews only need 40 qt tun. That's a lot of head space to lose heat to. I'm staunch in my belief that temperature control in the mash is dang near as important as temperature control in fermentation if you want consistency in your OG for the same recipes.

I never stir during the mash...only at mash in and mash out. I have a form of fly sparge.....it's a plexiglass plate that sits in the cooler lip for the top and has lots and lots of little holes in it (took about an hour to drill them all :drunk:). I gravity drain sparge water on the plate through a tube with more holes in it at the same rate as I empty the tun. That helped my efficiency.

You could ask your grain grinder to make a couple different grinds for the same recipes and see how that works. A bit time consuming but it would tell you if the grist is right or not.

I've used both manifolds and ss braids. Seems to me the manifolds have a larger effect depending upon the layout and such. I tinkered around with designs so much trying to improve that I quit and went to the SS braid no matter which tun I use just for convenience and predictability sake.

And I do put my mash tun on an incline even though my outlets are the kind that are in the indented drain....because I want every last drop I can get. :)
 
When you first drain the liquid it will slow to a trickle or drip but the grain has not released all that it is going to, you still might be able to get quite a bit out of it. I fly sparge and have sight glass. I have noticed after I sparge and the spigot is closed that there will be a build up of liquid in the sight glass. With a fly sparge this liquid has very little sugar but with batch it might be considerable. I would leave the valve opened and let it slowly drain into a pitcher or other container and add it to the boil as it accumulates up until the last 15 minutes or so.

You definitely need to tilt your MT. If you are using a manifold, is it sitting at the bottom or is it suspended at the level of you drain hole?

You can check if you are leaving excess amounts of wort in the MLT after sparging by weighing your MLT and also the grains before you mash. When you are finished sparging, weigh the MLT (with the spent grains still inside). Subtract the before and after sparge weights and divide that amount by the pre-sparge grain weight. You want this number to be fairly close to 0.13 gal/lb.

(Pre-sparge weight of MLT and grains - post-sparge weight of MLT and grains) / pre-sparge weight of grains = grain absorbtion factor

Hope this helps.

Paul
 
Also, if you mill your own grains, you can buy in bulk and save money which will eventually pay for the mill. A 50lb bag of grain is usually around $35 to $40 (sometimes less if you can buy from a local craft brewery) while buying the same amount without bulk can be 30 to 50 percent higher. With some of the speciality grains, I spilt the bags with 2 or 3 people. You can store un-milled grains in a cool dry place for quite a while.
 
I would bet good money it is just the crush. if you stir well at mash in, hold temperature within a couple degrees and just let it set, there is no reason you should be getting 60%. whether you fly or batch (that is a different argument) Definitely not saying i'm an expert, only been brewing a couple years. my lhbs gives me a fine crush and I have never been below 70%. I take that back. I was until I switched lhbs and got a much finer crush. Crush makes a huge difference IMHO!
 
Look for uncracked grains in the crush next time, there shouldn't be any.

I got %68 with a cube 60qt igloo on my last batch sparge. the second sparge was 1.040 so there was probably still some sugar if I felt like sparging again or slower.

how is your gravity on the final runnings before you call it good?
Do you know how much calcium is in your mash water?
Any idea of your mash ph, or water's ph?
ever test for unconverted starch?
Why insulate with great foam? your temps shouldn't be dropping much at all in that cooler.
 
You got me thinking. Since I never seem to do well with the mash efficiency either I am gonna test my siphon tomorrow to see where it breaks and how much liquid is left. Then probably construct a manifold that sucks off the bottom.
 
Thinking about this more and I agree with brewmadness and grathan, you should check your crush. If it were the sparge, your OG would either not be affected or would be higher than expected and the volume of wort would be lower. I would also suggest checking the thermometer calibration, use more than one thermometer (different types/brands if possible) and take multiple temperature readings at different depths and locations in the mash. Although highly modified grains are pretty temperature tolerant, temperatures can vary considerably at different locations and depths in a mash even with a thorough mash in. Warming your MLT before adding water and grains can help this but if you are taking your temperature readings at a single point in the mash, you might still hit a hot or cold spot.
 
What kind of thermometer do you use? If your temps are off that could be the culprit...
 
grathan, I will add my recent experience. Since running the numbers on our 7/4 brew day, i believe that mash efficiency is more dependent on conversion than equipment. If you are getting consistent results on your equipment (good or bad), I would suggest looking at conversion as more of an increase in mash efficiency than equipment unless you are getting far less efficiency than others with the same equipment and set-up.

Even if you are not getting all the wort out of the mash, your OG should not be lower than expected. If so it would be higher than expected because your first runnings will always be higher than the last. Even with a batch sparge, the higher gravity wort will be extracted first because sugar is denser than water. If you were leaving behind a quart (or even two) the OG would be higher than expected but the volume of wort would be lower.

I did a triple decoction mash for a dopplebock this weekend (the first time we have done a mulit-step mash) and also a batch of our farmhouse ale (which we have done many times before). The grains were milled with the same mill (our own) for both batches and the lauter method was the same with the same equipment. However, the lauter/mash efficiency of the two batches were quite different. While the farmhouse ale had an efficiency of 74% (which is a little lower than normal) the triple decocted dopplebock had an efficiency of 87%, which is crazy I have never broken 80%. This was even after adding 10% water to adjust for the un-calculated evaporation from the triple decoction.
 
pdietert said:
Even if you are not getting all the wort out of the mash, your OG should not be lower than expected. If so it would be higher than expected because your first runnings will always be higher than the last. Even with a batch sparge, the higher gravity wort will be extracted first because sugar is denser than water. If you were leaving behind a quart (or even two) the OG would be higher than expected but the volume of wort would be lower.
Click to expand...

I don't follow this from a batch spargers perspective (but maybe it's just the alcohol :D ). Anyway, as a batch sparger I am relying on the sugars being mixed into the solution surrounding the grains and getting those out. That solution would have a constant concentration of sugar from bottom to top of the MLT, it would NOT vary from higher to lower. If I leave behind a large percentage then on my next sparge I will be diluting that high-concentration solution with water, and if I again leave behind a large portion then I'm still not getting out as much sugar as I should be.

Conversely, if I manage to get out most of the high-concentration sugar solution in my first runnings then my second runnings should A) contain less sugars, but B) have a higher chance of rinsing the remaining sugars from the grain provided I do my part of mixing everything up really well.

At least, this is how I understand the process of batch sparging. Fly sparging is a different story altogether.
 
Maybe try to double crush your grain from the LHBS next time? Or Ditch the manifold and line your tun with a voile curtain for a modified BIAB type mash?
 
jtratcliff said:
Maybe try to double crush your grain from the LHBS next time? Or Ditch the manifold and line your tun with a voile curtain for a modified BIAB type mash?
Click to expand...

It isn't always a mechanical problem. If his mash temperature or pH is off, it would effect conversion...
 
I would estimate the losses of this cooler to be well over a gallon with just a simple braid.

On a typical batch that is %30-%40 loss of first runnings perhaps.

All of the tipping and trial fly-sparging causing the inconsistencies.
 
grathan said:
I would estimate the losses of this cooler to be well over a gallon with just a simple braid.

On a typical batch that is %30-%40 loss of first runnings perhaps.

All of the tipping and trial fly-sparging causing the inconsistencies.
Click to expand...

Yes agreed, however in my experience I have realized that a gallon "dead space" in a cooler, is not a gallon of lost runnings, the grain bed under the braid is fairly dense with grain, so the wort is a much smaller percentage of the dead space, IDK, perhaps 15-20%.

Sometimes I would tip the tun to fully drain, and was disappointed at the amount collected, other times I said screw it, and went for a second sparge, leaving a bit of the first runnings behind...didn't seem to matter all that much.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Yes agreed, however in my experience I have realized that a gallon "dead space" in a cooler, is not a gallon of lost runnings, the grain bed under the braid is fairly dense with grain, so the wort is a much smaller percentage of the dead space, IDK, perhaps 15-20%.

Sometimes I would tip the tun to fully drain, and was disappointed at the amount collected, other times I said screw it, and went for a second sparge, leaving a bit of the first runnings behind...didn't seem to matter all that much.
Click to expand...

If there is more grain density there then there is more unrinsed sugar meaning the numbers might possibly get worse rather than better.

This cooler would take quite an angle of tipping to get the bottom inch and a half of liquid out the spigot. It's square shaped rather than rectangle. Tipping like this would disrupt the grain bed and the pump might lose it's prime and you'd have to be careful so liquid doesn't come out the top. Timing it just right you could slowly impart a significant angle while draining slowly and do a slight rinse while at this angle. But were probably talking an extra 10-30 minutes.

I just fashioned a temporary manifold out of a piece of old immersion chiller to compare losses at the point where the siphon broke on a level surface. I went from 1.2 gallons to 0.25 pint. Be interesting to look at mash efficiency in an actual batch which I may do later today.
 
nosnhojm20 said:
I don't own the grain mill, the LHBS does. I have to say that I trust them as they just took home a gold in the US Open Beer Comp. I also have gotten the same efficiency from a lot from Austin HBS. AHBS seemed courser, none of my buddies have the same issue as me and they get their grain at the same place. I

s it the cooler? The valve is a bit higher than the floor on a slant. It's the original drain spigot hole and a Bargain Fittings conversion kit.

All that being said, I'm a bit of a noob as I've only got 7 AG batches under my belt with no other point of reference.
Click to expand...

I made two batches recently from AHS, both had horrible efficiency. I'm not sure if it's a recent problem, but based on those two, AHS does not have a good crush. My LHBS consistently gets me in the 75% efficiency range, those two batches ended up in the low 60s. I ended up with two session IPAs and decided not to buy any more pre-crushed grain from AHS. If your LHBS is giving you similar numbers as AHS, the crush there might not be too great either.
 
I use two cubes as well… One for HLT and one for MLT. Both are set up for gravity and simple ball valve fittings with a closed piece of SS dryer-vent mesh for the “braid” (same concept / application but it costs $2.15 for two). No manifold, no pumps, nothing really complicated but it does the job surprisingly well. For sparging, I have a PVC sparge arm set up (Rests on the inner lip and fed through a hole drilled in the lid) that seems to work quite well. When collecting the last little bit, I simply prop a length (24”) of 2x4 under the MLT to aid in collection; seems to work really well. Just move it [2x4] closer to the valve as you go and the angle increases to almost being on its side. We hit 88% our last brew day (White IPA). In my humble opinion I really don’t think it’s the equipment. I would seriously consider the crush and do simple iodine [conversion] tests at 30 min / 60min / etc. until conversion is confirmed. Good luck and brew on!

However; to answer your original question (Which no one really did because of the efficiency tangent…Including me; sorry.) I already have a hole in the lid so I am gunna try this on Tuesday, but drill a small hole in the lid and [if you have one] use a BBQ rotisserie motor and fashion “paddles” to the rotisserie arm and drop it through the lid and “turn” it on. Most BBQ motors have enough torque to turn a 25lb turkey (This I’ve proven…HA!) so it should work… Key word, “should.” I’ll give it a whirl on Tuesday unless you beat me to it.

Cheers,

-JM
 
Thanks everyone. Manhattan, a special tip of the hat to you as it seems as though you've nailed it. I am going to try to get a longer braid, I think that might help. I will start thinking about investing in a mill, the crush may be the issue but I have no point of comparison (7 batches AG since I started brewing in January). I f**king love the idea of the rotisserie. That is pure, unadulterated, genius! Please, let me know how it goes.
 
stpug said:
I don't follow this from a batch spargers perspective (but maybe it's just the alcohol :D ). Anyway, as a batch sparger I am relying on the sugars being mixed into the solution surrounding the grains and getting those out. That solution would have a constant concentration of sugar from bottom to top of the MLT, it would NOT vary from higher to lower. If I leave behind a large percentage then on my next sparge I will be diluting that high-concentration solution with water, and if I again leave behind a large portion then I'm still not getting out as much sugar as I should be.

Conversely, if I manage to get out most of the high-concentration sugar solution in my first runnings then my second runnings should A) contain less sugars, but B) have a higher chance of rinsing the remaining sugars from the grain provided I do my part of mixing everything up really well.

At least, this is how I understand the process of batch sparging. Fly sparging is a different story altogether.
Click to expand...

It will vary a little but probably not enough to be detectable by a simple hydrometer. Sugar is denser than water so it will tend to move to the bottom. The point was that if you have more liquid left in the MT at the end of the sparge the gravity of it will be considerably less than the the gravity of the wort. Adding it to the wort would reduce the gravity of the wort, so it appears that nosnhojm20's efficiency problem is not related to leaving liquid in the MT.
 
pdietert said:
The point was that if you have more liquid left in the MT at the end of the sparge the gravity of it will be considerably less than the the gravity of the wort. Adding it to the wort would reduce the gravity of the wort, so it appears that nosnhojm20's efficiency problem is not related to leaving liquid in the MT.
Click to expand...

This is not correct. Think about it, your first runnings are the highest gravity right? So if you pull just a few ounces of say 1.090 wort and stop is that your best efficiency? Of course not! As the sparge continues yes, the gravity drops but the VOLUME collected goes up, so the total sugars collected goes up. For example:
-10 # of 2-row, target 5 gallon batch
- I think 2-row has an extract potential of 1.037
- calculate by deleting the 1 digit
- 37 x 10 = 370, / 5 (gallons) = 74, or 1.074 at 100% efficiency.
- Say you collected 5 gallons of 1.052, and I collected 6 gallons of 1.046, who got better efficiency?
- 5 gallons of 1.052 is 260 "gravity points"(5x52)
- extract potential is 370, so that's 70%
- 6 gallons of 1.046 is 276 points (6x46)
- extract potential is STILL 370, so that's about 75% even though the gravity is lower.

So you can see if you sparge more, you can drive up your efficiency. The trouble is, you may have more to boil off than 60 or even 90 minutes will accomplish. Once I understood this concept, I lost my ego about efficiency numbers. Grain is a fairly inexpensive part of brewing, so I figure the number of GRAVITY POINTS I need for a batch and low ball my expected efficiency. This way I ALWAYS get enough fermentables for my batch, and if I get more I can either stop early and save time, or make a bigger batch! Either way it's a win win for just a few bucks more worth of grain...
 
While you figure out whats going on, just adjust your recipes by adding a couple bucks worth of base malt.

I dealt with the same issue this way. I made a lot of good beer with 60-65% efficiency. When my LHBS got a new mill, it got better.
 
I'll keep stirring more. In the meantime I'll adjust my grain bill, as I don't own a mill I'm at the mercy of the lhbs. Dude is hosting an all grain lesson at his place,hopefully I'll have some success with that in August.
 

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