Steam infusion question

I got a steam set-up coming together and used it for the first time with water tonight. I plan on using a propane burner for the pressure canner, the test was done inside on the stove however (obviously). The only question I have is regarding the freaking loud banging! Is this normal or do I need to throttle it to a flow rate low enough to where it doesn't bang? With the braid, it took 8 gallons of water from 150F to 168F in 10 minutes, throttling it slightly to avoid banging. I'll probably go with a copper manifold in the future to get a more even distribution. I guess the holes should be drilled at 90 degrees from pointing down so the steam doesn't go right into the bottom of the cooler.

Here's the set-up:










Here's a vid...you can hear the banging until I throttle it. Then I get back on it again.

http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/dstar26t/?action=view&current=MVI_1094.flv

You need a more even distribution manifold. That stainless braid is probably the cause of the banging. Unless you have a drilled/slotted copper manifold within it, the braid is letting large pockets of steam contact colder wort/water, making the racket you're hearing.

The banging you hear is called "hammering" it is caused by the steam collapsing and revaporizing in the system. In a hardpipe system it can be dangerous because it causes pressure spiking. Basically as the vapor collapses under pressure, the pressure reduces and the water in the line revaporizes violently due to the fact that it is still above 212*. The pressure tries to put it into a liquid state and the heat tries to keep it in a vapor state, as the pressure changes slightly you get repeated condensation and vaporization. In a soft tube system the tubing will absorb the spiking and wont even register on most gauges. But in a soft tube system you also tend to get more pressure difference because of the plasticity of the tubing, which also makes it less dangerous. Note: steam is hotter than water and can burn worse than an open flame. Make sure you tubing is safe to the the temp that water boils at under the max pressure +30% to avoid serious injury.
I think steam heating the mash is a viable alternative, but please be careful. I plan on playing with it one day also. The above info was explained to me by a nuclear steam generating engineer with many years experience. I hope this helps.

See the above post for the lengthy explanation. Then, see my first post for the solution. A distribution manifold tends to buffer the hammering to a dull, even roar rather than a rhythmic banging.

I wasn't trying to steal your thunder Yuri, you are correct in your way of reducing it. By reducing backpressure you are taking the some of the pressure out of the equation. If the Op understood what was causing it, then he might come up with other ideas that would benefit any who followed.
dstar, you might want to put some holes along the top to reduce the pressure further although this would probably be negligible. As long as the steam is not bubbling to the top of the liquid you a getting full heat transfer as the liquid condenses the vapor to liquid.

No thunder stolen, I just wanted to make sure we integrated all the info.

IMHO the most likely cause of the popinging and hammering is the large diameter and length of the braid being used to diffuse the steam. With that much surface area it will not be able to expel the water and let the steam diffuse through the braid. You would be able to move all the steam you need with a 2 - 3" piece of braid. Past experience with boilers and steam heat exchange equipment, and the causes of steam condensate hammering in equipment, your problems are from same cause.

Since I'm using the steam manifold also as the drain, how does this look? The holes are drilled parallel with the bottom surface of the cooler so they don't heat it up too much (compared to drilled pointing down like a normal drain). I already have a coil of 3/8" copper so I was hoping that would work. I saw that cookiebaggs used 1/4" copper and his system works well.



Thanks for the help all.
Nate


EDIT: Any opinions on 3/8" tube vs. 1/4" tube for the manifold? Both will have less dead space than the current braid. If the holes were pointing up, I'd have to think that the mash steam heat would get distributed better and I'd only loose less than another cup of dead space.

looks like that manifold would allow as much distribution as the backpressure allowed(hope that made sense) Holes up should provide less backpressure(hammering). I think 3/8 might also but I'm not sure if it would allow more liquid in thus needing more pressure to clear. An engineer would be better suited to that question.

Haha...I AM an engineer (mechanical) but haven't done anything like this since college.

I just searched and found Yuri's set-up and he uses 3/8". Nice vids by the way Yuri.

Nice looking setup dstar.

My simple system did that, too, in plain water. Inside the mash I never detected any hammering (or at least very, very little).

I was also able to minimize the effect in water by venting steam through the tubing and manifold before submerging it.

The distribution manifold design goal is for the steam to expel the liquid quickly and provide wide enough spacing to prevent localized over supply of steam and overheating. You could start with 8-1/16" holes equally spaced and go up from there, that should provide enough steam flow to get the job done.

You could start with 8-1/16" holes equally spaced and go up from there, that should provide enough steam flow to get the job done.

Click to expand...

The problem I may have with that is I'm using the steam manifold also for my drain...I would think that (8) 1/16" holes will make for a loooong drain time.

Nice looking setup dstar.

Click to expand...

Thanks FlyGuy. Your fantastic how-to's have been part of the inspiration.

dstar26t said:

The problem I may have with that is I'm using the steam manifold also for my drain...I would think that (8) 1/16" holes will make for a loooong drain time.



Thanks FlyGuy. Your fantastic how-to's have been part of the inspiration.

Click to expand...

It would cost you a little more money, but you build a copper manifold and have that sitting above your braid you are using for your separation. Then you have as many holes are you need.

That's also an option. But, then I can't put the lid on all the way. Plus, I like the simple dual purpose aspect.

I say use it and don't worry about the hammering. You will give new meaning to the term beer engine.

You could replace inside tee with a cross fitting and move tee to outside, run 1/4" od tube for steam through center of outflow line, and make circular steam manifold slightly smaller than braided screen. Inside all you would need is a a drilled plug for tubing, outside you would have to drill out a compression fitting to pass tubing for liquid tight seal. If you can not find cross fitting at local hardware then try buyfittingsonline.com site.

Here's what I did for my steam manifold.

1- 1/4" compression tee
4 ft of 1/4" copper tubing

Make a circle of copper tubing with a diameter 2 inches smaller than the inner diameter of your mash tun. Fit the ends into the compression fittings on the main line of the tee and tighten.
Put your lid on the mash tun and drill a 1/4" hole just below where the lid sits. Insert the remaining tubing into the branch line of the tee and tighten. Straighten the tubing and place the loop into your tun, apply a 90 degree bend at the height of the hole in the tun. Push the tubing through the hole and cut it so that about 2 inches protrude. Push your silicone tubing onto this and clamp.

I drilled about a dozen 1/16" holes evenly spaced around the loop. Facing up or down doesn't really matter as with a quick flip you can invert the holes. The manifold is easy to remove for cleaning and can remain in place while the mash progresses with the lid closed. I do lift the lid to mix while heating.

I tried the simple manifold first. Works very well with water. Hopefully it'll drain the mash without a problem. It heated 7 gallons from 100 to 120 in 5 minutes. 1 quart of deadspace.
Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions!

http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/dstar26t/?action=view&current=MVI_1114.flv


http://s86.photobucket.com/albums/k98/dstar26t/?action=view&current=MVI_1113.flv

Nate

So, I did the first run with this set-up yesterday. Steam is really easy and accurate. But, the steam/drain manifold did not drain. 1 cup came out and it stuck. Had to do the paint strainer bag in a bucket deal instead.
I have (44) 1/16" dia holes drilled in the manifold. If I just went to 1/8" dia holes, do you think it would drain or do I need to completely re-look at the design?

This was the grainbill:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.55 %
5.50 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
4.25 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 38.64 %
0.75 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 6.82 %

and this was the mash profile:
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 3.41 gal of water at 109.4 F 105.0 F 20 min
Step Heat to 122.0 F over 5 min 122.0 F 20 min
Step Heat to 150.0 F over 10 min 150.0 F 90 min
Step Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 169.0 F 10 min

I'm wondering if you can wrap the paint strainer around the manifold. That is what I do with my manifold. The only thing I would worry about is if it would melt with the steam.

That's a good idea, maybe I could wrap a cut-out circle stainless mesh over the whole top.

I know you desire to use the steam manifold as your collection manifold but, I think you would be happier with two dedicated manifolds. Thats what I do and it works great.

My steam manifold sits above the braid with small feet I made out of copper straps.





After mashout, I use the silicone tubing to pull the steam manifold out of the MLT before fly sparging.

That is a nice set-up you have there Cookiebaggs, no doubt.
I'm going to try another mash with the holes drilled out to 1/8". If that still gets stuck, I have another design I want to try before going the dedicated route like you have. I'm determined to get this single access point to work...I love a good challenge

I admire your persistance. Good luck and please post your results.

Perhaps I'll be the one modifying my setup!

BTW, I've been getting in the 90's for eff with this setup.

dstar26t said:

That is a nice set-up you have there Cookiebaggs, no doubt.
I'm going to try another mash with the holes drilled out to 1/8". If that still gets stuck, I have another design I want to try before going the dedicated route like you have. I'm determined to get this single access point to work...I love a good challenge

Click to expand...

Have you tried the larger holes yet?

I'm brewing again this sunday...only change will be the 1/8" holes and it'll be a pilsner recipe instead of the wheat that got stuck during lautering last time. Not the best back to back test but I really want to brew my favorite pilsner recipe again...not another wheat.

The change to 1/8" holes worked great yesterday. The steam worked perfect to keep the mash at the desired temps. It also drained well this time. Had to vorlauf about 3 quarts each time to get it running clear (Bobby's double batch sparge technique) and got 82% efficiency. While steaming up to mashout (150 to 170 degrees) the pressure in the canner went down much faster due to the bigger holes so make sure you have a good burner to keep up...I'm using a SQ-14.

The only bug I need to work out now is draining the boil kettle after the boil. 7oz of hops (2oz leaf, 5 oz pellet) made a hell of a time getting the last 2 gallons out, even after whirlpooling and waiting for 30 min. The valve on the keggle clogged, then the back-up plan auto-siphon clogged. I wound up pouring the rest into the carboy through a funnel which also clogged. I was so flustered that I forgot to take a gravity reading before pitching. The collected wort/trub/hops looks like a mess in the carboy but it was bubbling away last night thanks to the massive starter.

Here's the manifold...3/8" copper tubing (1/2" OD) with 1/8" diameter holes in the ring facing in and 1/16" holes in the straight piece that bisects the ring. Everything else in the 10 gallon rubbermaid follows flyguys how-to. 3/4 of a quart deadspace.


I would recommend that after use, flush it out with water and put it in the oven at 350F for ~15 min. It's not modular so it's a little harder to keep the inside clean.

I am really liking this steam set-up. Made an all Centennial IPA yesterday. 84% efficiency with LHBS milled grain. Bobby M's double batch sparge technique with adding steam when necessary to keep the grain at 170 while sparging.
Also had the first 100% successful trial with a hop stopper. 5.5 oz of pellets and 2 oz of plug hops. I added a tee on the end of the siphon tube for the hop stopper to get better flow while pumping out of the kettle though Bobby M's designed cfc. Very little trub into the fermenter and hit the OG right on. I highly recommend this set up.

That's great. I'm glad you worked out the kinks and can use the same manifold for steam injection and wort collection.

Steam makes brewing a lot easier. I really dig my system too.

Nice setup!

Thanks. The final test will be trying that hefeweizen recipe again since it got stuck during sparging last time when the smaller holes were in the manifold.

Did you ever try that hefeweizen recipe again?

Sure did. Went all out and brewed a 12 gallon batch without any issues. Used 2 lbs of rice hauls in the mash and did rests at 105, 122, 150 and 170. 90% efficiency. Scored a 35 by 2 judges at a competition, they commented that it was on the lighter side for the style but that's the way I like it.
Also brewed 7 other times without any issues, mostly IPA's with one rest and a mash out.

Dear steam-mashers,

Do you find you have to adjust volume calculations to account for the gaseous water you add turing temperature ramping? Or is the amount of water added minimal?

I've never measured the amount of water added from the steam but would say it's minimal. When setting up my brewery the first few runs, I never seemed to have ENOUGH water at the end of sparging, that is until I fudged the losses from pump tubing and MLT dead space in the spreadsheet.

I haven't seen anyone do this with a false bottom... any issues with that? (Using a separate manifold of course)

I'm designing a new mash tun made from a half keg. It'll utilize a false bottom with a steam injection ring around the bottom a couple inches off the perforated plate. It'll also have a height adjustable sparge ring that will do double duty as an additional steam ring for big grainbills. It'll also have an electric mash stirrer and an automated pump drained grant for vorlaufing.

Hey everyone, i just purchased an american 21.5 qt pressure cooker and im having problems with finding a threaded "t" to screw in to the lid. I went to home depot and we determined the size i needed was 1/8th in threaded "t" however when we screwed it in, it would only go part way in and stop. the guy at home depot said it was because the treads on the lid are metric, does this make since? how do i solve this problem?

thanks

I made a sort of bulkhead fitting. Nylon washer on the underside seals just fine.

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