So I'm thinking of building an aeration wand...

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Anthony_Lopez

Anthony_Lopez

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At my company we have a good bit of copper tubing available as well as fittings, etc.

My basic design would be a straight copper wand capped at one end with an airstone (hopefully stainless).

I would hook up the other end to a simple aquarium pump and run from there with the fittings, etc.

Think this seems easy enough. Anyone have a better suggestion?

I didn't see much in the DIY links.
 
Here's an idea. This is from northernbrewer. - $2.99 each

You could fab somethin similar to this. I put this on the end of a 3/8 hose clipped on the side of the fermentor.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/aeration.html

siphon-sprayer.jpg
 
Why not just get a degassing wand? It'll be cheaper, have no maintenance, and do just as good a job as the air pump.
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
At my company we have a good bit of copper tubing available as well as fittings, etc.

My basic design would be a straight copper wand capped at one end with an airstone (hopefully stainless).

I would hook up the other end to a simple aquarium pump and run from there with the fittings, etc.

Think this seems easy enough. Anyone have a better suggestion?

I didn't see much in the DIY links.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good idea. I have a wand from William's Brewing, but if I could have made one I would have.

S78[1].jpg
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
degassing wand? explain...
Click to expand...


When you have wine and want it to be still (not sparkeling) you use this. I think Mr x misunderstood what you wanted to do.

It goes in a hand drill and whips up the fluid to release CO2. Its a 24" long shaft , 3/16" diameter and has two folding wings on the the end. The wings fold so you can get it in the carboy.

I don't think you want this.
 
Schlenkerla said:
When you have wine and want it to be still (not sparkeling) you use this. I think Mr x misunderstood what you wanted to do.

It goes in a hand drill and whips up the fluid to release CO2. Its a 24" long shaft , 3/16" diameter and has two folding wings on the the end. The wings fold so you can get it in the carboy.

I don't think you want this.
Click to expand...

Please explain this to me, because I don't understand your point. Degassing wine and aerating wort can be done by the same mechanism -- agitation. Why wouldn't a degassing wand work?
 
I was under the impression that mixing/agitating your wort prior to pitching was not sufficient for a healthy yeast count. The use of the diffusion stone on the end of the wand puts very small (2 micron) amounts of air into the wort which is more efficient for aeration because the gasses can be absorbed more easily than by agitation. I realize that using pure oxygen is best, however I'm not going to spend the money on the tank, regulator, etc when I can build one for about 12 dollars that will work almost as well.
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
I was under the impression that mixing/agitating your wort prior to pitching was not sufficient for a healthy yeast count. The use of the diffusion stone on the end of the wand puts very small (2 micron) amounts of air into the wort which is more efficient for aeration because the gasses can be absorbed more easily than by agitation. I realize that using pure oxygen is best, however I'm not going to spend the money on the tank, regulator, etc when I can build one for about 12 dollars that will work almost as well.
Click to expand...
Wyeast likes 10ppm O2. By their measure, the best you can do by shaking or air pump is 8ppm. So the air pump won't be any better than agitation. From my experience, the degassing wand is the best agitating method.
 
jds said:
Please explain this to me, because I don't understand your point. Degassing wine and aerating wort can be done by the same mechanism -- agitation. Why wouldn't a degassing wand work?
Click to expand...


The aeration from a wand & stone will put in oxygen to the wort from an O2 gas tank diffused through a stone. It takes 30-60 seconds and is very effective.

Degassing wands remove CO2 w/ minimal agitation. In wine you don't want to oxidize the wine-must from over agitation but you want the CO2 out of the must.

Neither methods employ much agitation. Therefore a degassing rod would be a very inefficient method of aerating wort. It could do it though.

Syphoning w/ a flared nozzle would be better for aeration than a degassing wand but the O2 tank w/ the defusion stone is the best.

In aeration you are forcing in O2 where it doesn't want to go naturally.

In degassing you release CO2 where it wants to go naturally.

I hope this helps.

FYI - You always want well aerated wort starting out at pitching. It must be done cool though. NOT hot.
 
You have obviously never used a degassing wand on a cordless drill. It whips the wort like crazy. That flared nozzle won't even come close.
 
I guess the only thing that doesnt make sense to me with your wand is that you aren't actually adding oxygen or air into the wort. From what I saw from the pic, its just like a paint mixer. Unless there is some part of the wand that actually puts O2 into the wort, it doesnt seem more effective than actually diffusing into the wort. It may be QUITE effective at mixing the wort so your malts are more suspended in the wort and not collecting on the bottom at the time of your pitch.

I'm not trying to argue or dispute your methods, I'm just trying to save some $$ and make the most efficient aeration tool I can.

Thanks for the info! :mug:
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
I was under the impression that mixing/agitating your wort prior to pitching was not sufficient for a healthy yeast count. The use of the diffusion stone on the end of the wand puts very small (2 micron) amounts of air into the wort which is more efficient for aeration because the gasses can be absorbed more easily than by agitation. I realize that using pure oxygen is best, however I'm not going to spend the money on the tank, regulator, etc when I can build one for about 12 dollars that will work almost as well.
Click to expand...

If you can build the wand, you'll be saving yourself some bucks right there. The tanks are only $8 each and they last for several brews. I bet if you shopped around you could get the little left-hand regulator pretty cheap, too.

O2 is nice. Its easy to control, very fast (40 seconds or so and you are done) and there are no worries that you under-aerated.
 
Schlenkerla said:
The aeration from a wand & stone will put in oxygen to the wort from an O2 gas tank diffused through a stone. It takes 30-60 seconds and is very effective.

Degassing wands remove CO2 w/ minimal agitation. In wine you don't want to oxidize the wine-must from over agitation but you want the CO2 out of the must.

Neither methods employ much agitation. Therefore a degassing rod would be a very inefficient method of aerating wort. It could do it though.

Syphoning w/ a flared nozzle would be better for aeration than a degassing wand but the O2 tank w/ the defusion stone is the best.

In aeration you are forcing in O2 where it doesn't want to go naturally.

In degassing you release CO2 where it wants to go naturally.

I hope this helps.

FYI - You always want well aerated wort starting out at pitching. It must be done cool though. NOT hot.
Click to expand...


Thats exactly how I'm looking at this... Mixing/Agitation is not the same as aeration, though both methods help in developing a healthy yeast pitch.

Basic physics: Liquids are denser than gases. A gas will rise above the liquids at normal gravity due to their respective properties. If that wand had a difuser on the end of it, this discussion would be done!!

:mug:

I think I know what I'm going to make now!!
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
I guess the only thing that doesnt make sense to me with your wand is that you aren't actually adding oxygen or air into the wort. From what I saw from the pic, its just like a paint mixer. Unless there is some part of the wand that actually puts O2 into the wort, it doesnt seem more effective than actually diffusing into the wort. It may be QUITE effective at mixing the wort so your malts are more suspended in the wort and not collecting on the bottom at the time of your pitch.

I'm not trying to argue or dispute your methods, I'm just trying to save some $$ and make the most efficient aeration tool I can.

Thanks for the info! :mug:
Click to expand...
By violently agitating the wort, you are adding O2. The air pump will not be able to do any better, because it is also using air. The only way to increase your ppm is with an O2 tank.

The next time I do this, I will make a video. It will be quite clear then.
 
Still doesn't make sense to me. Yes, you are agitating your wort with that wand, but how are you imparting oxygen into the middle of your liquid without force (pumping).

Perhaps you know about fluid dynamics than I do, but it just doesnt make sense.
 
mr x said:
You have obviously never used a degassing wand on a cordless drill. It whips the wort like crazy. That flared nozzle won't even come close.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. Get the flared ears of the wand up near the surface of the wort, and you'll definitely get air entrainment.

Personally, I've had good results simply using a wire whip and good old elbow grease prior to draining the boil kettle. By "Good Results", I mean onset of fermenting within 6 hours or so (usually overnight, while I'm asleep), vigorous fermenting, and good attenuation with low off-flavors.

While I'm sure an oxygen tank and airstone would improve upon that, I wonder if it's not past the point of diminishing returns for lower-gravity (1.060 and under) beers.
 
That's how fluids get oxygenated. Agitation. We are not talking about stirring. We are making egg whites here.
 
mr x said:
You have obviously never used a degassing wand on a cordless drill. It whips the wort like crazy. That flared nozzle won't even come close.
Click to expand...

Yes - It depends on the speed. You also have to break the surface alot to induce O2. Otherwise your just moving wort for a few minutes. Its just surface aeration. Its different than a stirrer thats left on for hours when making starters.

The nozzle will gradually get the wort aerated top to bottom as every drop has to pass by it as it goes to fermentor.

In general a degassing wand it used on wine and its intended to minimize oxidation at slower speeds.

If it works for you. - Fine. Keep doing it... :)
 
That's not really correct either. If you had ever done this you would know the difference. It is not merely surface aeration. While the air being integrated is at the surface, that is no different than the nozzle. Once again, the entire wort is whipped, not just the top. You won't get better than 8 ppm with the nozzle, by shaking, by wine whip, or by air stone. But the whip is far easier than shaking, and cheaper than the air set-up.
 
mr x said:
If you had ever done this you would know the difference. It is not merely surface aeration. /QUOTE]

I've done it before, and I disagree with some of what you said, but I don't really care at this point. Both of use will do what works for us and have different recomendations for others.

Initially, I thought you misunderstood him and was thinking degassing. That's why I corrected you. That's all. I understand why you made the suggestion.

:mug:
Click to expand...
 
Does anyone have an option for me that won't lead to 3 pages of argument?


I haven't seen any information regarding the degassing wand for aeration, while there is a multitude of recommendations regarding the use of an aeration wand or something similar.

Just curious, where'd you get your information regarding aeration, Mr. X? I'd like to peruse it if I may.

:mug:
 
I think it's Orfy who has a piece of copper pipe drilled with a bunch of holes that he uses when he transfers from the kettle to the fermenter. It aerates and then he has it splashing into the fermenter, too.

I've used the degassing wand idea in the past, and I thought it worked better than stirring by hand or shaking the carboy/bucket. I've been using an aquarium pump with a filter, and it's pour/splash when I siphon to the fermenter as well, and it's been working fine for me.
 
NoClueBrewMaster said:
Does anyone have an option for me that won't lead to 3 pages of argument?


I haven't seen any information regarding the degassing wand for aeration, while there is a multitude of recommendations regarding the use of an aeration wand or something similar.

Just curious, where'd you get your information regarding aeration, Mr. X? I'd like to peruse it if I may.

:mug:
Click to expand...
Start at the Wyeast website, and root around for oxygenation info. I'll try to locate the info.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

there it is
 
To summarize some good information scattered throughout this thread, any means by which you entrain air into your cooled wort is considered aeration. The maximum amount of O2 you can introduce to your wort is 8 ppm, which is essentially the atmospheric concentration. 10 - 15 ppm is recommended for normal to high gravity brews, and to achieve that level you must inject pure oxygen using an oxygenation system.

A good FAQ with many of these points can be found on the Wyeast Labs website:
http://wyeastlab.com/faqs.cfm?website=1

I don't remember the source off the top of my head, but I believe the guys at White Labs did some trials and found that shaking your carboy vigorously for two minutes was as good an aeration technique as any. I would guess that using a mixer (e.g., paint mixer or wine degasser on the end of a drill) for a few minutes would be equally successful. I don't know how well aeration wands fare -- IIRC, they don't do as good a job because there is less entrainment of air, only passive exposure to air.

EDIT: mr x beat me to it. His URL below is the study I was thinking of.
mr x said:
Start at the Wyeast website, and root around for oxygenation info. I'll try to locate the info.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

there it is
Click to expand...
 
ty much!

I just read the entire thread on beer brewing yeasts on the Wyeast page. I think I'll wait til I get an O2 tank for this wand...


Thanks All!!! :mug:
 
Holy crap Batman!

I just pour 3-4 gallons back and forth 30-50 times, the whole 5.5 gallons once through a strainer, and I spend a minute shaking the carboy.

It always worked for me.
 
There are pros and cons to every method. Some methods are more work intensive, some are more likely to expose your wort to contamination, some are more expensive, etc.

One thing that hasn't even been asked yet is whether or not you are doing full boils or partial boils with unboiled top up water. If you're adding any fresh water back in, you're already adding oxygen back in.

If you are doing full boils, aggitation methods are borderline good enough and people who use these methods will argue all day long that they make great beer. It's probably true most of the time. You better be pitching enough cells and not into a big Imperial something...

I use O2 like many others and it's slightly more expensive but is generally fool proof and less manual labor. It also has the least chance of contamination given the amount of o2 you get out of it. If only someone had a line on cheap lefty regulators huh... I bet there's a warehouse in China with a billion of them.
 
Hey, you know with all the guys that do custom machining here, how about making a connector that threads onto the O2 tanks and has a 1/4" Female NPT on them. Bang out about 50, and sell them to all of us for $10 each. I'm waiting...
 
My $0.02

The most important point on the wyeast site is that 8ppm is saturation when using air, and it occurs in under a minute of swishing the wort.

I find that I can create hundreds of thousands of tiny bubbles by swirling clockwise a few times, then reversing. Done this way, agitation requires a minimal effort, and I therefore prefer not to deal with extra cost/equipment/sanitizing.

I tried the little plastic thing posted before, and I threw it away. The wyeast site confirms what I suspected: it is inadequate.

If at some point I suspect inadequate aeration, I will probably just get an O2 tank and then use it to fill the head space before swishing. Seems like the simplest solution.
 
Shaking the carboy works fine if you are comfortable doing that. I've also tried the plastic end-of-the-siphon-hose thing and I don't think it does much actual aeration.

Regarding the O2 systems, I have been working on my setup for a while. I found an O2 regulator on eBay for roughly $30 after factoring in the shipping--not a steal but not a bad price. Here's the catch... it has LH threads on the bottle fitting a 9/16"-18 RH threaded inverted flare on the output. Basically that means that only fittings designed for O2 in welding applications will fit--and they are a PITA to find w/o buying a whole O2 hose w/ fittings already installed. I eventually found the proper fitting at Fastenal, but suffice it to say I would rather have paid the extra couple of bucks to get a regulator that already has the standard barb fitting. In fact, by the time you figure in the cost of the stone, regulator, etc. it's better to just suck it up and pay $45-55 for the whole O2 setup minus the bottle. And look for one that has a wand or use a racking cane so you can get the stone to the bottom of the fermenter when you oxygenate.

I think the wine degassers would do a fine job--as good as any of the other "air" methods. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
 
rickk said:
My $0.02

The most important point on the wyeast site is that 8ppm is saturation when using air, and it occurs in under a minute of swishing the wort.

I find that I can create hundreds of thousands of tiny bubbles by swirling clockwise a few times, then reversing. Done this way, agitation requires a minimal effort, and I therefore prefer not to deal with extra cost/equipment/sanitizing.
Click to expand...

I have a feeling that the swirling you describe is a bit less vigorous than the "shaking" they describe on the site. I'm not saying it's not enough, but I don't think it's 8ppm. Just my guess. I mean, a frothy foam on the surface says nothing of DO in the entire wort.
 

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