I Have To Rant!

I am very new to home brewing, but I have been doing alot of research over the past few months. I live in San Diego, and we have what appears to be only two decent options for Home Brew Stores. I quickly discovered that not only were their prices much higher than online stores, but their stock of home brewing equipment and sometimes supplies isn't very good at all. I also discovered that the websites associated with these stores are often inconsistent with what they actually carry in their stores, and need to be updated more often.

So naturally, I looked at almost all the major online dealers, and discovered that, for example: Many of the dealers may sell, lets say, Blichmann Boilermakers, but not advertize Blichmann fermenters, or maybe they don't offer the burners, or even their chiller on the same site. So I go to another site, and they might have the burner, but not the chiller offered.

Another item is a dial thermometer for my kettle. I can get it online for almost half the price of what my local HBS sells it for. Even the wart chillers were almost double the cost from online sources.

The thing is, I want and prefer to support my LHBS, but I just can't throw money away like that.

Hmmm, this is odd, and I ask myself if I am being to picky by expecting to much? Am I just naive about what it really takes to operate a business nowadays?

Here is what I want: I want there to be at least one LHBS that carries a wider selection of equipment, equipment which is in stock and available when I need it, without having to special order, or at least have examples of different equipment that can be special ordered. I am amazed at how small our LHBS's are, not much space to even display a variety of supplies and equipment.

I guess I am just old fashioned, and would like to do business with directly with my local stores, but now, with the internet competition, it is hard for smaller businesses to compete, and therefore not worth the extra effort and costs associated with stocking alot of equipment and supplies that people don't buy as often.

I am the kind of person who likes to see and touch what I am buying, so I know exactly what I am getting. Pictures and spec sheets don't always provide all the important info, but that is just me.

I want to have a relationship with people with whom I do business, face to face is so much better. Frankly, I am concerned about the direction of our society, and people living so disconnected from one another.

I could go on and on, but that is about the gist of my rant. Forgive me if I sound childish, but I feel justified on some level in expressing this.

I understand your point of view. I like supporting LHBS, and the face to face, but if you are on a budget, online is the way to go. Also, most online stores know their stuff, and have pretty good customer service (williams brewing has the absolute BEST). I've found that a few LHBS have really poor service, and not very much brewing experience by some associates. I try to buy small things from the one in town, and occasionally some specialty grains, but for big purchases I go online. just my .02

I only use my lhbs for specialty malts and yeast.

totally off topic but...do you think a lhbs is a viable business anymore? They must make a bunch of money off first timers who just walk in to get set up. I'd love to start one...

I use the internet for most of my purchases/research into where the lowest price for items are online. In my opinion a LHBS serves as a last minute "need x item" or I destroyed x item/ingredient on brew day and it is like an emergency situation place but it also gives me a meeting place to see what is going on in the area for tastings, sales and general knowledge. I do agree that I want to touch and fondle anything that would be over $100.00 but under that it just doesn't matter to me.

If it is the prices on item X in the LHBS, you have to understand that you are buying a baseball card from a card shop vs. a card from a rummage sale. The value of said card can move many decimal places depending on where it is. The same I have found true for internet, LHBS and other.

My others are mostly places like the World Market, Michaels craft stores, rummage sales, craigs list and even good ole Wally world. I am always looking for that next item no matter where I am. I am a huge DIY so I am always on the look out for saving money and thinking outside the box!

Also, I have learned that if you need item x in 2 days then you are going to pay up for it vs. slowly acquiring the items as you find the "killer deals" on them.

I hope this helps a little! RDWHAHB

Talk to your LHBS. I'm sure they'll be more than willing to carry products that you ask for. What I've noticed is that they carry what is most common, and many essential items for brewing. The cost issue is probably much harder for them to compete with. You have to figure that most of these stores aren't big names like Northern Brewer who sponsor magazines and podcasts. One advantage is you can walk in and get the ingredients to make a beer that day. If you order online, you have to wait for the ingredients and possibly buy extra so you save time and money on shipping for your next batch. It is a raw deal for LHBS owners, but that's life. Sometimes having passion for something just isn't enough.

As far as Blichmann, most companies don't actually have those items in stock. They act as a dropshipper for the company, by placing the order for you and having Blichmann ship it from their own warehouse. Often times you'll see that they offer better deals to the store than what you would pay directly to their company. This way it prevents people from bypassing the retailer.

Naturally, I will do almost all my shopping online due to prices being lower, and that is great from the standpoint of saving money, but I have to say, I am very disappointed in how limited my LHBS's are on many basic items, especially within a large community of home brewers.

Thanks for listening!

I do not have this problem fortunately. It must depend on the market, but my LHBS is the same or less for everything except hops, all things considered. Plus they are knowledgable and super nice and only about 20 miles away. It is very rare for me to buy online. If I have a big enough order to save shipping or if there is a shipping special then it makes sense to me to go online.
It is rewarding being able to support local.

It is hard to say how you might bring this up with your LHBS. There are a number of possibilities. He may be totally oblivious to the current market, he may need to charge the prices due to his overhead or less than competitive purchasing, or he is trying to take advantage. You will know the latter if he automatically agrees to a lesser price.

I also live in san diego and i go to the home brew mart on Linda Vista Rd to get all my ingredients for a new batch. They have a good selection as far as specialty grains, yeasts and hops go. Also, its a sister brewery for Ballast Point Brewing so I sample plenty of their beer every time I go. Its kind of a bonus.

As for the equipment, it is waaaay overpriced there so i stick to the internet and local hardware stores. Anything i can make myself i do.

I think of the LHBS as being, "The Corner Market", not the "Superstore".

If I were the owner of the store, I would do some research to find out if I could offer more of a selection at a little higher price for convenience to customers who are willing to pay, maybe 10% more, and still allow me to make a profit, the idea would be to capture the people in my community who would otherwise go to the internet. Basically, here is a business who only competes with one other business in town. One of them offers their brewery beers, the other is a small one-man operation who has a very limited supply of equipment. Due to the fact that the brewery has awesone beer, that is a good reason to go to them in and of itself.

It seems to me the homebrewing stores are opposite from grocery stores and electronics stores. What I mean is The small mom and pop shops usually know much more about their products than say the nationwide retailers.

My experience and what I have read on this forum is a number of lhbs do not have much knowledge about the product compared to an online retailer.

Let me make this point though, I am not saying all lhbs. I am just referring to my own experience and some of the other posts I have read on the forum.

I guess I am one of the lucky ones. My LHBS is great, they have a wide selection of everything I need for brew day. I do have to drive about 20 minutes, but I figure it's better than paying for shipping. I usually shop online for expensive items like grain mills , and kegging equipment. Other than that it's straight to the LHBS.

i have to order online most of the time because the nearest LHBS is 2 hours away.

The local homebrew store here in town is also more expensive than online retailers. However, I see two advantage to shop there. First, I can get my supplies and brew the same day. I've planned last minute brews where I wake up in the morning, I see the sun shine and immediately start planning a brew to take advantage of it. That's harder to do if your missing some stuff and you have to wait for it to be shipped.

Second, I can also see/smell/taste the freshness of the supplies so I can decide on last minute changes when I see a particular ingredient isn't the freshest.

However, I can't say I've gotten good advice from the the store. Most of the people who worked there started homebrewing in the 90s, and haven't changed their ways to take advantage of new experiences. For example, I shocked one of the staff there when I told him I leave my beer in primary for 3 weeks to a month. He told me to stop doing that and that I would get off flavors from the trub and yeast autolysis. I tried to convince him those are BS, but what do I know about homebrewing since I wasn't making beer 15 years ago.

Anyhow, I still support the store since they have good selection and it's still fun to hang out there and talk shop, but now that I've tried several techniques and have learned what works for me, I don't listen to much to what they say.

Being in San Diego, I know exactly what you mean. I frequent home brew mart, but only for grain, yeast, dme for starters etc. They are almost double the cost of most online retailers for equipment (except blichmann products, the I'd rather save the taxes). They do have the bonus of having tasters though. There are 3 other stores that I now of (one being in north county), but I've only been to one of them. I prefer hbm over that one though. If I were you, I'd stick to online for equipment purchases

I don't believe that homebrewing in the US would be what it is today if not for the internet. It is the huge base of information that the internet provides that is fueling the increase in home brewing.

Sure, there have always been LHBSs, but thanks to the interwebz, they will have a chance to prosper in the more densely populated regions.

The growth of home brewing is on the rise, and there is a slice of the pie for any store willing to provide a good service, whether it be an online store or an LHBS.

I have only two brick and mortar stores near me. Both are 45 minutes drive away. They are not really adequate in supplies or knowledge. I see a day in the future when I will get a better choice in LHBSs, but it will be thanks to the internet for the increase in interest in this hobby.

Honestly with the internet as it is today...I can only see tow types of stores anymore.

Mega and Online


Especially with shipping being as cheap as it is when you have a lot of shipments and try not to rape your customers with the costs (this is where a lot of onliners used to pad their prices)


Warehouses cost less than storefronts cause you don't care where a warehouse is located...where as with a storefront its all "Location, Location, Location"

I feel the niche business for live retailers has come to the end of its life...

My LHBS is a MoreBeer.com store. They are a bit higher than some of the competition, but they're cool knowledgable dudes. Plus for any non-major buy saving the $8 shipping is a boon.

Yeah, the equipment at Home Brew Mart is just out of control expensive. The shop in North Park is still too small to have a wider variety of equipment, and the shop in Kearney Mesa just plain sucks. I think that your best option is to buy equipment from online dealers and get your grain locally. If you buy a grain certificate from HBM, 2 row is only 65 cents a pound, which is a great deal. Their specialty grain and yeast prices are decent, too. But that's all I will buy from them. Everything else I have has really come from craigslist, but if I want something fun and new, I shop online.

I don't think you're being unreasonable by any means. As a small business owner, it is just good business practice to stock at least one of all of the items you are going to offer. I typically keep 1-2 of each of my higher priced, less commonly sold items in stock, 10-20 or more, of the lower priced & more commonly sold items, and drop ship whatever I can to maintain inventory.

On the other end, trying to keep a retail store front open is rather expensive, and that cost is passed on to the customer, which means higher prices. On top of that, all of your local customers must pay sales tax, again raising the price. So, unless someone is in a pinch and needs an item quickly, they are just going to buy it online from out of state where there is no sales tax. I personally don't see myself having enough customers willing to pay an extra 20%+ just to have the item right now in order to justify the cost of a retail store front, so I do all of my business as online sales.

The point is that it is almost always going to more expensive to buy from a small retail store simply because of sales tax and overhead. Whether that extra expense is worth it to have a product 2-3 days sooner is up to you.

However, expecting a retail store to stock a decent line of products is completely reasonable. If they don't, and everything has to be special ordered, I don't see how they will stay in business long since you can "special order" it yourself, and at a lower price and without sales tax.

See the LD Carlson sticker on the Packages you buy from the LHS? They are the wholesaler throttling competition in areas by not allowing wholesale contracts inside of geographic regions. Somehow they have positioned themselves as THE distributor, and as such what they say, goes.

This is what non-competition gives. I have been looking for other wholsalers and they are few and the ones I have found distribute for LD. Not saying that LD is a bad company, just a bad business model.

With territories for shops being set by the wholesaler, don't expect to effect much change. You're better off sticking to he Internet for your large and equipment orders. If there is an item you get frequently that they do not carry, ask for it, and go back for it. If they know what they are doing they will carry it, or keep it up for you. If they do not see your face though, they won't find it worth doing. After that if they don't stock your stuff, go to the other store, the benefit of the the small LHS is the flexibility to make orders like that.

I'm in the opposite boat. I have two HBS near by, one is mearly 5 mi from my home. Both of them offer great customer service and a 10% discount for members of the local Homebrew Club. One also offers a grain card system: pre-purchace 50 lb of grain for $65 (maybe $68 now) and they'll punch your card as you pick up what you need. If they don't have what I want, they'll order it. Ingrediant prices are good and comprible to online shops. Equipment prices however are ridiculous and I have only bough my big stuff online. When I want to save big, I buy bulk hops online. But the LHBS is my first point of reference.
If I was in your situation though, I would have no trouble going the online route. Business is business and if they're not providing a good competitive product, well, they should know better. When one of my shops didn't drop their hop prices after everyone else had, I expressed my frustration and they caught up with the market.
Try talking to your shop, suggest some of the incentives mentioned above. I'm all for supporting local business but if it doesn't make economic sense to your wallet then it's a tough sell.

Think of it this way...If I want to start an online brew supply site. All it would take is a computer. At this point I could set up a small website and choose some suppliers to drop ship products to my customers. There is no overhead and very little cost associated. Now I know that the large online sites have warehouses with stock on hand ready to ship when orders come in, but even this is cheaper than selling items retail.

In a retail setting, you must first buy/rent a building or space. Then you must BUY the equipment to put on your shelves. Think about all the supplies that your lhbs is stocking. In most cases, they are purchasing these supplies up front and them marking them up to sell. This markup must include enough margin to pay for the building, the staff necessary to watch the supplies to make sure they dont walk out the door, the energy to heat/cool the building...etc. The costs associated with retail are simply much higher.

Now If I can sit on my computer and fill the same amount of orders at a smaller margin, I am making more money due to less overhead. Its pretty simple economics.

Unfortunately many of the small mom and pop shops are being forced to close their doors as the big box stores and online merchants take over. Is it fair? No. Is it legal? Yes.

If your thought is really to help out your lhbs then its inevitable that you will spend more money. If you are looking for a cheaper price then your motive is different and online is the way to go...unfortunately in most instances you cant have both.

I`m sure there are plenty of brick and morter hb stores that also have websites...I know my lhbs does and they are very competetive on price and selection.I suspect that the cost of doing business is just higher in San Fran than maybe say Minnesota or Georgia.Somebody`s got to pay all those high taxes and allow extra expenses for all those extra rules and regulations depending on the location.

alcibiades said:

totally off topic but...do you think a lhbs is a viable business anymore? They must make a bunch of money off first timers who just walk in to get set up. I'd love to start one...

Click to expand...

There are plenty of LHBS that are doing just fine.


And there are plenty of shops who still think its 1985, and Al Gore hasn't invented the internet yet, and continue to operate in the manner they used to. The internet is here. Its not going away. People need to adjust their business plans to account for that. Most of the LHBS don't.


Internet shops have some advantages, but LHBS have some HUGE advantages that the internet guys don't...like they can give you beer samples while your in the store.



Remember, most of the online stores ARE LHBS. If you live in Austin, you can walk into AHB, etc.

So the question I guess I have is...Out of the current big players in online brewstores, how many started as LHBS vs Online warehouses.

I guess some might have started both...but I have to figure they bet on one being the horse and one being the cart.

JayInJersey said:

So the question I guess I have is...Out of the current big players in online brewstores, how many started as LHBS vs Online warehouses.

I guess some might have started both...but I have to figure they bet on one being the horse and one being the cart.

Click to expand...

I believe AHS started as a local shop and remains a good one (I have been told)

i'm with the op on this one. I would love to support my local shop. i can tell it's run/owned by brewers. the prices aren't too bad, but the selection is pretty slim. I sent them an email to ask about a frequent shopper club, or an email list for specials/sales. They didn't even respond. I'll still shop there, but the the online shops are where i'll get the bulk of my supplies.

budbo said:

I believe AHS started as a local shop and remains a good one (I have been told)

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The same goes for Northern Brewer, if I understand correctly.

I bought the following recently at my LHBS

13 pounds two row
1 # wheat
1# crystal 60
144 bottle caps

the total was near $35.

I can order from brewmasterswarehouse and pay about half the price and have a selection about 50 times larger

grains - brewmasterswarehouse
hops - hopsdirect
yeast - buy liquid or dry and maintain washed samples. I keep US-05, WLP029, Pacman, Nottingham and Chimay in my fridge at all times.

JayInJersey said:

So the question I guess I have is...Out of the current big players in online brewstores, how many started as LHBS vs Online warehouses.

I guess some might have started both...but I have to figure they bet on one being the horse and one being the cart.

Click to expand...

Maybe Midwest Supplies