Using whirlfloc and chilling wort post boil.

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BansheeRider

BansheeRider

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Is stirring the wort while chilling counter productive if you used whirlfloc in the boil? I read that whirlfloc will pull proteins and other materials down during the cold break, which results in a much clearer beer. Stirring keeps everything in suspension, however stirring helps the wort cool faster. I also strain my wort using the paint strainer bags. I'm wondering if stirring the wort contradicts the use of whirlfloc. Sorry for the newbie question but I want to use whirlfloc the correct way. Thanks!
 
Not sure ....I am a believer in whirfloc though...I use a plate chiller so I get a pretty much instant chill....worth the investment


My opinion it isnt counter productive
 
I don't think it's counterproductive either. I always use whirfloc and will usually stir in a continuous direction opposite of my chiller to create a sort of whirlpool effect. I do this for 5-10 min then let it finish chilling without stirring any more. My break material always ends at the bottom of my kettle and not in my fermenter.
 
No ur good. Whirlfloc deals mostly with the coagulation of proteins for the cold and hot break. It allows these proteins to coagulate together, basically becoming bigger/heavier and dropping to the bottom. Not using whirlfloc or irish moss will keep more of these proteins suspended in the wort, which can lead to hazy beer. Yes it can drop into trub in the kettle but it can also occurr in ur fermentation vessel so in theory u can still dump everything from ur kettle into ur fermentor and still see a difference when using whirlfloc/irish moss.

This is a link i bookmarked a few months back when i was throwing around the idea of using a tablet. every batch i make that isn't a wheat beer or belgian gets a tab. Yooper knows her **** and she posts some good scientific stuff on how it works.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/whirlfloc-extract-192043/

Something else u can consider depending on your BK, is a diptube. U can cant the tube at a slight angle, make a whirlpool and alot of the hops particulars and any strain grains and other material will "dome" in the center of ur BK, while the diptube sucks out all the wort from alongside it. I am fine tunning my dip tube angle on my new keggle and its nice because alot of the stuff gets left in the BK for easy rinsing while all the good stuff gets into the fermentor.
 
Thanks for the reply's. It normally takes about 20min to cool my wort to 75 degrees with an ice bath. During this time I do a strong stir for a minute about three times. Do you suggest I let the wort settle for a while before pouring into the fermenter? I do use a strainer which catches most of the nasty stuff.
 
Sounds good since that's pretty much what i do already. The whirlfloc still works during fermentation correct? Also when I put my beer in the keg it will help clear it up as the beer gets cold right?
 
BansheeRider said:
Sounds good since that's pretty much what i do already. The whirlfloc still works during fermentation correct? Also when I put my beer in the keg it will help clear it up as the beer gets cold right?
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No, whirlfloc works during the boil to coagulate proteins. I get a crazy good cold break when I remember to use it, which results in very clear beer.

It's a "kettle fining" and doesn't do anything in the fermenter.
 
Don't bother letting it settle. I stir mine with the immersion chiller the entire time (it helps efficiency), and while it does kick up the sediment, it settles out very quickly. Even if it goes in the fermenter, it will all settle out down into the yeast cake.

image-3279197224.jpg
 
Pratzie said:
No ur good. Whirlfloc deals mostly with the coagulation of proteins for the cold and hot break. It allows these proteins to coagulate together, basically becoming bigger/heavier and dropping to the bottom. Not using whirlfloc or irish moss will keep more of these proteins suspended in the wort, which can lead to hazy beer. Yes it can drop into trub in the kettle but it can also occurr in ur fermentation vessel so in theory u can still dump everything from ur kettle into ur fermentor and still see a difference when using whirlfloc/irish moss.

This is a link i bookmarked a few months back when i was throwing around the idea of using a tablet. every batch i make that isn't a wheat beer or belgian gets a tab. Yooper knows her **** and she posts some good scientific stuff on how it works.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/whirlfloc-extract-192043/

Something else u can consider depending on your BK, is a diptube. U can cant the tube at a slight angle, make a whirlpool and alot of the hops particulars and any strain grains and other material will "dome" in the center of ur BK, while the diptube sucks out all the wort from alongside it. I am fine tunning my dip tube angle on my new keggle and its nice because alot of the stuff gets left in the BK for easy rinsing while all the good stuff gets into the fermentor.
Click to expand...

Good point, but your post hurt my eyes.
 
guldalian said:
Don't bother letting it settle. I stir mine with the immersion chiller the entire time (it helps efficiency), and while it does kick up the sediment, it settles out very quickly. Even if it goes in the fermenter, it will all settle out down into the yeast cake.

View attachment 115387
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Your beer makes my mouth water.
 
BansheeRider said:
Is stirring the wort while chilling counter productive if you used whirlfloc in the boil? I read that whirlfloc will pull proteins and other materials down during the cold break, which results in a much clearer beer. Stirring keeps everything in suspension, however stirring helps the wort cool faster. I also strain my wort using the paint strainer bags. I'm wondering if stirring the wort contradicts the use of whirlfloc. Sorry for the newbie question but I want to use whirlfloc the correct way. Thanks!
Click to expand...

I use whirlfloc all the time and I also stir my wort while using my wort chiller. I also use a muslin bag for my hops and spices. I know some people are against this but I use a large muslin bag and let as much of the bag into the boil as possible so that the hops are as loose as possible and not bunched up in a ball. This helps greatly will keeping the beer clearer. Also depending how far you want to go, you can rack to a secondary and cold crash for a few days to let any trub set up, then siphon into your keg or bottling bucket.
 
It's been a week or so since I kegged and after about 5 pints my beer is still cloudy from chill haze. Maybe I should have borrowed my friends filter system. I get good hot breaks in my boil, I cool the wort in under 30 min with an ice bath and get a good cold break. I'm not sure why my beer has chill haze while using whirlfloc and using good wort chilling methods.
 
jb3218 said:
I use whirlfloc all the time and I also stir my wort while using my wort chiller. I also use a muslin bag for my hops and spices. I know some people are against this but I use a large muslin bag and let as much of the bag into the boil as possible so that the hops are as loose as possible and not bunched up in a ball. This helps greatly will keeping the beer clearer. Also depending how far you want to go, you can rack to a secondary and cold crash for a few days to let any trub set up, then siphon into your keg or bottling bucket.
Click to expand...

I don't have the means to cold crash in secondary, unless I use my keg as a secondary. Also no sediment goes into the fermenter because I use a strainer bag to catch all the crap.
 
BansheeRider said:
It's been a week or so since I kegged and after about 5 pints my beer is still cloudy from chill haze. Maybe I should have borrowed my friends filter system. I get good hot breaks in my boil, I cool the wort in under 30 min with an ice bath and get a good cold break. I'm not sure why my beer has chill haze while using whirlfloc and using good wort chilling methods.
Click to expand...

How long do you let it sit in the secondary? I use irish moss (~ 1g/L) in the last 15 min of the boil and send everything but the hops through a plate chiller almost immediately. I get an insane cold break in the fermenter, but the beer is still a bit hazy. If I keg it too soon, I get crazy chill haze and a ton of sediment in the keg. After 3-4 weeks in the secondary, however, it is crystal clear, even when chilled and there is virtually no sediment in the keg.
 
ChiechiBrouw said:
How long do you let it sit in the secondary? I use irish moss (~ 1g/L) in the last 15 min of the boil and send everything but the hops through a plate chiller almost immediately. I get an insane cold break in the fermenter, but the beer is still a bit hazy. If I keg it too soon, I get crazy chill haze and a ton of sediment in the keg. After 3-4 weeks in the secondary, however, it is crystal clear, even when chilled and there is virtually no sediment in the keg.
Click to expand...

I usually get really clear beer after 2 weeks in primary and week in secondary. Sometimes I just do 3-4 weeks in primary and still have clear beer going through the siphon. My beer is always clear until I chill it and the haze starts to appear.
 
I stopped caring on clarity it will come with more time in the bottle.
 
I used my fivestar super moss for the first time on my NZ IPA PM last Sunday. I dissolved it in 4 oz of cool spring water,rather than cooled wort as recommended though. Added in the last 10 minutes of the boil,it did something I've never seen before. It made bubbles of wort "jump" out of the surface of the rolling boil waves. Weird.
But it did settle a lot of stuff out during the chill, The grains of protiens,etc weren't very big,but there was a substancial amount of it. I stired during the ice bath,but let it settle before straining into the FV. I strained out over 1C of gunk easily,with more left in the bottom of the BK/MT.It went into the fermenter a lot clearer than usual. So I have high hopes that this "settles" my chil haze problems from the fine crush on the grains for PB/PM BIAB I do.
 
BansheeRider said:
It's been a week or so since I kegged and after about 5 pints my beer is still cloudy from chill haze. Maybe I should have borrowed my friends filter system. I get good hot breaks in my boil, I cool the wort in under 30 min with an ice bath and get a good cold break. I'm not sure why my beer has chill haze while using whirlfloc and using good wort chilling methods.
Click to expand...

What kinda boil set up do u have? Diptube with ur kettle? If that the case, angle the diptube to the side and leave most of the trub and cold break in the kettle. Might cost ya anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 gallon but that might help with the chill haze.
 
Pratzie said:
What kinda boil set up do u have? Diptube with ur kettle? If that the case, angle the diptube to the side and leave most of the trub and cold break in the kettle. Might cost ya anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 gallon but that might help with the chill haze.
Click to expand...

I don't understand that. How can putting cold break in the fermenter create more chill haze? It's coagulated proteins that will fall to the bottom.

Chill haze isn't caused by trub or by leaving break material in the fermenter. It's from the particles still suspended. So, putting a ton of trub in the fermenter, while perhaps unslightly, won't cause chill haze or other clarity issues. It's common to siphon off of the break material, of course, but leaving it in there won't make it resuspend.

Chilling the beer for a couple of weeks will fix chill haze, but it's easier for me to just prevent it in the first place. I like this article from BYO that explains chill haze well: http://byo.com/american-pale-ale/item/486-conquer-chill-haze
 
unionrdr said:
I used my fivestar super moss for the first time on my NZ IPA PM last Sunday. I dissolved it in 4 oz of cool spring water,rather than cooled wort as recommended though. Added in the last 10 minutes of the boil,it did something I've never seen before. It made bubbles of wort "jump" out of the surface of the rolling boil waves. Weird.
But it did settle a lot of stuff out during the chill, The grains of protiens,etc weren't very big,but there was a substancial amount of it. I stired during the ice bath,but let it settle before straining into the FV. I strained out over 1C of gunk easily,with more left in the bottom of the BK/MT.It went into the fermenter a lot clearer than usual. So I have high hopes that this "settles" my chil haze problems from the fine crush on the grains for PB/PM BIAB I do.
Click to expand...

Maybe this happens to me because I dont let the chilled wort settle and I pour everything in the fermenter. I do use a strainer bag which catches all the hops, but what about proteins? These make it through the strainer correct? Maybe I should let the kettle settle for 10 min after being chilled and then pour slowly through the strainer into the fermenter.
 
Pratzie said:
What kinda boil set up do u have? Diptube with ur kettle? If that the case, angle the diptube to the side and leave most of the trub and cold break in the kettle. Might cost ya anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 gallon but that might help with the chill haze.
Click to expand...

No I don't have a dip tube on my BK and I don't siphon my beer into the fermenter because pouring helps in aerating.

Yooper said:
I don't understand that. How can putting cold break in the fermenter create more chill haze? It's coagulated proteins that will fall to the bottom.

Chill haze isn't caused by trub or by leaving break material in the fermenter. It's from the particles still suspended. So, putting a ton of trub in the fermenter, while perhaps unslightly, won't cause chill haze or other clarity issues. It's common to siphon off of the break material, of course, but leaving it in there won't make it resuspend.

Chilling the beer for a couple of weeks will fix chill haze, but it's easier for me to just prevent it in the first place. I like this article from BYO that explains chill haze well: http://byo.com/american-pale-ale/item/486-conquer-chill-haze
Click to expand...

Like you said, I thought whirlfloc makes any suspended material drop, whether it's in the BK or the fermenter. What about filtering the beer between kegs with a 1-5 micron filter?
 
BansheeRider said:
Like you said, I thought whirlfloc makes any suspended material drop, whether it's in the BK or the fermenter. What about filtering the beer between kegs with a 1-5 micron filter?
Click to expand...

That would work- but you'd have to get the beer cold first so chill haze develops, and then filtering would remove it. I'm not sure of the size filter you'd need as I don't filter, though!
 
BansheeRider said:
Maybe this happens to me because I dont let the chilled wort settle and I pour everything in the fermenter. I do use a strainer bag which catches all the hops, but what about proteins? These make it through the strainer correct? Maybe I should let the kettle settle for 10 min after being chilled and then pour slowly through the strainer into the fermenter.
Click to expand...

No,the coagulated protiens should get clumped up & in the strainer. Mine did. Along with trub,grainy floury stuff & other gunk. I'm sure more will settle out in the fermenter from the really cold top off water.
 
Yooper said:
That would work- but you'd have to get the beer cold first so chill haze develops, and then filtering would remove it. I'm not sure of the size filter you'd need as I don't filter, though!
Click to expand...
what's your technique for chilling and transfering to primary without filtering? very interested as I'd rather not filter
 
LopeJuice said:
what's your technique for chilling and transfering to primary without filtering? very interested as I'd rather not filter
Click to expand...

The method would be exactly as you read it. Do not filter at all. Transfer from BK to primary and not care a bit about what gunk and particles get in.
 
You can,but I prefer to get out as much gunk as possible myself. My dual layer fine mesh strainer really comes in handy. Less trub,more beer for me! :ban:
 
LopeJuice said:
what's your technique for chilling and transfering to primary without filtering? very interested as I'd rather not filter
Click to expand...

I have a pump, and leaf hops will clog that up. If I'm using whole (leaf) hops, I'll either bag those loosely, or use a "bazooka" screen for them.

Otherwise, I chill the wort, and then just send it to the fermenter on the last pass through the chiller. Because I have a CFC, all of the cold break goes into the fermenter. I don't worry about pellet hops debris at all, but if I use more than 5-6 ounces or so, sometimes I'll bag them just so I don't clog up my pump.
 
So this raises a question for me.

Is there anything at all as far as ingredients, hop residue, break materials or any boil additions that could cause any negative effects if transferred to primary?
 
brewkinger said:
So this raises a question for me.

Is there anything at all as far as ingredients, hop residue, break materials or any boil additions that could cause any negative effects if transferred to primary?
Click to expand...

I read something a while back, maybe 6 or 7 years ago, authored by Jamil Zainasheff that stated that he felt that hot break could negatively impact the flavor of the beer. But he didn't provide references or studies, so I'm not sure of the "whys" of that, or if he even still stands by that. Otherwise, I've not really seen any data that would suggest that hops residue or cold break impact the flavor either way.

As far as other additions, I could only surmise that things like spices would continue to "steep" in the beer, or maybe something like lemon peel might. But that's a guess on my part, and not at all based on science or experience.
 
brewkinger said:
So this raises a question for me.

Is there anything at all as far as ingredients, hop residue, break materials or any boil additions that could cause any negative effects if transferred to primary?
Click to expand...

Other than the actual hops, not really. In my experience, the more you try to filter or mess around with the wort to get rid of sediment/break material, the more opportunities you create for infection.

Since switching to a plate chiller, my primaries are loaded with break material, but my beers have been clearer and cleaner tasting. I just swirl the hot wort, give the hops 10 minutes to settle, and then send the wort through the chiller right into the primary, unfiltered, leaving nothing but wet hops behind in the kettle.
 
I let the brew kettle settle out the last 5 degrees or so of the ice bath. Then pour all through a dual layer fine mesh strainer into primary. After adding the cold top off water,I still wind up with some cold break settling out in primary. So far,I've had no adverse flavors,let alone any that could be directly attributed to cold break,trub,etc.
 
I'm bumping this thread with some results. Thanks to Yooper's reference to an older BYO article (it's on pg 3 of this thread), I did a side by side comparison, and the results are amazing. I used irish moss at 10 min remaining, whirlpool with wort chiller, and siphon off to fermenter, in as short an amount of time as possible. But there was a sentence in the article that encouraged me to extend the rest time of the cooled wort in the kettle to 2 hours before racking to the fermenter. I did cover the cooled wort with sanitized foil. I believe this was the difference, as the haze protein/fining matrix had time to settle out. The larger/heavier complexes settle quickly(the big clumps of stuff you see) but try to let gravity do some work on the smaller bits before you rack off to fermentation. You won't regret it. Brilliant clarity, and I have always had trouble with chill haze. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU YOOPER!!!
 
Yankeepride15 said:
I'm bumping this thread with some results. Thanks to Yooper's reference to an older BYO article (it's on pg 3 of this thread), I did a side by side comparison, and the results are amazing. I used irish moss at 10 min remaining, whirlpool with wort chiller, and siphon off to fermenter, in as short an amount of time as possible. But there was a sentence in the article that encouraged me to extend the rest time of the cooled wort in the kettle to 2 hours before racking to the fermenter. I did cover the cooled wort with sanitized foil. I believe this was the difference, as the haze protein/fining matrix had time to settle out. The larger/heavier complexes settle quickly(the big clumps of stuff you see) but try to let gravity do some work on the smaller bits before you rack off to fermentation. You won't regret it. Brilliant clarity, and I have always had trouble with chill haze. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU YOOPER!!!
Click to expand...

How do you whirl pool? Also while letting it rest did you leave the chiller in the kettle? I am brewing tonight so I may give this a try.
 
While you're using your wort chiller, just grab it (wear gloves) and swirl the wort with the chiller until it makes a little vortex. It'll also keep your temperatures from stratifying as you chill. Once I had my temp down to where I wanted it, I pulled the chiller and covered the kettle with sanitized foil (I suppose the lid would have worked, too)
 
Yankeepride15 said:
While you're using your wort chiller, just grab it (wear gloves) and swirl the wort with the chiller until it makes a little vortex. It'll also keep your temperatures from stratifying as you chill. Once I had my temp down to where I wanted it, I pulled the chiller and covered the kettle with sanitized foil (I suppose the lid would have worked, too)
Click to expand...

Cool thanks! And you have crystal clear beer with this method?
 
BansheeRider said:
Maybe this happens to me because I dont let the chilled wort settle and I pour everything in the fermenter. I do use a strainer bag which catches all the hops, but what about proteins? These make it through the strainer correct? Maybe I should let the kettle settle for 10 min after being chilled and then pour slowly through the strainer into the fermenter.
Click to expand...
From what I'm reading, it sounds like you are pulling some yeast through your keg. Unless you let your beer hang out in the fermenter for 4 weeks, you're going to leave a lot of yeast in suspension. those yeast drop to the bottom of the keg as it chills and is the first thing to be pulled up as you pour. I get a bit of yeast for the first gallon if I choose not to let the yeast settle in the fermenter, sometimes in scary looking chunks. It's harmless, but can give you some stomach issues if you're sensitive. Chill haze should be knocked out by the whirlflock tabs and settle in the fermenter. If you read what Jamil says, and I agree from personal experience, you don't need to secondary your beer. With the small batches home brewers make, there is no need for it. Autolysis only happens in huge tanks with a ton of pressure(beer) on top of the yeast and added heat from the yeast eating sugars. Just try not to disturb the yeast when moving your beer so you can siphon it into your keg. :mug:
 
BansheeRider said:
My beer is always clear until I chill it and the haze starts to appear.
Click to expand...

That's why they call it "chill haze". The proteins that haze up the beer are soluble at room temperature, but start to precipitate out when the beer is cold. Given time, the proteins will settle out and you should have some really clear beer, given you're using whirlfloc. Some commercial breweries will drop the yeast, i.e. chill the beer, then filter. The proteins at that point have coagulated to a size that can be filtered out, resulting in a clear beer. I'm with the last poster, I really don't sweat it, I'm through half the batch before it starts getting crystal. But I do get the attraction of serving a crystal clear homebrew.
 

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