Ok, brewing a red with Ryan_pa in 2 weeks.... is there anything special about a starter for roselare? dont aover power the bugs or anything....
Starter with Roselare?
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sundowner
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I wouldn't make a starter for it.
simcoe4life
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There's no need for a starter. Pitch it and let the mix work its magic. For Flanders Red inspired brews I primary with Roselare for one month.
tprokop
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They work hard to get the blend of bugs right in that pitchable packet. Because the different organisms in there will reproduce at different rates, a starter will screw up the ratios that they use for the blend. If you're making a big beer and are really worried about it, you could always pitch two, but I would never make a starter for a blend.
Are you using Roselare for your primary strain? If not, you probably don't need a starter at all even if it is a big beer.
Are you using Roselare for your primary strain? If not, you probably don't need a starter at all even if it is a big beer.
Ryan_PA
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At least for my half, I am using roselare for the primary and for aging. I already have another flanders red going, and the first roselare pitch did not get the fermentation going for 4 days. I pitched my other smack pack, the one intended for brew Clap posted on, and the ferment took off in 12 hours. It may have just been a delay from the first pitch, might have been the extra sacc in the second pitch, but whatever it was, it took off.
Does anyone remember reading something from vinnie about an 80%-20% starter of wort to apple juice for strains with bugs in them? I think I read something a few years back, but cannot find it now.
Does anyone remember reading something from vinnie about an 80%-20% starter of wort to apple juice for strains with bugs in them? I think I read something a few years back, but cannot find it now.
OP
OP
From reading about other Flanders brews.... apparently it just take 4-5 days to kick off...
sundowner
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Brewed mine on a Saturday and it was going strong in 36 hours. The Roeselare blend has everything you need for fermentation...the yeast and the bacteria. I think it's easy to overthink some of these wild brews. I'm keeping it simple and gonna leave it in the primary for 'at least' 6 months, then oak it for another six months.
babalu87
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I would like to have some to re-use on other brews.
Maybe saving the dregs is one way of doing this?
Maybe saving the dregs is one way of doing this?
OP
OP
I dunno, might be interesting to try though.... a 6 month yeastcake 
babalu87
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I've never used it, is there anything at the bottom after a month or two?
Does it need much in the way of headspace?
I was going to go with US-05 until it was about half done and then rack onto the Roselare, maybe I'll just go all Roselare and use the dregs later.
Does it need much in the way of headspace?
I was going to go with US-05 until it was about half done and then rack onto the Roselare, maybe I'll just go all Roselare and use the dregs later.
sundowner
Well-Known Member
I've had mine going for 2.5 months. It has a funky pellicle and yes there's a settling at the bottom. I don't see why it would need any more headspace than a regular beer. I've had a steady but not a violent fermentation.
You really don't need an extra ale yeast fermentation. The Roeselare blend has it all..no need for anything else, no starter needed...just pitch it.
babalu87
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I'm wondering if it needs LESS headspace
IE can I use a 5 gallon carboy (I have one that holds 5.5 gallons) and leave it there for the year (or more)
Understood no other yeast is necessary but I was thinking of trying what Jamil suggests in his book as one of the fermentation methods for that beer.
Ryan_PA
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It depends on the flavor profile you are looking for. Jamil thinks that Rodenbach Grand Cru is the extreme end of the flanders red style in sourness, he does not care for it too much. That is why he uses a clean ale strain in the primary. I disagree and really like RGC, and use the Roselare all the way through.
sundowner
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I think it would be a close call in a 5.5 gallon carboy, depending on your volume. I'm going with Jeff Sparrow over Jamil on this one and using nothing but the Roeselare blend. Your choice of course...
OP
OP
how long will this sit in primary? 6 months? the full year?
sundowner
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You're going to get varying opinions on that too. I can only speak for myself, but I plan to leave it for 6 months, then rack to secondary with oak cubes for at least another 6 months.
tprokop
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I rack after only about a week for my flemish reds, as Wild Brews suggests getting Reds off of the trub for bulk aging, so I started that one in a 6.5 gallon bucket.
I have done lambics in a 5 gallon carboy by separating out about half a gallon into a 1 gallon jug and then adding it back after the initial ferment is done. Again, IIRC, Wild Brews recommends keeping lambics on the trub throughout ferment.
I have done lambics in a 5 gallon carboy by separating out about half a gallon into a 1 gallon jug and then adding it back after the initial ferment is done. Again, IIRC, Wild Brews recommends keeping lambics on the trub throughout ferment.
Ryan_PA
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I am going to have to rack my Wild Brews flanders red off after 2 weeks to pitch the Jamil red on the yeast cake. The LHBS is out of Roselare, and the strain is supposed to get better each generation, up to generation 6.
babalu87
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So that sort of puts the theory of making a starter out to pasture no?
If Gen 2,3,4,5 are good then making a starter and saving some is just fine too.
It must freeze just fine as well.
Ryan_PA
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sundowner
Well-Known Member
Jeff actually recommends leaving it until visible signs of fermentation have finished. That's much longer than a week.
I just pitched my Roselare blend last weekend on my Flanders Red. I asked Wyeast about using a starter--they specifically told me "no." Of course, I can't help but meddle--so, I added maybe half a pack of dry, non-rehydrated Notty when I pitched the Roselare pack, just to help the primary stage Sacc. fermentation along. I'm sure it wasn't necessary, but I figured "what the hell." I'm not exactly a stickler for the rules or BJCP guidelines for that matter...
OP
OP
dc metro? nice avatar too
I am going to revive this old thread. If I want to use Roselare all the way through, but I also want to add blackberries, when would be the best time to add blackberries to a flemish brown?
I was thinking about primary normal with Abbey yeast, then transfer when done and add the blackberries and the roselare and let it sit for 6-8 months. Then I was going to transfer over and put on oak chips for 6 months. What do yall think about this? Thanks.
I was thinking about primary normal with Abbey yeast, then transfer when done and add the blackberries and the roselare and let it sit for 6-8 months. Then I was going to transfer over and put on oak chips for 6 months. What do yall think about this? Thanks.
weremichael
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I have made successful flemish brews with the roeselare blend by pitching it directly into the primary and waiting about a month and transferring to secondary (with boiled oak cubes) and letting it sit for about seven months. I would then put in your fruit after seven months to a year. I've also made some very, very sour beers on the old dregs of the flemish brews.
The only time you should primary with a sacc strain is if you are going to age your beer in a barrel.
The only time you should primary with a sacc strain is if you are going to age your beer in a barrel.
weremichael
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This is based off of what I have learned from Russian River and Jolly Pumpkin. The primary in steel is with sacc. and then they put their sours into barrels. Well cared for barrels allow o2 into the process and have a very healthy supply of bugs, which makes the beers funkier. If they didn't do the sacc. primary, the beers would be too funky.
When fermenting in a glass/plastic carboy, the o2 intake is so low that the sacc. primary is an unnecessary step. All the sacc. that you need for fermentation is in the Roeselare blend. Also, if you did ferment with a sacc. strain first, it would not leave enough sugars for the bugs to make the beer funky.
dcHokie
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To clarify, you are referring to Roselare specifically, since its a blend including sacch (& lacto, pedio, brett, sherry, etc), correct?
Just to reiterate what has been stated above, if reusing the cake without adding more bugs or sacc gets even better results than the first use, then making a starter doesn't seem like it can hurt at all. Am I missing something?
bottlebomber
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I don't think it's necessary. I recently brewed a split batch 10 gallons total. I was having a rare moment of cheapskate-ness and only bought one (very fresh) pack. I had a large starter of Belgian yeast ready to go, but I split the pack of Roeselare between the two buckets a day before I pitched the big yeast. I had krausen overnight. Now, 3 months later, both the buckets look like this.
I'm on gen 3 of my Roeselare yeast. Gen 1 produced a fantastic oud bruin that is in month 9 right now. Gen 2 produced a berlinerweisse that took only 1 month to taste nice and sour. Gen 3 went into a pilsner malt based sour that was very sour after only 1 month, and I plan on giving it another 5 months on the cake before adding some fruit to age for another few months.
So the bugs get more and more effective with each pitch. All depends on what you're going for.
CadillacAndy
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moti_mo said:
How long has each generation been working for? The full aging time, or are you racking to secondary and reusing it after a month or two? I'm trying to get a handle on how quickly the bugs and Brett dominate.
The oud bruin was aged in primary on the yeast/bacteria cake for 6 months before transferring to secondary. I then put the berlinerweisse onto the oud bruin cake immediately, and this aged for one month before bottling. I then put the most recent sour onto this yeast cake, and its been going for about two months. I plan to let it go to six months before transferring to secondary with fruit. Not sure if I'm going to push it one more generation, I'll probably wait and see if this third batch has gotten ridiculously sour by six months.
CadillacAndy
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moti_mo said:
Thanks! Much appreciated.
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