Flask broke... My fault or theirs?

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TXCrash

TXCrash

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Background:
Last week I stopped at a popular homebrew shop in Portland. To be clear, it was NOT brewbrothers.biz (I've had nothing but good experiences with them). I directly asked if it was borosilicate and was told it was. Website states:
2000ml Erlenmeyer Flask. Great for making yeast starters. These flasks are made with temperature resistant glass so they can be placed directly over a gas flame, assuring a sterile growth medium. The extra large size of this flask is perfect for a huge starter. A must for barley wines and other big beers.
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The flask was VERY well packed at the store so I didn't look at it in store. Upon arriving home I unwrapped the flask and was dissapointed to find no indication of brand or material. I had a gut feeling the flask wasn't borosilicate but checked the website and carried on.

Today:
Put sugar solution in flask (was going to add to an apple creation) and prepared to boil. Placed flask with cold water and sugar solution on very low flame (brew rig burner). Applied low heat, gradually ramped up heat as temperature of solution increased but never got anywhere near full flame. Suddenly - bang, hiss, flask broken, flame extinguished, glass and sugar solution everywhere. Luckily neither my daughter nor I were hurt.

Question:
Any way other than markings to determine if a flask is borosilicate vs soda-lime glass?
Is what I did standard practice or should I mark this up to experience?

It's been a hellish month (meaning I'm REALLY pissy) and I wanted to consult with the wise minds here before contacting the vendor. I'm pissed - just not sure whether I should be pissed at them or at myself.

4232358023_0c8f7c7726.jpg

4233130606_f1a0049a18.jpg
 
Thats a hell of a burner for any glass object that small i would say at this point to contact the vendor although i wouldn't expect much sympathy and next time maybe try it on the stove. i had a recent experience with a "autoclavable test tube rack" that did not survive the pressure cooker i got a refund but i think only because the manager told me that it was.
 
I disagree. Borosilicate should be able to withstand the direct flame, especially considering that the heat was ramped up. I suspect you were sold substandard equipment. If it were ice water put over a high flame, then it might be an issue, but the liquid was heating so there shouldn't have been enough thermal shock to cause that.
 
I should add:
Flask bottom roughly 6 inch diameter, roughly same as burner (it looks like the larger banjo burners but it's a camp chef knockoff which is substantially higher).

Burners rated at 30Kbtu at full flame as designed. Replaced regulator with higher pressure regulator but flame was most likely still lower than as designed maximum.

Ambient temperature somewhere around 55, solution had been on burner for a moderate amount of time when failure occurred. I'd hazard a guess the solution was at least 190*F at failure if not higher.
 
A burner that big is slightly overkill for heating that sized flask. ;) While a good Pyrex flask should've held up to most temp shock, I still wouldn't have settled a 1L Erlenmeyer on that burner.

Do you double check to make sure there were no scratches or hairline fractures on the flask that could have contributed to the mess?

Glad to hear no one was hurt.
 
Well maybe I belong in texas ;-)

Better than having the flask break inside. Boy I'd be in trouble!

There may have been hairline cracks - I didn't see them if there were. I have the flask set aside till I get in contact with the vendor. If there were, however, they were caused at their site or their supplier.

In the future I'll use a cast iron pan underneath. I could probably deidicate one to this.

On a side note - this flask had a slightly concave bottom. Is this normal or are good flasks flat bottomed? My stirbar would keep getting thrown in water tests at high speeds due to the concave bottom. On a flat surface the same stirbar will happily spin at full blast.
 
did it say pyrex? if not, chances are it wasnt borosilicate although it doesnt really mean much as pyrex is a brand name.
 
So. Since I was told the flask was made of borosilicate and it likely wasn't what should I expect from the vendor?

Flask was purchased at brick and mortar location, vendor ships, I live 1.5 hours from location and while I'm in Portland somewhat often I'm rarely in that part of town.

Would it be reasonable to expect a flask shipped to me? Would it be reasonable to expect that the new flask be marked with something indicating that it's borosilicate? I paid $22 - a bit over what I'd expect to pay from a lab supply place with shipping.
 
go to cynmar.com next time They are cheap I dont know about customer service but I did get a reciept mailed to me then I got my beaker the next day. They're definitely legit!
 
It's a 2l.

I'll ask for a refund or shipped flask - their choice. I'll specify that the flask needs to be marked with something indicating it's borosilicate.

Now I've gotta track down that damned receipt.

I'll send 'em an email in the morning when I'm not so... chemically altered.
 
You put that on that burner? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer had in mind a bunsen burner when they said open flame.... this seems like getting upset that your camry, which the salesman said could take bumps just fine, broke after going off a 2ft jump.
 
Brew-boy said:
Myself I would never put a flask on that kind of burner. I do not think the flask is as fault here.
Click to expand...

Yep, borosilicate glass is certainly not indestructible. The stresses are caused by temperature gradients, where part of the glass is a much hotter than another part. Borosilicate doesn't have as much temperature expansion as standard glass, but it's not 0, and heating over a burner like that is likely more than it could take.
 
My wife is a chemical engineer and has spent extensive time in a lab so I asked her about your dilema. She said that you can purchase a flask that can go over a burner like that but they are a bit more robust than your normal erlenmeyer flask. The normal erlenmeyer flask is meant for a bunsen burner.

I do my starters a little differently. I have a large stainless steel tea kettle that I picked up at a garage sale, that is dedicated to starters. I first boil water in the kettle. Once it is boiling, I remove it from the heat and add DME to the tea kettle. I do this because I find that the DME clumps a whole lot more with cold water. Now, it's back to the stove to bring it back to a boil. The tea kettle makes the hot liquid very easy to handle. When I am done with the boil I cool the pot in a ice bath in my slop sink. When it is at pitching temp, I add the wort to the flask, pitch the yeast and cover the top with aluminum foil. No worries about breaking the flask unless it is dropped, which unfortunately has happened.
 
Call them, ask for a replacement...what have you got to loose?

Then don't use the new one in the same way...as previous post said, nothing is indestructable!

Most flasks are heated on a hot plate with pretty good heat distribution or heated directly via single burner flame, not sitting on steel rod surrounded by the flames of hell!!!! He, he!

:p

Good luck!
 
Boondoggie said:
You put that on that burner? I'm pretty sure the manufacturer had in mind a bunsen burner when they said open flame.... this seems like getting upset that your camry, which the salesman said could take bumps just fine, broke after going off a 2ft jump.
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Good thing you've never seen me drive :cross: Trust me, your average car can take a 2 ft jump just fine....

Sounds like I asked more of the flask than I should have. I think I'll chalk this one up to experience and order a new flask from cynmar.

I'm not entirely convinced the flask was borosilicate but it sounds like that wouldn't have mattered.

I've had some things happen in the last couple months which have made me question my own ethics. I pride myself on generally being an ethical person - in this case, if it was my fault it's not entirely fair to ask the vendor to replace the flask.
 
I heat my starters over a 10kbtu buner on nearly as low as it will go for a few minutes, then maybe up to 3kbtu at most. I would call and ask if it's borosilicate but if it is, I wouldn't rule out user error. If you have to use a burner that big, I'd put a shallow pot of water on there first, then the flask.
 
A flask made for starters should be able to take the heat. If it wasn't marked as such, I doubt it was. I'd complain. What could it hurt? Owner might not realize the difference or he could have been shipped the wrong stuff. Maybe he thought he found a source that 'was too good to be true'? Bring it to their attention to save others grief.
 
What follows is the e-mail I sent to the vendor. I'll update the thread with their response.

Greetings,
I recently purchased a 2000ml flask from your store (in person, not online). I don't have the receipt handy but can attempt to find it if need be. For reference sake the purchase was made on the ##### total purchase amount was ######.

When I purchased the flask I asked if it was borosilicate and was told that it was. Upon unwrapping the flask (bubble wrap) at home I was disappointed to find that there were no markings indicating brand or material type and had suspicions that the flask was not borosilicate. I consulted your website, found that the website description stated the flask was "temperature resistant glass." I opted to assume that the website was correct and use the flask as planned.

Last night (new years eve) I put a sugar solution in flask (was going to add to an apple creation) and prepared to boil. Placed flask with cold water and sugar solution on very low flame (brew rig burner). Applied low heat, gradually ramped up heat as temperature of solution increased but never got anywhere near full flame. Suddenly - bang, hiss, flask broken, flame extinguished, glass and sugar solution everywhere. Luckily neither my daughter (5) nor I were hurt. Burner size is 6", rated output at full flame is 30k btu.

My question is this: Are you positive that the flasks you are carrying are borosilicate? If so, I'll chalk this up to experience. If not, I'd like a refund for the flask. It's quite possible that I was asking far too much of the flask and the flask breakage was fully my fault, in which case the problem is with the user, not the equipment. It's also possible that I was sold inferior equipment. I'll accept your decision either way.

Pictures of broken flask and burner:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4232358023_0c8f7c7726.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2577/4233130606_f1a0049a18.jpg

Thanks,
Curtis ######
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I should have thought of this before. Might not be enough glass to tell, but see if you can detect ANY color in it from any angle. My guess would be edge on through a broken section would be easiest. Any hint of green would indicate soda lime..... Pyrex is almost colorless if I remember correct with perhaps a hint of brown.
 
Hermit said:
I should have thought of this before. Might not be enough glass to tell, but see if you can detect ANY color in it from any angle. My guess would be edge on through a broken section would be easiest. Any hint of green would indicate soda lime..... Pyrex is almost colorless if I remember correct with perhaps a hint of brown.
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good call, the borosilicate is clear, however, no guarantees that a cheaper glass wouldn't be
 
Based on the information you have provided it sounds like you have a defective flask and they should certainly replace it. If it was advertised as you have indicated then there was a failure and they should replace it, period. Calmly tell them what occurred and let them know that fortunately no one was injured by the failure of the flask but that you will expecty a replacement from them. Montanaandy
 
Vendor has agreed to replace flask and ship flask to me. I'm impressed. I'll shop there again. A vendor that will replace a flask when it's somewhere between possible and likely the customer caused the breakage with no questions is ok with me.

Vendor was Steinbarts.

Hi Curtis,
Our flasks are indeed borosilicate. You can boil in them using gas flame (don't recommend electric). Maybe the one you broke had a defect? We would be happy to replace the broken flask.
Cheers,
-Jeremy
Click to expand...
 
curtis97322 said:
Vendor has agreed to replace flask and ship flask to me. I'm impressed. I'll shop there again. A vendor that will replace a flask when it's somewhere between possible and likely the customer caused the breakage with no questions is ok with me.

Vendor was Steinbarts.
Click to expand...

Quick question. I thought about telling you to try using a double boiler set up on the new one, but it then occurred to me that you should have had enough liquid in the first one to buffer any 'shock' caused by heating? How full was the first one when it broke?
 
The flask was at least 1/2 full.

In the future I'll use a dry cast iron pan underneath the flask (I have a crapload of cast iron... need to sell a lot of it before I move). If the flask can't handle it then I'm not fit for starters.
 
The reason I seem to be a tad 'too interested' in this thread is that I make telescope mirrors and there was a discussion a while back. Pyrex is little more than a brand name now it seems and the stuff labeled with the brand is NOT what it was in the past. At least that was the discussion. People providing mirror blanks seemed to indicate that getting quality borosilicate glass in general was difficult. Imagine spending a few hundred bucks for a blank and spending months polishing it to a surface error measured in angstroms only to find out ........
 

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