Still have a horribly disappointing problem

Just kegged two brews I brewed 2 months ago, and they have a horrible flavor that has popped up in most of my batches (I've done 7 now). The flavor was even in my apfelwein. Out of all of my batches, I drank only two of them. The last one was delicious, but I suspect the flavor may have even been in that one except its higher hop quantities may have disguised it almost completely (40IBU with a decent bit of flavor and aroma hops as well).

Anyway, these last two were an amber and a quite light pale (light on both hops and DME). Fermented the first week or two at 66F or so. The rest of the time it was at 72. Is it the high temp? If its my sanitization practices, I'm fearful that I might just give it all up because I've done my best to keep everything as sanitary as possible - to go any further might be more work than I'm willing to invest. FWIW, the apfelwein probably was at 72-73 for the entire process, but I can't be certain.

I use PBW to clean everything, Starsan to sanitize (but have also used iodophor)... and I'm using yeasts and hops that shouldn't be the culprits. I do 2gal boils (late extract) on my stove in a 19qt pot from my LHBS. They don't quite get to a rolling boil, but they do boil.

I figure I'll give it one last shot to see if I can brew something good. The precautions I will take are these:
1) do a wheat or cream ale for ease and quickness
2) do a 1.5 gal boil with late extract to help facilitate a better boil
3) ferment at 64F and keep it there for two weeks

If that doesn't fix it, I'm afraid I might just list all my stuff for sale!!!


PS - Since I don't want to dump both of these 5gal batches I have kegged, I plan on adding a super strong hop tea to both - I will try to get a huge amount of bittering, flavoring, and aroma together in a half gallon boil with some DME, split it in half, and add it to the two kegs.

NitrouStang96 said:

Just kegged two brews I brewed 2 months ago, and they have a horrible flavor that has popped up in most of my batches (I've done 7 now). The flavor was even in my apfelwein. Out of all of my batches, I drank only two of them. The last one was delicious, but I suspect the flavor may have even been in that one except its higher hop quantities may have disguised it almost completely (40IBU with a decent bit of flavor and aroma hops as well).

Anyway, these last two were an amber and a quite light pale (light on both hops and DME). Fermented the first week or two at 66F or so. The rest of the time it was at 72. Is it the high temp? If its my sanitization practices, I'm fearful that I might just give it all up because I've done my best to keep everything as sanitary as possible - to go any further might be more work than I'm willing to invest.

I use PBW to clean everything, Starsan to sanitize (but have also used iodophor)... and I'm using yeasts and hops that shouldn't be the culprits. I do 2gal boils (late extract) on my stove in a 19qt pot from my LHBS. They don't quite get to a rolling boil, but they do boil.

I figure I'll give it one last shot to see if I can brew something good. The precautions I will take are these:
1) do a wheat or cream ale for ease and quickness
2) do a 1.5 gal boil with late extract to help facilitate a better boil
3) ferment at 64F and keep it there for two weeks

If that doesn't fix it, I'm afraid I might just list all my stuff for sale!!!


PS - Since I don't want to dump both of these 5gal batches I have kegged, I plan on adding a super strong hop tea to both - I will try to get a huge amount of bittering, flavoring, and aroma together in a half gallon boil with some DME, split it in half, and add it to the two kegs.

Click to expand...

What kind of flavor are you tasting?

I have a light ale that didn't come out well too. I added lemonade and now it's really tasty.

If the same flavor is in all of your beers, it could be your water. If you have been using your tap water, try bottled spring water and see if there is a difference.

take one into HBM and see if one of the brewers there will help you ID the flavor. The full boil thing is really less of an issue with the extract. Post the recipe for the worst one and maybe something will stand out.
are you using Steeping grains, or doing a partial mash?
Don't give up too easy. Just slow down and get the right help.

Steeping grains + extract on each.

Water is Arrowhead Mountain Spring water... but I haven't been boiling the chilled portion that I add to the boiled part. I suppose that could also be the problem.

It would be very helpful if you could describe the off-flavour.

NitrouStang96 said:

Steeping grains + extract on each.

Water is Arrowhead Mountain Spring water... but I haven't been boiling the chilled portion that I add to the boiled part. I suppose that could also be the problem.

Click to expand...

Nah, that's exactly what I did for about 10 years with no problem.
My neighbor, who is just getting into it, had a very disappointing second attempt. It was a simple pale ale, but it was bad.
I am planning a group brew sometime in the next several weeks with him, a first timer, and a guy with a few batches under his belt, but not recently.
If you can stand the old farts, I'll let you know when it's happening.

Please, for the love of god, let me know. I have been thinking how great it would be if I could watch and learn or have someone critique my technique. I'd really appreciate that, Germey! I just wish I had some from my last batch (that actually turned out good) to say thanks.

Again, what is the off flavor?

As long as you're working within the working limits of your yeast, I wouldn't think temps would be a problem. I'm a relative newbie, but is it possible that the lack of a good boil is causing a buildup of excessive DMS? Can't say I personally know what it tastes like, but I've heard it described as a cooked corn or even a cabbage-like taste. I guess it's present in all beers to some extent, but insufficient boils, boiling with the lid on, or slow cooling of the wort are factors that might increase DMS to detectable levels, particularly in lighter beers. That might explain why you didn't notice it as much in your more hoppy beer.

As others have stated, it would be most helpful if you described the off-flavor. Without knowing what it tastes like it is almost impossible to tell you what to do about it.

TheJadedDog said:

As others have stated, it would be most helpful if you described the off-flavor. Without knowing what it tastes like it is almost impossible to tell you what to do about it.

Click to expand...

I know that describing flavors is very hard, even for experienced brewers. I have a hard time with it myself, unless it is one that I have become Familiar with. That said, go ahead and give it a shot, Nitroustang. It can't hurt.

JadedDog,
Bummer to read your signature. I thought I hadn't seen much of you around here lately. I myself just finally used the ingredients that I bought in early January. No specific illness here (at least until I broke my leg last month), just life working against me.
Hope you're feeling better.
Here's a to light at the end of the tunnel.

Germey said:

Bummer to read your signature. I thought I hadn't seen much of you around here lately. I myself just finally used the ingredients that I bought in early January. No specific illness here (at least until I broke my leg last month), just life working against me.
Hope you're feeling better.
Here's a to light at the end of the tunnel.

Click to expand...

Thanks mate.

I'm betting on extract twang.

blacklab said:

I'm betting on extract twang.

Click to expand...

It's in the Apfelwein, too, he said, so it's not "twang".

Since it effects beer and Apfelwein, I'm thinking its equipment or sanitation related.

I think there was a topic about this before, the I can't figure out what is going on. Maybe needs to rinse the PBW better because it will leave a film.

I'm guessing equipment infection. Temps seem reasonable for most yeasts, and it seems to follow on every batch. I'd guess not the boil either, since that is likely to change with different batches as well. Extract twang is usually noticeable, but not likely to be a major drinkability problem (unless the drinker is a hypertaster).

As has been stated, an attempt at describing the off-flavor would help (at least won't hurt), and we'd probably all like a description of your brewing process in detail. Type of equipment, methods, times, ingredients, etc.

I don't know how to describe the flavor - I have no idea what to say about it. Ok, I'll give it a shot: disgusting. That's about the best I can do...

I described it before, here. But I don't know if that's accurate or not.

I got to my LHBS and buy my ingredients, then I go to CVS and buy my water.
I put 3gal of water in the fridge, and 2gal of water in my pot.
Sanitize my carboy, airlock, and funnel.
Dump in a pound or two of DME, dissolve, bring to a boil
Go through the hop schedule, adding 1TBS irish moss and the bulk of the DME @ 15min
Take pot off burner
Pour cold water in carboy
Pour wort through funnel into carboy
shake shake shake shake shake shake
Pitch yeast @ 75 degrees
Plug carboy with airlock with alcohol in it
Put carboy in bathtub
Wait for visible signs of fermentation, drop temperature to 65-69 degrees.
Primary for 3-8 weeks
Clean/sanitize bottles/keg and siphoning equipment
fill bottles/keg and taste disgusting sample.

Ingredients:
This one was good.
My apfelwein and these two had the off flavor.
My first brew (hefeweizen) also had the off flavor.
I also did a double batch day doing EdWort's Haus Pale Ale and Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde. Extract versions I made up. EdWort's was fantastic, Biermuncher's had the off flavor.

Are you sure that its not something around your house? There was a thread somewhere, sometime, that someone was getting an off flavor and couldn't figure it out. Turned out, when he wasn't brewing beer, he was making sourdough bread. There was enough other yeasts floating around his kitchen to contaminate his beer. Someone else had an off flavor and got rid of it by closing the AC vent in his kitchen.
When all else fails, soak everything in bleach solution for a while, then rinse, rinse, rinse. I don't know of much that can survive bleach.

Keep brewing, and keep your head up!

It's really hard to say what the problem could be, but it sounds to me like you have a strong phenolic character emerging in your beers. Did they also taste rather thin? Were there hints of a plastic-like or medicinal tastes or aromas? If so, that may be symptomatic of a wild yeast infection in your plastic brewing equipment. It is almost impossible to get rid of once you get it.

It can also arise from chlorine/chloramines in your brew water (especially if it is more plasticy than clove-like or spicey). But that doesn't quite sound like what you are tasting.

Really warm fermentation temperatures, especially in combination with underpitching and/or under-aerating your wort, can sometimes lead to these off-flavours as well. But if this were the case, you wouldn't expect it in every batch you brew. I am suspecting an infection.

Try reading this to see if any off-flavours in the list relate to what you are tasting. It would help us to diagnose the problem better:
http://howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Sounds like a good process to me. Might still be bacterial infection in the equipment, or wild yeast. Perhaps you ought to take some to a professional taster or brewer and see what they say. Since it's happening to all your brews, it would be worth the effort, I think.

I want to take my brews to my LHBS.

I had this flavor in my very first batch. What's funny is I also tasted it in Schneider Weisse.

Ugh. Such a pain. I have a kegerator with 10 gallons of crap, I've already dumped 15 gallons, and my brewing is on hold

I'm moving in two weeks. When I get there, I will soak all of my equipment in bleach. How much bleach:water should my mixture be, and what's the most effective way to completely rinse my auto siphon, racking canes, and plastic tubing?

NitrouStang96 said:

Primary for 3-8 weeks
Clean/sanitize bottles/keg and siphoning equipment
fill bottles/keg and taste disgusting sample.

Click to expand...

Do you taste the flavor at bottling/kegging? (you do drink the Hydro sample don't you?)

NitrouStang96 said:

I'm moving in two weeks. When I get there, I will soak all of my equipment in bleach. How much bleach:water should my mixture be, and what's the most effective way to completely rinse my auto siphon, racking canes, and plastic tubing?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, even the best sanitizer will not be able to get rid of all the nasties in your plastic equipment. Microscopic scratches harbor bacteria and wild yeasts. Heat sanitization is your best bet (but of course, that becomes difficult with plastic items, especially long/large ones).

I had a nasty infection a while ago, and could never get rid of it no matter what sanitization technique I used. I ended up throwing away all my plastic buckets, racking tubes, canes, etc. (that solved it). Now I only use glass carboys for fermenters, silicone tubing (can be boiled to sanitize), stainless steel canes, etc. -- things that you can definitely clean and sanitize completely. Anyways, hopefully that is not your problem. If you can describe your off-flavours better (see the link I previously posted), perhaps we can rule it out.

Yes, I taste all the time. Flavor is there at bottling/kegging, so it's being developed in the fermentation process. Time in the fermenter seems to have no bearing on it. My first batch was primary 9 days secondary 9 days and had it. These last two batches were in primary 8 weeks no secondary and have it.

OOOH! I just thought of a big clue:
Apfelwein was 6 weeks in 6 separate 1gal glass containers. I'm new to this, but it seemed that the off-flavor amount varied just a bit between containers. It was all pretty gross, but I kept the best three and dumped the bottom three. In the bottom three, the flavor exhibited itself more with extra bitterness and dryness maybe - but I'm grasping at straws here to try to describe it. I think the top three were a bit sweeter and applier, but not by very much at all.

FlyGuy said:

Unfortunately, even the best sanitizer will not be able to get rid of all the nasties in your plastic equipment. Microscopic scratches harbor bacteria and wild yeasts.

Click to expand...

Get yourselves some 35% (or stronger if you can find it) H2O2. I use the same scratched up buckets for wine for 4 years running without a problem.

Additionally, after reading through the list, I'm now worried about my yeast/starters and aeration.

I usually just vigorously shake the carboy for 5 minutes or so to aerate, and I'm not sure what my starters should look like when they're ready to be pitched.

According to the list posted above, I'd say the possibilities are these:
Astringent
Medicinal
Oxidized
Yeasty



UPDATE:
If I had to pick one flavor, I would say band-aid. But don't hold me to it.


BIGGER UPDATE - HUGE NEWS!!
I just sampled the light brew and then the amber brew. There is a faint aroma of the off-flavor, but very pronounced flavor. The flavor is much more subdued now that the kegs are cold. The flavor is more subdued in the amber - it is disguised by the malts and hops. So, check it out. I have determined that every single one of my batches has this off-flavor. The beers I liked and drank had it, but they had enough bittering hops to mostly drown it out and more grains as well. I am going to add potent hop teas to both of these and drink them, so I'm not as depressed now as I was earlier.

I don't want to make a habit of disguising the flavor with additional hops and malts, however, so I'm going to get samples of my brews to the guys at the LHBS.

Im new to this but in my readings I have read if you leave your beer in your primary for more than 3 weeks or so the beer would start to take on some of the flavors that the dead yeast and other fermentation byproducts. This is why for beers that need longer conditoning are moved to a secondary. You said you had a beer in the primary for 8 weeks if I read right.

GunnerMan said:

Im new to this but in my readings I have read if you leave your beer in your primary for more than 3 weeks or so the beer would start to take on some of the flavors that the dead yeast and other fermentation byproducts. This is why for beers that need longer conditoning are moved to a secondary. You said you had a beer in the primary for 8 weeks if I read right.

Click to expand...

I routinely leave my beers on primary for 4-6 weeks with no ill effects. I have heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that longer is still pretty safe.

mr x said:

Get yourselves some 35% (or stronger if you can find it) H2O2. I use the same scratched up buckets for wine for 4 years running without a problem.

Click to expand...

Except that you are talking about PREVENTING infection. I am talking about getting rid of one embedded in equipment. Very different scenarios, unfortunately.

No, I'm talking about getting rid of the infection. Sanitation strength H2O2 beats all. Nothing survives.

Germey said:

I am planning a group brew sometime in the next several weeks with him, a first timer, and a guy with a few batches under his belt, but not recently.
If you can stand the old farts, I'll let you know when it's happening.

Click to expand...

Hey I am in your neck of the woods too. I would be interested in learning from some more experienced brewers. I am out of town until July but after that I would be up for a group brew (that is if you don't mind a young whippersnapper hanging out with the old farts )

to the OP, if the group brew gets together bring some samples for everyone to taste. More experienced palettes can detect every little detail. I think I am a pretty serious beer drinker but my palette for beer is just starting to mature beyond just "Tastes good" and "Blech, this is BMC"

The funny thing is that it's really undrinkably disgusting in a lighter beer, but some malts and hops do a good job of making it not just drinkable, but quite enjoyable. I got some learnin' ta do, for sure.

GunnerMan said:

Im new to this but in my readings I have read if you leave your beer in your primary for more than 3 weeks or so the beer would start to take on some of the flavors that the dead yeast and other fermentation byproducts. This is why for beers that need longer conditoning are moved to a secondary. You said you had a beer in the primary for 8 weeks if I read right.

Click to expand...

This can happen, but not the way you describe. A lot of people, new and experienced, don't fully understand how this works.

its called autolysis, and takes a while. yeast will simply go dormant and stay dormant for some time. eventually they start dying.

1 month in primary should be plenty, but going over that (assuming temperatures are still kept in check) would still be ok. I wouldn't push primary past two months though.

and, once you rack to secondary, autolysis is damn near impossible, as you just don't have enough yeast left to cause it. it would be drank before autolysis off flavors could develop.


band-aid flavor is typically a lack of rinsing bleach based sanitizers...or an infection.

Foovanadil said:

Hey I am in your neck of the woods too. I would be interested in learning from some more experienced brewers. I am out of town until July but after that I would be up for a group brew (that is if you don't mind a young whippersnapper hanging out with the old farts )

to the OP, if the group brew gets together bring some samples for everyone to taste. More experienced palettes can detect every little detail. I think I am a pretty serious beer drinker but my palette for beer is just starting to mature beyond just "Tastes good" and "Blech, this is BMC"

Click to expand...

This could work. To manage expectations, please understand that, so far, the only non-noob brewer can barely wipe his own ass let alone organize a brew-in teaching fest with an off flavor clinic.

Updates to follow.

BTW, any chance any one know what burnt DME taste like in beer? I haven't burnt one yet, but I'm wondering if you burnt your DME while boiling it? I guess you would know if your pot has a brunt mark at the bottom, but I'm thinking not always the case if you keep stirring.

Nah, that's not it.

Change out your rubber stoppers. Infections get in there and just do not go away. Just about any time someone develops an "unpleasant house flavor," it's in the stoppers.


TL