Electrical Brewery Build, input please!

I am in the process of starting to acquire pieces for an all-electric keggle brewery. I am wanting a HERMS setup and will be utilizing some existing equipment. Here is a list of components that I have so far, please tell me what else I need, one of which is a control box I know.

ON HAND
2 un-cut kegs
1 keggle with 1/2 barb & themometer (Brew Kettle)
False Bottom
March pump
Copper Heat Exchange
2 Ranco Controllers

What I Think I need
2 weldless ball valves
2 weldless thermowell kits for ranco controller probes
5 Quick Connector 1/2" MPT
3 Quick Connector Barbed
2 Quick Connector Barbed Elbow
1 Input manifold (Tee)
2 1/2" Ball-Valves
10 ft of 1/2" Braided Hose (ft.)
2 Sets of SS Hose Clamps (4 per Set)
2 Heating Elements w/ cord and plug (1 for HLT & 1 for Brew Kettle)
Electrical Box Control to plug everything into (I need direction here)

Can anybody give me some good advice. I can familar with electrical wiring and can do my own DIY. Just a good direction would be advantagous!

Thanks!

http://theelectricbrewery.com/

I think this is what you need.

you can't go wrong with Kal's website... shown above

I would go with PID controllers and SSR's instead of those Ranco on/off controllers.

Sawdustguy said:

I would go with PID controllers and SSR's instead of those Ranco on/off controllers.

Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, but I am looking for cost effective as well as something that is mobile/can be stored. I have seen Kal's website, and it is a very nice setup, just not what I am wanting.

Using the Ranco instead of a pid/ssr will limit the wattage of your heating elements.
Ranco relay is rated as follows 120 vac = 16 amps or 240 vac = 8 amps
Either 120 vac or 240 vac - you will be limited to about 1800 watts for your elements. I don't that would work even for a 5 gallon batch.

stevehaun said:

Using the Ranco instead of a pid/ssr will limit the wattage of your heating elements.
Ranco relay is rated as follows 120 vac = 16 amps or 240 vac = 8 amps
Either 120 vac or 240 vac - you will be limited to about 1800 watts for your elements. I don't that would work even for a 5 gallon batch.

Click to expand...

Are you sure about that? Why would highgravity.com, show it as an option on their electric brewery page?

I have a Ranco controller that I use on my freezer. It is model #ETC111000-000. I got the relay ratings from the owners manual. Math is pretty simple: 16*120=1920 watts. Plus, it has no manual control to use for a boil kettle. I am sure Ranco makes different controllers, perhaps they have controllers with higher ratings. If you look closely at the control box on the highgravitybrew.com website, it appears to have an SSR that is controlling the 240 vac element. It appears that Ranco controls the SSR.

Kerberbb said:

I understand what you are saying, but I am looking for cost effective as well as something that is mobile/can be stored. I have seen Kal's website, and it is a very nice setup, just not what I am wanting.

Click to expand...

The PID from auber is $45 and the SSR can be had for cheap on flea bay
as for portability this can be accomplished check out some of the tool box control panels here on HBT

I incorporated many of Kals ideas without going quite that wild
it can and has been done

Okay, so lets just do this, tell me what to build that has the following components and is cheap as possible and electric. You see what I have above and will only be primary doing 5 gallon batches.

1 - HERMS setup
2 - electric hlt and boil
3 - March pump

Can anybody show me a setup for this, with the control box under say $300?

"As cheap as possible" would be to only put an electric element in one kettle and make your HERMS coil movable instead of installed permanently in one of the vessels.

During mash, water is in that e-kettle and the coil is placed in it.

Pump MLT through coil and back to MLT with PID in control of heating in normal mode.

When ready to sparge, move e-kettle water to third vessel as a temporary HLT.

Pump MLT to e-kettle.

Pump HLT to MLT for sparge.

Pump MLT to kettle.

Switch PID to manual mode to control e-kettle boil strength and go.

Questions:
Are you on 120v or 240v?
Are you GFI protected already?

Walker said:

"As cheap as possible" would be to only put an electric element in one kettle and make your HERMS coil movable instead of installed permanently in one of the vessels.

During mash, water is in that e-kettle and the coil is placed in it.

Pump MLT through coil and back to MLT with PID in control of heating in normal mode.

When ready to sparge, move e-kettle water to third vessel as a temporary HLT.

Pump MLT to e-kettle.

Pump HLT to MLT for sparge.

Pump MLT to kettle.

Switch PID to manual mode to control e-kettle boil strength and go.

Questions:
Are you on 120v or 240v?
Are you GFI protected already?

Click to expand...

I have a immersion chiller I was planning to place inside the HLT with the in/out coming thru the lid. I was thinking to run my hoses so that it could not only be used as a HERMS, but when finished pump wort back thru the immersion chiller (now surrounded by ice, until I buy a plate chiller) for coolilng purposes. I can run either 120v or 240, I actually have a 220 plug in my garage. Honestly I would love to just use the 220 outlet if all possible. I simply want a box like the ebcII from highgravity.com, but I also want the control that would come with hooking 2 rancos to the unit. One sensor on the HLT and another on the MT. Is there a simple application that would control the 2 heating elements, pump and temp probes?

Kerberbb said:

I have a immersion chiller I was planning to place inside the HLT with the in/out coming thru the lid. I was thinking to run my hoses so that it could not only be used as a HERMS, but when finished pump wort back thru the immersion chiller (now surrounded by ice, until I buy a plate chiller) for coolilng purposes.

Click to expand...

Yep. This is exactly what I do to chill.

Kerberbb said:

I can run either 120v or 240, I actually have a 220 plug in my garage. Honestly I would love to just use the 220 outlet if all possible. I simply want a box like the ebcII from highgravity.com, but I also want the control that would come with hooking 2 rancos to the unit. One sensor on the HLT and another on the MT. Is there a simple application that would control the 2 heating elements, pump and temp probes?

Click to expand...

There are a zillion ways to skin this cat. Personally, I wouldn't suggest using ranco or johnson controllers because those use mechanical relays to switch things on and off. You will be switching elements on and off a lot during a HERMS brew, and that wears the mechanical contacts out, shortening the life of your system

Also, it's not really possible to control the strength of a boil based on temperature. A kettle full of gently simmering water will measure 212*F. A kettle that has a volcanic boil, splashing water up and out the top, will also measure 212*F. So, it's pointless to try and control this based on temperature.

If you are dead-set on using the ranco controller, we can go down that road, but a better solution would be to sell the ranco's and buy PIDs.

A few questions need to be answered and comments need to be made before you can really start planning this out, though.

First, 120v really isn't going to cut it here. You would need two elements in the boil kettle, plugged into separate circuits in your house. In the HLT, you would also need two more elements if you didn't want to wait around forever for water to heat up. (Or you could do primary heating in BK and then move to MLT and maintain with a single element.)

Either way, that gives many elements to control, and you wouldn't be able to run them all at the same time unless you have 3 or 4 separate 120v circuits to plug them into .

If you've got 240v available, that will by far be the cheapest and cleanest route to go.

So... questions:

1. How many amps are available from your 240v outlet?
2. Do you want to be able to run the HLT and BK at the same time?
* this decision might already be made for you if the 240v outlet doesn't have enough amps available
3. Does the 240v outlet provide 4 wires (2 hots, neutral, and ground) or just 3 wires (2 hots and ground)?

1. How many amps are available from your 240v outlet?

It is a 220v 20 amp outlet.

2. Do you want to be able to run the HLT and BK at the same time?
* this decision might already be made for you if the 240v outlet doesn't have enough amps available

I do not want to run both at the same time.

3. Does the 240v outlet provide 4 wires (2 hots, neutral, and ground) or just 3 wires (2 hots and ground)?

The 220v outlet female plug is mounted on the wall and has input for 3 male connections. This connection has its own switch in the breaker box with a 30amp fuse.

So 220v at 20amp should be enough to power the system, right? I have no interest in doing a 120v setup. I completely understand your comments about rolling/vigorous boil, which was part of the reason I like the EBC II from highgravity. Is there a simple PID setup which would accomplish this, or at least someone tell me how to do it?

Kerberbb said:

1. How many amps are available from your 240v outlet?

It is a 220v 20 amp outlet.

2. Do you want to be able to run the HLT and BK at the same time?
* this decision might already be made for you if the 240v outlet doesn't have enough amps available

I do not want to run both at the same time.

3. Does the 240v outlet provide 4 wires (2 hots, neutral, and ground) or just 3 wires (2 hots and ground)?

The 220v outlet female plug is mounted on the wall and has input for 3 male connections. This connection has its own switch in the breaker box with a 30amp fuse.

So 220v at 20amp should be enough to power the system, right? I have no interest in doing a 120v setup. I completely understand your comments about rolling/vigorous boil, which was part of the reason I like the EBC II from highgravity. Is there a simple PID setup which would accomplish this, or at least someone tell me how to do it?

Click to expand...

To be clear... You said it was 220v/20A outlet, but the electric panel box has a 30A fuse in it? That seems a little odd.

Oh, and is is really a FUSE and not a circuit breaker? (ie; is your house old)?

At 220v, 20A would let you drive 3500W. If it's 30A, then you can go to 5500W.

That's enough power for 5 gallon batches for sure.

Sorry... I had more to say but hit send too soon.

If you only want to power one element at a time, then you really only need a single temp controller. A selector switch could control whether that controller was powering the HLT or the BK.


Oh, and you don't really need a temp probe in the boil kettle for any part of this for the reason I mentioned earlier (boil is always the same temp, regardless of strength of the boil).

You can use two temp controllers and two probes and all that if you want, but a single controller and probe will get the job done.

Yeah, there is a 30w. Its a breaker box, my house is about 10 yrs old. I was thinking dual temp sensors as a failsafe. Putting one in the MT and one in the HLT. I was thinking that because of how a ranco operates, but maybe I would not need 2 units with a PID? Can one PID monitor both, or would I only really need one with a PID? I was thinking for the BK, I would just unplug the HLT element and plug in the BK. Can anybody design or show me how to wire something like this?

Kerberbb said:

Yeah, there is a 30w. Its a breaker box, my house is about 10 yrs old. I was thinking dual temp sensors as a failsafe. Putting one in the MT and one in the HLT. I was thinking that because of how a ranco operates, but maybe I would not need 2 units with a PID? Can one PID monitor both, or would I only really need one with a PID? I was thinking for the BK, I would just unplug the HLT element and plug in the BK.

Click to expand...

Let me state again... a temp probe in the BK does not accomplish anything as far as controlling the kettle. Once the kettle starts to boil, it will reach and stay at the same temperature, no matter how hard it is boiling.

You can set it for 212*F and the kettle will boil. Or... You can set the temp controller for 500*F, and the kettle will just sit and boil at 212*F. In either of these cases, I cannot tell you how hard the kettle will be boiling. I can just tell you that it will be boiling.

You will get the same effect by just plugging the kettle straight into the wall.

Now... back to controlling the HLT, which is something we can deal with easily.

If you want to use the ranco controller, then you can have it drive an SSR and then have the SSR handle driving the heater element in your HLT. You have to do this because the ranco itself is not able to handle the load of the heater element. The SSR will act as a buffer between the ranco and the heater element.

That part is simple.

Now, for the boil kettle... since the ranco isn't going to help you with anything here, you can just directly drive the element with 240v. Maybe just a simple power switch to turn the element off and on. Or, you could unplug the HLT, plug in the BK, and then tell the ranco to heat it to something higher than 212*F. Either way, the element is going to come on and stay on and boil like a crazy m*therf*cker, depending on how many watts you put in the thing.

Now... if you want to be able to control the strength of the boil, you are going to need to do something other than the ranco. Do you want the ability to control the strength of your boil, or do you just want to let it rip?

Kerberbb said:

Can anybody design or show me how to wire something like this?

Click to expand...

Yes. I can help you, as can a bunch of other people, but WE NEED TO SORT OUT DETAILS FIRST. That's what I am trying to do right now, and is why I am asking you all these questions. I will draw something up for you, but we have things still to discuss.

I think I might not have been clear about what I meant about unplugging the HLT, and then plugging in the BK.

If the BK had its own on/off switch that would be awesome, if not I was just saying I could unplug the heating element from the on/off switch and plug in the one for the BK.

This is how the EBC II setup is designed. If it is just as easy to have its own on/off and plugin that is great.

I was thinking about running 4500w elements in both the HLT, and the BK. Ideally for the BK I would like to be able to dial up/down the power as needed (like EBC II).

I am not set on using the Ranco units for the reasons you mentioned, but would rather use a PID. I just was apprehensive about a PID because the setting and design I am not familiar with. If you able to draw something up for me to follow, which would be awesome of you, I can absolutely do it.

Can you send me a link to the EBC II? I tried looking for it, but all I saw was a box, plugged into itself, with an on/off switch on it. Alternately, you could plug the ranco into it for MLT control.

But I saw nothing that indicated you could dial up/down the power for the boil, so maybe I was looking at the wrong thing.

At any rate... if you are willing to go with a PID, then you can accomplish everything nice and easy and cleanly.

Plug in the HLT, with a probe in it, and tell the PID to heat and maintain a certain temp.

Then, for boil, you unplug HTL, plug in boil kettle, and switch the PID into "manual mode" and tell it to "use 80% power" or whatever, and it will control the strength of your boil kettle. The temp probe is irrelevant in this mode. It can be left in the HLT, monitoring nothing useful. The PID does not use the probe input in manual mode.

Walker said:

Can you send me a link to the EBC II? I tried looking for it, but all I saw was a box, plugged into itself, with an on/off switch on it. Alternately, you could plug the ranco into it for MLT control.

But I saw nothing that indicated you could dial up/down the power for the boil, so maybe I was looking at the wrong thing.

At any rate... if you are willing to go with a PID, then you can accomplish everything nice and easy and cleanly.

Plug in the HLT, with a probe in it, and tell the PID to heat and maintain a certain temp.

Then, for boil, you unplug HTL, plug in boil kettle, and switch the PID into "manual mode" and tell it to "use 80% power" or whatever, and it will control the strength of your boil kettle. The temp probe is irrelevant in this mode. It can be left in the HLT, monitoring nothing useful. The PID does not use the probe input in manual mode.

Click to expand...

Here is the link: http://www.highgravitybrew.com/ProductCart/pc/EBC-II-with-Infinite-Power-Control-158p3073.htm

You can see the dial controller mounted on the side of the box. They have a 3 plug and a 4 plug option as well. Obviously a 3 plug would be ideal for me!

I would be all for using a PID and accomplishing everything nice, easy and clean! What you just described sounds great, and is what I am searching for!

Nevermind. I found the link to the EBC II that does have a dial on it now.

To get the functionality in that box, you can build it for under $150, and it would also have the ability to control your MLT without having to plug in an external ranco controller.

PID - $45 from auberins.com
SSR - $10 on ebay
dryer cord - $10 at home depot
dryer receptacle - $5 at home depot
temp probe - $20 on ebay
box to put it all in - $15 at lowes
power switch and receptacle for pump - $7 at home depot
power switch for turning element on and off - maybe $10 at home depot

Walker said:

Nevermind. I found the link to the EBC II that does have a dial on it now.

To get the functionality in that box, you can build it for under $150, and it would also have the ability to control your MLT without having to plug in an external ranco controller.

PID - $45 from auberins.com
SSR - $10 on ebay
dryer cord - $10 at home depot
dryer receptacle - $5 at home depot
temp probe - $20 on ebay
box to put it all in - $15 at lowes
power switch and receptacle for pump - $7 at home depot
power switch for turning element on and off - maybe $10 at home depot

Click to expand...

Awesome, is there a scematic, or could you make one for how to wire all of this?

Also, do you have a link to the first 5 items on the list? I am gonna assume which PID or SSR has some effect on wiring.

Kerberbb said:

Awesome, is there a scematic, or could you make one for how to wire all of this?

Also, do you have a link to the first 5 items on the list? I am gonna assume which PID or SSR has some effect on wiring.

Click to expand...

PIDs and SSRs are fairly interchangeable. Which ones you end up using won'y have a very big impact on wiring. But, we still have more talking to do.

Seriously, you need to be patient while we sort out the details. If you just want a schematic, I'll let someone else draw it for you, but I personally insist on making sure you understand what's going on with every aspect of this.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you are WAY to eager to rush into something you don't yet understand, and which has the ability to literally kill you before you know what happened.

So... I have two other concerns, and they are both related to the 220v service you have.

Is the 30A breaker a GFI breaker? GFI = Ground Fault Interrupt. In short, it's a life saving device. You can tell if it's GFI by just looking at it. If it has a little "test" button on it that causes the breaker to trip when you press it, then it's a GFI breaker.

It is not a GFI. Here are some pictures of what I have currently. I have a friend that is an electrican who said he would actually setup my box if I got the plans. I am sure I can have him setup a GFI if it is needed. I am not in a huge rush, but I am just eager to get stuff on order.






I also have a 30 I could replace the 20 with.

OK. Thanks for the pics. That helps a LOT.

There are a few problems, but since you have an electrician friend, this might be a piece of cake to remedy.

First: you cannot just take out the 20A breaker and put the 30A in. The wires in the wall and the outlet are only rated for 20A. If you put a 30A breaker in, then the wires inside your wall become fire hazards in the event of a problem.

At 20A, you are limited to a 4000W or 4500W heating element. That's plenty for a 5 gallon batch, but doesn't leave a lot of room to spare.

Second: You're right that there is no GFI there. You do not "need" GFI for the system to work, but I would NEVER suggest someone brew on an electric system without GFI protection. So, you will either need to have the electrician put in a GFI breaker or you can find a powercord that has GFI built into it. Both of these items are pricey. I had SERIOUS sticker shock when I went to purchase a GFI breaker for my panel. It was over $100 in a retail store, but I ended up scoring a deal on ebay for $35.

Third: your outlet provides no neutral wire at the outlet. It provides two hot lines for the 220v and a ground, but there is no neutral. That's bad news for your pump. Your pump wants 110v to operate, which means that it wants to be connected to one of the hot lines and the neutral.

SO, I would talk to your electrician friend and see if he can:

Install a GFI breaker and fix your wiring so that you have both hots, the neutral, and the ground available to plug into.

If he has to run new wiring, to do this, you could consider having him up the size of the wiring to give you more amps than just 20.

Most folks use 30A at least. That's room for 5500W and pumps.

So... check with him about that stuff.

I would hold off on ordering anything at this point, honestly. I suggest you work through the details and price everything out. You might not like the final number you are looking at and can back out without having spent anything.

That should be no problem, I am gonna have my buddy come over and look at it this weekend. He said it was like the setup for a hot tub. He said you he would be able to look at the line entering the breaker box and be able to tell.

$100 for a GFI breaker should not be a problem.

Looking at the following link: http://www.highgravitybrew.com/ProductCart/pc/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Brewery-276p2351.htm

I do have a question. In the bottom picture it shows the power plugin from the wall, stating a 220v 30A service is required. It however does not mention the GFI breaker.

Is that because the unit has a GFI incorporated into it? If so that would make the EBC II a deal at $300 right? Roughly you are looking at $150ish for the control box, plus a GFI of $100 equaling roughly $250 + you have to put it all together. But if you still have to install a $100 GFI either way the self built is a better deal!

Kerberbb said:

Looking at the following link: http://www.highgravitybrew.com/ProductCart/pc/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Brewery-276p2351.htm

I do have a question. In the bottom picture it shows the power plugin from the wall, stating a 220v 30A service is required. It however does not mention the GFI breaker.

Is that because the unit has a GFI incorporated into it? If so that would make the EBC II a deal at $300 right? Roughly you are looking at $150ish for the control box, plus a GFI of $100 equaling roughly $250 + you have to put it all together. But if you still have to install a $100 GFI either way the self built is a better deal!

Click to expand...

No, I don't think there is any GFI inside of it. I think that that thing, in all honesty, is an semi-unsafe piece of equipment at rip-off price.

With only 3 wires coming in, it's two hots and ground. You can run the pump by connecting it to one of the hots and the ground, but this means that you CANNOT use a GFI with that kind of system. So... that 3-wire version is explicitly a non-GFI electric brewing box. Functional... but not something I would suggest.

You can have them put a 4-wire cord on it. That would provide the neutral in addition to the ground, and the pump would be connected to one hot line and the neutral, and THEN you could have GFI in the breaker box.

At any rate $300 for that thing is in no way a deal. To build something exactly like that, it would cost less than $100.

I don't know if I could consider it unsafe, but obviously the GFCI is added peace of mind.

I don't know if you can tell but the outlet is probably less than 3 feet on the wall from the breaker box. So pulling a heavier gauge wire if needed should not be a problem.

Bottom line though this is gonna get completed by me in a month or two. I hate dragging crap out. Today I purchased an 809 march pump, and all the quick connect hoses. I will brew with a gas HERMs setup, until I move to electric.

I want to build the control box and put in the elements all at once.

Having a 220v 30a GFCI outlet in place the remaining parts are the following:

4500W Heating Elements (2)
PID - $45 from auberins.com
SSR - $10 on ebay
dryer cord - $10 at home depot
dryer receptacle - $5 at home depot
temp probe - $20 on ebay
box to put it all in - $15 at lowes
power switch and receptacle for pump - $7 at home depot
power switch for turning element on and off - maybe $10 at home depot

Honestly, I need some direction as to what order things are to be placed in (schematic). I am not gonna be doing any of the wiring but need a plan and list of parts for my buddy to follow.

use kals site as a reference. It has everything you need to design your own. Spend some time on it.

Kerberbb said:

...
I want to build the control box and put in the elements all at once.

Having a 220v 30a GFCI outlet in place the remaining parts are the following:

4500W Heating Elements (2)
PID - $45 from auberins.com
SSR - $10 on ebay
dryer cord - $10 at home depot
dryer receptacle - $5 at home depot
temp probe - $20 on ebay
box to put it all in - $15 at lowes
power switch and receptacle for pump - $7 at home depot
power switch for turning element on and off - maybe $10 at home depot
...

Click to expand...

Just be aware, dryer cords and outlets are generally 3 wire devices. They deliver 240V and ground - No neutral.

Sorry, just copied that list over. I meant to switch that 4 wire. I like the following setup, and thinking about using it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/240vac-toolbox-control-panel-pics-184296/