My First Saison

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Salanis

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So I've done several batches under the guidance of a brewmaster and done a couple brews all my own (from the local outlet's "kits"). I'm getting ready to try my hand at my favorite beer style: Saison. I know this is a varied and interesting style, and I hear *tons* of conflicting advice, so I have a couple things I'd like to get advice on.

The Fermenter
: Single fermenter or move it to a secondary? I know the normal debate and have had good luck with just a single fermenter. Problem is, I have a 6.5gal bucket and a 5gal "better bottle" carboy and neither of those will work on its own. I'm thinking a 6gal better bottle aught to have enough overflow space to deal with the liveliness of a Saison yeast.

The Malt: Okay conflicting stories about the malt. I show up at the homebrew outlet and the guy there is telling me Saison's are primarily wheat based. This doesn't seem right. I've heard of a number using wheat, but not as the primary fermentable. Getting a bunch of wheat extract seems a bit odd.

Partial mash or extract: I'd kind of like to try partial mash, but I keep hearing how if I do that, I need to get a false-bottom mash tun. I hear other things about just using bags. I know it's not "as good", but I used that when under direction of a brewmaster, and it seems like a lot of people have used that to good effect.


Any advice people can give would be great. Thanks in advance. I apologize if this is the wrong section of the board for this.
 

The Fermenter
: Single fermenter. 6 gallon better bottle should work. I'd use a blowoff tube.

The Malt: Saisons are typically pilsner based. I like up to 10% wheat for complexity / head retention.

Partial mash or extract: Partial mash really isn't required as there are not a lot of crystal malts in a saison. You might do a small mash of pilsner + munich for some character.
 
Salanis,

Just finished a Saison, the fermentation wasn't TOO crazy. I agree 100% with wonderbread. The 6 Gal fermenter will be fine, and you can always rig a blowoff preventer. I also use a small percentage of wheat, but it is definitely NOT a "wheaty" beer. Just use it to help get the crisp, dry finish you should be looking for. Finally, the partial mash would be fun to try if you have only done extract batches in the past. Brew in a Bag is also a great option to try out all-grain and see if the extra time/effort is worth it for you.
 
Nothing wrong in using a bucket for primary. I'd probably move to a secondary after 4-6 weeks, but it really depends on the yeast. If it finishes in that much time, why worry?

I have seen a very tasty commercial Saison have up to 25% wheat product. That is high end and not what I'd call a wheat-based beer.

I did not have a problem with my blowoff, but then I didn't ferment in the 90 degree + range that the brewer recommended. The extra headspace in the bucket may have helped. I think that if you keep the wheat down, you should be ok there.
 
Why will the 6.5gallon bucket not work?

The plastic is air permeable. It would work for a couple of days for primary, but not as a sole fermenting vessel. From the research I've done, I think there is more risk to my beer from re-racking than from letting it sit on the yeast. With a 6-gal carboy, I should be able to have a single fermenter.

I've got a 1/2" blow-off tube, not sure if I should pick up one of the larger diameter (1"?) tubes.


So after checking different recipes and descriptions, I'm leaning towards this for a recipe:

5# Light LME or 4.5# Light DME
5# Belgian Pils
2# 10L Crystal
1# Wheat

Then probably hop with Tettnanger or Hallertauer (for European, Spicy-ish, and Smooth):
1oz. each at 60, 15, and 5.
 
The plastic is air permeable. It would work for a couple of days for primary, but not as a sole fermenting vessel.

While true that the plastic bucket is permeable to oxygen more so than a better bottle or glass vessel it still makes a fine fermentor. You would need to leave your beer in it for months before oxidation would be a noticeable problem.

GT
 
So after checking different recipes and descriptions, I'm leaning towards this for a recipe:

5# Light LME or 4.5# Light DME
5# Belgian Pils
2# 10L Crystal
1# Wheat

Then probably hop with Tettnanger or Hallertauer (for European, Spicy-ish, and Smooth):
1oz. each at 60, 15, and 5.

Way too much crystal. You could probably do with 0 crystal. Also, you might consider adding 1-2lbs of sugar to help it get dry, dry, dry.
 
If you want a Saison, I'd listen to the Jamil Show's Episode on it. The recipe he gives just won me a gold medal with it.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Saison-The-Jamil-Show-09-10-07

The secret to a great Saison is exactly what Beeerific just said: You want that sucker dry as you can get it. It has so much character that residual sweetness just makes it overbearing.

Fermentation is key - start in the 60's and ramp it up - over the course of one to two weeks, I got up to 85 degrees and held it there for about 2 additional weeks. Once it hit 85 I swirled the carboy twice a day to get the yeast going again.

Also, like Beerific said, you want to add sugar - but not until the main bulk of fermentation is done. If you add it too early, the yeast will give up eating the maltose and you won't be able to get dry - I think I added simple syrup two different times - once before I hit 85 and once after.

My entire ferment was done in a primary.

Hope this helps!
 
If you can, try and get a hold of some pilsner extract. Light extract works, and I've used it before, but you really want a strong pilsner base for a saison, imo. And Beerific is right. Cut back on some of the crystal.
 
I use a lb of belgian wheat in my saison. Gives it nice character and adds to the tartness. No crystal.

I HIGHLY recommend using Wyeast's 3711 saison yeast. It works fast, makes great flavor, doesn't stall out and gets the beer as dry as sand. I'd also add a bit of sugar to it just to dry it out as much as possible and fit to style.

Glad you're not using a bunch of spices and crap in it.
 
Okay, after re-listening to the Jamil show, I'm reformulating this:

5# Pils Malt Extract
5# Pils
1# Wheat
1# Munich
1# Sugar

So... do I add the sugar into the wort or add it halfway through fermentation? Maybe 1# in the wort and an additional 1# Simple Syrup when I'm cranking the temps back up.

As for yeast, the local brewing supply outlet only has WL568. I suppose I could order the WY3711, but I'm not terribly patient. Maybe I'll track some down for my *next* saison.

Glad you're not using a bunch of spices and crap in it.

I'm philosophically resistant to adding spices. I'm actually looking forward to crafting a spicy red holiday ale that doesn't use any added spice, but gets it all from a good yeast blend and the right hops.
 
Okay, I'm still getting confused about what to do about the fermenter. I'm hearing a lot of conflicting things about how O2 permeable buckets are and how long to leave beer in them. I'm hearing disparate things about necessary headroom in a carboy.

My 6.5gal bucket is my bottling bucket, so it wouldn't make sense to use it as my only fermenter. So either a big bucket, or larger carboy.
 
Buckets are fine. No need to worry about it unless you're leaving it in there for months.

I added the sugar to my saison just as the ferment was starting to slow down.
 
It'll work at room temp, but you'll get more of the esters you want if it's a little warmer than room temp.


I get plenty at room temps with 3711, no spices needed and for extra aroma dry hops come into play.

After drinking gallons of French/Belgian saisons I tend to keep'em true to style and not americanized (overly bitter-overspiced-esters/phenolic).


Just had this last sunday and it was very nice & clean tasting with a flowery aroma.
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/10260/45413
clicky>
 
I have a saison in my bucket fermenter right now. Used 3711 and tasted my hydrometer reading yesterday. Has plenty of spicy esters fermenting at room temp. I used the recipe from Brewing Classic Styles. Can't wait to drink.
 
Looking for advice on a Saison too. I brewed the Saison from Jamil's BCS last Fri. with minor modifications. Used Wyeast 3724 - 3711 not available locally. ! lb of cane sugar at the end of the boil as per the recipe. BB carboy has been in a water bath at 82-83' from the start - this is as warm as I can get it with the aquarium heater in a 35 gal Rubbermaid. Overshot the OG a bit and ended up at 1.080. Took a reading yesterday and I am down to 1.042-1.040 after one week but there is very little activity. So I am in the "stuck zone" that this yeast is famous for. Have been rousing the carboy/yeast roughly 2 x daily.

Should I continue to rouse the yeast and be patient and keep the beer at 83'? Should I add additional yeast (I have 3711 on order - should receive it Tue.). Should I add more sugar? Thanks, Montanaandy
 
Should I continue to rouse the yeast and be patient and keep the beer at 83'? Should I add additional yeast (I have 3711 on order - should receive it Tue.). Should I add more sugar? Thanks, Montanaandy

I'd keep it where it is and let it ride out as plan A, though I wouldn't be rousing it nearly as much. Once every couple of days would be the most I'd do and that would just be a gentle swirl. As plan B, I'd add the 3711 if you really can't get it to finish out or even just another clean fermenting yeast since you get most of the flavors in the first few days of fermenting.

I wouldn't add sugar because that won't do a thing to get the ferment going, IMO. Yeast can eat up that kind of sugar much easier than maltose so even if it eats the sugar, that's not going to help it with the more complicated maltose.

Other posters: I'm sure you get plenty of saisony goodness from 3711 at 72F since it's a kickass yeast, but I like the little bit more I get out of in the upper 70's. :mug: to each their own.
 
After drinking gallons of French/Belgian saisons I tend to keep'em true to style and not americanized (overly bitter-overspiced-esters/phenolic).

I'm with you on traditional saisons and not spicing them artificially, although I tend to make mine a bit higher in gravity than the low-alcohol brew a traditional saison is.
 
I'm with you on traditional saisons and not spicing them artificially, although I tend to make mine a bit higher in gravity than the low-alcohol brew a traditional saison is.


Brewing this as I type:
Paradise Saison

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50
Anticipated OG: 1.048
Anticipated SRM: 3.3
Anticipated IBU: 22.4



94.7% Pilsener
5.3% Wheat Malt


11g.Goldings - E.K. - - 60 min.
22g.Styrian Goldings - - 2 min.
12g.Czech Saaz - - 2 min.
12g.Goldings - E.K. - - 2 min.


Yeast
-----
Wyeast 3711


Mash Schedule
-------------
Saccharification Rest Temp : 148 Time: 90

Notes
-----

2g Grains of Paradise last 2min of boil

OMG theres 2 grams of spice LOL:mug:

This is to grow a yeast cake for a 1.060 batch followed by a 1.070 batch, basically a 5gal starter of a summer Thirst Quencher
 
2g Grains of Paradise last 2min of boil

OMG theres 2 grams of spice LOL:mug:

calculon_no.jpg


:D
 
Saison is brewed and in the fermentor now. We'll see how it goes.

I added the sugar to my saison just as the ferment was starting to slow down.

So... a bit of sugar just as the ferment is starting to slow down. Do you boil it to simple syrup first? What exactly is the effect of this on the beer?

Also, you'd mentioned something about agitating the carboy partway through. When do you this? And why?
 
So... a bit of sugar just as the ferment is starting to slow down. Do you boil it to simple syrup first? What exactly is the effect of this on the beer?

I dissolved it in a little bit of water, cooled it and poured it in. Just enough water to dissolve it in. Doesn't have to be as thick as a syrup. I think I used somewhere around 8 ounces.

The sugar helps dry the beer out. Saisons should be very light and dry and the sugar helps with that.

Also, you'd mentioned something about agitating the carboy partway through. When do you this? And why?

That's just if you get a stuck ferment. If you used 3711, you probably don't have to worry about this, but some other saison yeasts can get balky and stop working before they should. You can rouse the yeast by giving the fermenter a very gentle swirl. That will get some of the yeast on top of the cake up into suspension again and can help it finish out. Don't do it unless it's really necessary. Often just bumping the temp up a couple degrees can restart the works as well.
 
I dissolved it in a little bit of water, cooled it and poured it in. Just enough water to dissolve it in. Doesn't have to be as thick as a syrup. I think I used somewhere around 8 ounces.

Okay, I mostly was asking that to see if you boiled to kill nasties in the water, which I presume you did.

That's just if you get a stuck ferment. If you used 3711, you probably don't have to worry about this, but some other saison yeasts can get balky and stop working before they should.

Yeah, I was only able to get my hands on WL568. I'll keep an eye on things. I've got a heat belt for it though, so it should be fine. I've also heard that WL568 isn't as prone to stalling as WL565.
 
Okay, I mostly was asking that to see if you boiled to kill nasties in the water, which I presume you did.

Yeah. I don't actually boil the sugar. I get the water up to a good fast boil, dump in the sugar and then take it right off the heat and stir it in. I've done this with both sugar additions and bottling sugar and haven't had any issues.

Yeah, I was only able to get my hands on WL568. I'll keep an eye on things. I've got a heat belt for it though, so it should be fine. I've also heard that WL568 isn't as prone to stalling as WL565.

That's because it's a blend of yeasts. Saison yeast and a belgian ale yeast in the same vial. You don't get quite the same flavor as from a pure saison strain, but you don't get the finicky ferment that WL's saison yeast gives you.
 
I'll have to check my recipe. I am not sure I added any sugar. It's been a few weeks, so I might be boned now. Last time I tasted it seemed a bit dry, but not REAL dry. FG was not obtained yet either though.
 
Between the lb of sugar and the Wyeast 3711, my saison went from 1.067 right down to 1.000. Dry as a freakin' bone!
 
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