Need help trying to decipher Hefeweizen flavor.

I brewed 2 beers recently. I will list the recipes with notes below. They both came out with a Hefeweizen flavor (best way I can describe it). I'm not big into that taste, but I have mustered thru one 5 gallon batch and just tapped the other. At first I thought it might have been the new RIMS tube. But the Honey Pal Ale (just what I named it becasue I used some honey malt) was not brewed with the RIMS tube.

Then, I thoght for sure it was the yeast. I reused some washed US-05. However, I also have on tap a Bells 2 Hearted IPA that used the same yeast and it is pretty close to dead on as clone goes with no Hefeweizen aroma or flavor.

What stumped me was that the one I just tapped is supposed to be a SNPA clone and it tastes and smells EXACTLY like a Hefeweizen. Again, thats the only way I know to describe it.

I secondaried the Honay Pale and did not on the SNPA but I did add some gelatin to the keg to try and "calm it down" some to no avail.

As you can see in the notes, I used hot tap water to start on one, but not the other. I know recently I added tap water to the HLT and forgot the campden tablet, maybe it was one of these batches (or both).

I was thinking Chloramines could be the cause but I have forgotten the campden in the past and not had this flavor/aroma.

Does anyone have experience with off flavors due to Chloramines?

SNPA 5 gallon
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Rob
Date: 1/24/10

Size: 6.0 gal
Efficiency: 79.0%
Attenuation: 80.0%
Calories: 181.85 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.055 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.011 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 12.01 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 5.78% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 43.7 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
10.0 lb Canadian Craft Brewers Pale Malt
1.0 lb Crystal Malt 60°L
1.0 lb Cara-Pils® Malt
.5 oz Magnum (14.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.5 oz Perle (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min
.5 oz Cascade (5.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
2.0 oz Cascade (5.4%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0 min

Notes
Mash at 156 with 5 gallons of strike water for 60 minutes.
Then add 2 gallons of 185 degree water, stir really well and hold for 10 minutes.
Recirculate until wort runs clear.
Begin transfer and sparge with another 2.5 gallons of water to collect 8 in the BK.
Racked to secondary on 02-06-10.
Tapped 4-5-11
Tastes and smells like a Hefeweizen.

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.15

Gpa's Honay Pale
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Rob
Date: 1/15/11

Size: 6.0 gal
Efficiency: 81.0%
Attenuation: 73.0%
Calories: 173.25 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.052 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.014 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 6.75 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 4.97% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: 34.3 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
10.0 lb American 2-row
1 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 10L
.5 lb Honey Malt
2 oz Cascade (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
1.0 oz Cascade (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min



Notes
Loaded all 8.25 gallons of strike water to MT, stirred in well.
Recirculated the entire mash. Only had to fire the burner once. Target temp 152*. For some reason ended up at 158* with 165* strike water. Will go 160 next time.
STIRRED MASH AT THE 30 MINUTE MARK. Continued recirculation, lit burner for the first time.

2ndary cold crashed 1-30-11

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.15

Is the beer crystal clear? These are the first few pints from the keg? I find these are always a bit yeasty. I've also noticed that the yeast can taste quite different from one another. I've had some that were quite sweet and fruity, and others that are more bready. If this is the case it will go away shortly

Both beers actually started off and the Honay finished off Crystal clear. The Honay Pale tasted the same all the way thru.

What was your fermentation temp?

Also, can you more specifically describe the hefeweizen flavor and aroma? Do you mean yeasty? Clove/phenolic flavor? Bananas or other very apparent esters?

I have my ambient temps set at 60 on my controller. My actual ambient temps stay 62-64.

As far as flavor goes, I know what its not. I would say not banana and not fruity. Also not yeasty. As far as clove goes, maybe? I just described it as a Hefeweizen as I recently purchased a six pack of Hefes from a small brewery near here. That was the first and only time I have had them. I actually saved one back to compare and mine tasted and smelled exactly like the one I purchased, except more prominent in the flavor and aroma (mine kegged, it was bottled).

That is my only experience with a Hefe so not sure it tasted the way it was supposed to. I just assume so since it came from a small commercial brewery. Very small.

I just looked up phenolic flavor and I would say no on that based on this description: Phenolic (scorched, hospital-like, pharmaceutical, bakelite) ...

How about this maybe under the same description of Phenols:
PHENOLIC

CHARACTERISTICS: A hospital-medicine chest flavor and aroma, best detected by its aroma components; caused by phenols. Some phenolic tastes are desired depending on the style. Other descriptions include Band-Aid-like, plasticlike, smoky, clovelike.

HIGH LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Yeast strain; chlorophenols in the water; improper rinse of chlorine sanitizers; oversparging; sparging above pH 6.0; sparging above 170 degrees; wild yeast contamination.

LOW LEVELS DUE TO PROCESS: Charcoal filtering of tap water; good healthy yeast strain; proper sparging while monitoring temperature and pH, good rinse of sanitizers or use of non-chlorine sanitizers.

EXAMPLES: Wheat beers have a high amount of the phenol 4-vinyl guaiacol that gives the characteristic clove taste.

Hmmm....maybe the Chloramine after all?

Well, fermentation doesn't seem to be the culprit. Maybe it is a water problem. I do not have experience with off flavors from Chloramines, but there are some threads on it here. Still, it seems odd you are just now encountering this problem.

I had chlorine/chloramine problems in my early beers where I was using bleach as a sanitizer and didn't do a good job of rinsing it out. When the phenolic flavors came in, it tasted like a solvent cleaner. If it is just your water, I guess it wouldn't be that bad. I don't know, I have a lot of chlorine in my tap water and I use it for brewing without adding campden and it doesn't turn my beers into hefeweizens.

What bothers me is how you can have three beers, all with high IBUs, taste exactly like a hefeweizen when hefes are very low on hops. I suspect you are misconstruing what you are tasting. Is there a homebrew shop or homebrew group in your area you could convince to taste your beer? They should be able to define the off flavor and what is causing it.

Thanks Apache. To clarify, I had 2 not three (not splitting hairs, just in case that makes a difference) that tastes this way. We have Cloramine and not Chlorine in our water. I know that with Chlorine it can sit and evaporate overnight. Not so with Chloramines. Thats about all I know about the two!

Here's a little something on them:


Chloramines are disinfectants used to treat drinking water. Chloramines are most commonly formed when ammonia is added to chlorine to treat drinking water. The typical purpose of chloramines is to provide longer-lasting water treatment as the water moves through pipes to consumers. This type of disinfection is known as secondary disinfection. Chloramines have been used by water utilities for almost 90 years, and their use is closely regulated. More than one in five Americans uses drinking water treated with chloramines. Water that contains chloramines and meets EPA regulatory standards is safe to use for drinking, cooking, bathing and other household uses.

Also, on the off chance anyone else wants some info on them, here is a PDF sheet with some questions and answers regarding Chloramine.

http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/disinfection/chloramine/pdfs/all29_q.pdf

Also, I forgot to mention I had a fellow brewer come over and he also thought it tasted and smelled exactly like a Hefe. Sorry I cannot be more specific.

PVH said:

What was your fermentation temp?

Also, can you more specifically describe the hefeweizen flavor and aroma? Do you mean yeasty? Clove/phenolic flavor? Bananas or other very apparent esters?

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Looks like it could be the Phenol effect. What do you think?

Phenolic flavors and aromas in beer are most often described as clovey, spicey, smokey, band-aid-like, or medicinal flavors and aromas. Except in a few beer styles where some of these flavors are considered appropriate, these compounds are for the most part considered a flaw. The most common source of the clove-like and spicey aromas in beer are the classic German hefeweizen-style yeasts. These yeasts convert ferrulic acid from malt into a compound which smells just like cloves, 4-vinyl guaiacol. The reason most hefeweizen and other German wheat based beers display so much clovey phenolics is because wheat contains more ferrulic acid than barley.

Before attributing the medicinal flavors to wild yeast, you should be aware of the effect that chlorine has on beer. When you brew with highly chlorinated water, the chlorine reacts with naturally occurring phenols in the beer to form chlorophenols. This is a common flaw in home brewed beer and is easy to remedy by filtering with activated carbon or using either bottled water or Reverse Osmosis (RO) water.

Yambor44 said:

Looks like it could be the Phenol effect. What do you think?

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Like I said, it doesn't seem like fermentation temp or yeast strain is the issue here. If it's the water, why did you not experience this problem before?

You could brew another beer with new fermentation equipment to rule out wild yeast or bacterial infection.

We're also not clarifying if he means "German hefeweizen" or "American hefeweizen," which most of us would call "American wheat," but you have breweries like Pyramid who make an American wheat and call it a Hefeweizen...

So it we're talking American wheat I can totally see that in these recipes, but if phenols are really what you're dealing with I'd blame sanitation. How did you sanitize your bottles?

kanzimonson said:

We're also not clarifying if he means "German hefeweizen" or "American hefeweizen," which most of us would call point "American wheat," but you have breweries like Pyramid who make an American wheat and call it a Hefeweizen...

So it we're talking American wheat I can totally see that in these recipes, but if phenols are really what you're dealing with I'd blame sanitation. How did you sanitize your bottles?

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German, like the article points out. I keg, and even though I'm open to a sanitation issue, I'm pretty anal about it and highly doubt it.

PVH said:

Like I said, it doesn't seem like fermentation temp or yeast strain is the issue here. If it's the water, why did you not experience this problem before?

You could brew another beer with new fermentation equipment to rule out wild yeast or bacterial infection.

Click to expand...

I was wondering that myself and came to this conclusion. I remember reading something about water treatment plants adding more chemicals on weekends and Holidays to compensate for their absence during that period. Both of the above listed beers were done on a Saturday and the one I missed the Campden tablets on before was a Wednesday. Interesting if nothing else.

Yambor44 said:

I was wondering that myself and came to this conclusion. I remember reading something about water treatment plants adding more chemicals on weekends and Holidays to compensate for their absence during that period. Both of the above listed beers were done on a Saturday and the one I missed the Campden tablets on before was a Wednesday. Interesting if nothing else.

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It definitely sounds like chlorophenols. Maybe the water company switched to chloramines or switched back and forth? I know if we have heavy rains, they add more chlorine to our water.

I just bottled an IPA that had a hefe taste...I wasn't sure if that was just pre carbonation and that taste would change after another 2-3 weeks, or if there might be problems from my water source. Its not bad, just a hint.

MadRok said:

I just bottled an IPA that had a hefe taste...I wasn't sure if that was just pre carbonation and that taste would change after another 2-3 weeks, or if there might be problems from my water source. Its not bad, just a hint.

Click to expand...

Sorry too drag this back up, but how did this one turn out after bottle conditioning?

Since the above mentioned beers, our water company (city municipality) has changed all of our water lines that tie into the mains. Speaking with some of the supervisors on site I found out some of the lines feeding some of the homes further up our street still had lead pipes.

The replacement lines were all blue plastic or whatever you would cal the material.

I have an IPA on tap right now. 10 gallon batch split between 2 - 5 gallon kegs. Brewed with bottled spring water. Keg A (added to Primary 1st and kegged 1st) has no hint of Hefe flavor. Keg B has no Hefe aroma, but has a Hefe like flavor that seems to be clearing up.

This batch was rushed to tap as I was out of beer. 15 dyas primary then kegged. 4 days at 30 psi, then tapped.

Here's the recipe and notes.

SNIPA #105
14-B American IPA
Author: Rob
Date: 6/9/12

Size: 11.0*gal
Efficiency: 88.0%
Attenuation: 83.0%
Calories: 231.22*kcal per 12.0*fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.070 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.012 (1.010 - 1.018)
Color: 9.69 (6.0 - 15.0)
Alcohol: 7.65% (5.5% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 61.1 (40.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
22*lb RAHR 2 Row
1*lb Crystal Malt 60°L
2.0*lb Cara-Pils® Malt
1.74*oz Magnum (12.1%) - added during boil, boiled 60*m
1*oz Northern Brewer (10.8%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0*m
1*oz Cascade (6.4%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0*m
2.0*oz Cascade (6.4%) - added during boil, boiled 5.0*m


Notes
Subbed NB for Perle. Changed recipe from a Pale Ale to an IPA by adjusting grain and hop bill.
Strike temp 167. Doughed in, mash temp 153. End of 80 minute mash also 153.
6-24-12 Kegged (only 15 days- thought it had been 21)
Tapped 6-28-12 (yes, 4 days after kegging).

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.21