Ph and dark grains

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orangemen5

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M brewing a porter with a lot of crystal and roasted malt. I've been using brewing water to get a ball park estimate of my mash ph. I can usually get my light beers in range with a little acidulated malt. But have trouble with dark beers. My grist is as follows.
11lbs 2 row
1 lb crystal 120
1.5 lbs brown malt (65)
.5 lbs crystal 40
1.25lbs choclate malt (350)
2.25 lbs munich (10)

My water is as follows.
Calcium 36
Sulfate 20
Sodium 11
Magnesium 9
Chloride 22
Alkalinity 97

Bru n water predicts a mash ph of 5.0. I would like to get it in the range of 5.3-5.4. I don't have any pickling lime. But was thinking of using 2-3 tsp of baking soda since my sodium isn't really high to start with. Or would I be better off a ding the roasted grains late in the mash. I could steep the grains I guess but it's more added work. What do you think.
 
Do you have a pH meter or are you working in the blind? If you have a meter then a test mash is the best way to go. Baking soda is fine for adding alkalinity if required as long as you don't over do it (sodium concern which you have cited).

Adding roast grains later is highly recommended by some including Gordon Strong. They certainly won't effect your dough in pH if you do that but they will still add acid. The goal is to get mash pH correct and then rely on the fact that if you do pH will usually track throughout the rest of the process. Still, some brewers add acid to the kettle. So getting mash pH correct w/o the dark grains and then adding them later may be a good thing to do from the kettle pH POV too but I'd want to check that with a meter.
 
I like to wait to add roasted malts until the end of my mash is complete so they don't mess up the pH. It is a very simple way to deal with the problem.
 
Unfortunately I don't have a ph meter. Just going by bru n waters prediction. Which from what I've read is pretty accurate. I think I'll add the rest of the grains at the end of the mash so they don't lower the ph too low. When would be a good time to add them. I'm thinking 15-20 min from the end of the mash.
 
I do a mash out, so I add them just before I start to ramp up the temperature. Probably extract for 10 min tops before I start to sparge (batch)

Another alternative is to steep the roast malts in cold water and then add that when the mash is finished. I'm not sure how long a step, you'll have to check around, but I think some folks even do overnight
 
I do a mash out, so I add them just before I start to ramp up the temperature. Probably extract for 10 min tops before I start to sparge (batch)

Another alternative is to steep the roast malts in cold water and then add that when the mash is finished. I'm not sure how long a step, you'll have to check around, but I think some folks even do overnight

Roughly 24 hours is the recommendation I've seen for cold steeping. I've done it a couple of times when I was just experimenting. It does seem to really cut down on the acrid flavors you get from some dark grains. I get more of a roasty flavor and less bitterness.
 
Keeping the roast and crystal malts out of the main mash is a viable way to keep the mash pH from falling too low. However, it is a stop-gap approach since when the roast and crystal are eventually added, the pH of the wort you send to the kettle will be lower than desired.

Keeping the mash pH in the right range improves the enzymatic action. However when the kettle wort pH is very low, the hop expression and bittering extraction are reduced and the beer can end up tasting tart. The work-around method of delaying the roast and crystal additions is NOT a cure-all. Sometimes alkalinity is necessary.
 
But, OTOH, as I pointed out in #2, some brewers set correct mash pH and then acidify further in the kettle so there may be some cases where this is actually the wise thing to do. But, as I also said earlier, I'd want to be sure with pH meter readings.
 
Keeping the roast and crystal malts out of the main mash is a viable way to keep the mash pH from falling too low. However, it is a stop-gap approach since when the roast and crystal are eventually added, the pH of the wort you send to the kettle will be lower than desired.

Keeping the mash pH in the right range improves the enzymatic action. However when the kettle wort pH is very low, the hop expression and bittering extraction are reduced and the beer can end up tasting tart. The work-around method of delaying the roast and crystal additions is NOT a cure-all. Sometimes alkalinity is necessary.

In the interests of full disclosure, I do more than I posted above. I don't brew many dark beers (I like them, but there are too many others to brew!) so I am really dialed in with my water for lighter beers. I actually have good water for dark beers, but since I've got the light stuff dialed in, I go with that water/mash routine and add the dark grains at the end of the mash. HOWEVER, I treat my water with pickling lime to reduce my carbonates, so when I do brew a dark beer, I also add back in the boil kettle the carbonates that I earlier precipitated out to minimize the affects of the roast malts in the boil kettle. Certainly not for everyone, but it works for me
 
So it baking soda an acceptable way to add alkalinity or does it not dissolve well. pickling lime is probably better but Baking soda is readily available. I'm assuming if I keep sodium under 50ppm I should be ok. It seems the easiest way to add alkalinity.
 
Yes, baking soda is a very acceptable way of adding alkalinity provided you do not use so much that you run the sodium up too high. It has one advantage over lime and that is that all its alkalinity is available. Lime contains calcium which reacts with phosphate (from malt) to release protons which neutralize some of the hydroxyl ions forming water. As baking soda contains no calcium this does not happen. This isn't much of a problem with lime as you just add a bit more than the stoichimetry says you need. The calcium precipitates and the other 'waste' product is water.
 
I don't know a ton about brewing water chemistry, but I used to work at a pool store and did a lot of water chemistry work there. What I can contribute is that pool alkalinity increaser is sodium bicarbonate--baking soda. So as long as more sodium isn't a problem with your water, it's a great way to adjust your pH up.
 
I like to wait to add roasted malts until the end of my mash is complete so they don't mess up the pH. It is a very simple way to deal with the problem.

Interesting. But what mash advantage are you missing out on by waiting until the end? As brewers we keep track of the amalyse and protease activity but I am a believer that there is other "magic" going on that we don't fully understand. Cheers.
 
Interesting. But what mash advantage are you missing out on by waiting until the end? As brewers we keep track of the amalyse and protease activity but I am a believer that there is other "magic" going on that we don't fully understand. Cheers.

None for the roasted malt - they don't need mashing. I think of using dark malts as going back to extract plus steeping grains (minus the bag). I don't think there is much in the dark malts that can be acted on by an enzymes. Roasted starch is not something the amylases can act on.

Lots of folks think (and I agree) that using a late addition (or cold steeping) results in a smoother, less harsh roasted flavor in the final product.
 
None for the roasted malt - they don't need mashing. I think of using dark malts as going back to extract plus steeping grains (minus the bag). I don't think there is much in the dark malts that can be acted on by an enzymes. Roasted starch is not something the amylases can act on.

Lots of folks think (and I agree) that using a late addition (or cold steeping) results in a smoother, less harsh roasted flavor in the final product.

They may not need mashing from a carbohydrate and protein standpoint but to clarify what I stated, typically, us brewers onlypay attention to the amylases and proteases but there is MUCH more going on in the cooker besides these; the mash is a fairly complex biochemical system. In addition to the enzyme systems there are extractions that are impacted by hydration, agitation, non enzymatic reactions, etc.

I have always viewed the cooker as "extract production" and there is more to extract than just the carbohydrates (and proteins) it's just that we don't have a good way to measure them. For example, it is definite that color can increase with increased cooker time and with that also goes flavor and other stuff.

We make beer mostly for taste (at least that is my focus, guessing most are the same :)). It would be interesting to me to make the same brew once with a full cooker exposure for the dark malts and one the way you mention. I am sure many including you have done this; unfortunately, I have not. If more stuff comes out as I have seen, it may not be better stuff but there is more going on and aside from the taste impact, physical stability impact, etc., I get joy out manipulating the process and understanding it.
 
I understand what you are saying. That is something I always wonder about. With mashing the laser-like focus of most folks is conversion, conversion, conversion. However that largely dictates final ABV (and body), but what about flavor. The mash is also about extracting flavor compounds from the malt. I haven't found much data on this. Is it independent of conversion? I tend to think it is a separate process. It will however be affected somewhat by the rate of conversion - depending on how coarse or fine your crush is. I could see where some of the flavor compounds could be trapped in the starch and only released as the starch is broken down. I believe though that at these temps. it is a dissolution process, not a conversion process

I suspect there is not a lot of enzymatic involvement in the production of flavor compounds at starch conversion temperatures. The amylases are fairly unique (thankfully) in their temperature stability. Not many other enzymes maintain activity at these temperatures. Now in the range 100 - 130 F, there there could be some enzymatic activity that could affect flavor, but I haven't found any good literature on this - yet. I have an experiment planned to test this.


edit - some flavor is known - forgot about the ferulic acid rest (109-113 F) in wheat beers to maximize clove flavors. The certainly raises the possibility of other flavors being affected.
 
Just did a little reading up on the Maillard reaction. Some of this could be happening in the mash. More though during the boil. This would be affected by the conversion rate as the Maillard reaction involves amino acids and sugars. I think there would be a lot more of this during the boil, than the mash though, with the mash simply creating the reactants.
 
Baking Soda works fine, but without a pH meter, it is really a crap shoot. You should add a portion, measure and repeat until you strike the target pH. I think that is the major issue. I would rather err on the low pH side than high personally. The test mash is a great recommendation, but tells you nothing without calibrated pH meter readings. Perhaps useful for iodine conversion tests?

Using the spreadsheet without accurate measurements gives little more than an educated guess at your additions. I hope that AJ and Martin will agree with that statement.

Three grams of baking soda is not much relative to the sodium flavor contribution, BUT you may find that your taste threshold is very low.
 
Using the spreadsheet without accurate measurements gives little more than an educated guess at your additions. I hope that AJ and Martin will agree with that statement.

Absolutely. A model is only an indirect method of assessment. Actual measurement with a method that can be verified should always be better. With that said, I'd say that Bru'n Water has a lot of education in its guess. So for those that can measure...DO. For those that can't measure, at least give yourself a chance to be in the ballpark with a good model of the mashing pH response.
 
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