Mashing question

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NyPDFustercluck

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I'm getting ready to put together the extract with grains version of "who's your taddy" porter tomorrow and had a question. The recipe calls for a simple steep of the brown, crystal 40 and chocolate malt (3# total) then 6.6# of LME. Would I be doing anything detrimental by mashing then sparging the grains instead? I've been doing partial mashes for my last four batches and am comfortable with the process.

Any benefits/detriments anyone can suggest would be great!
 
Mashing specialty grains is not very effective unless you have some base malts in with them!
Has something to do with the diastatic power in base malts being higher and enzyme activity, I cannot explain it really in depth but I believe it is something like that!

From what I have read you should have about 1/3 specialty grains in the total grain bill!
 
The only real difference between a mash and steeping is what you're getting out of the grains. For instance, your crystal does not have the diastatic power to convert starch to sugar, so mashing it or steeping it will make no difference - either way you're not getting sugars out of the crystal, you're just getting color and flavor. If you're comfortable with mashing, then go for it - just know that it's extra effort as a 30 min. steep at a less consistent temp will yield you the same results.
 
The only real difference between a mash and steeping is what you're getting out of the grains. For instance, your crystal does not have the diastatic power to convert starch to sugar, so mashing it or steeping it will make no difference - either way you're not getting sugars out of the crystal, you're just getting color and flavor. If you're comfortable with mashing, then go for it - just know that it's extra effort as a 30 min. steep at a less consistent temp will yield you the same results.

Not exactly, regarding sugars from crystal malt. Crystal malt has lots of fermentable sugars, even when you just steep then alone. Check details at

http://beertech.blogspot.com/2011/03/crystal-malt-experiment-attenuation.html
 
Not exactly, regarding sugars from crystal malt. Crystal malt has lots of fermentable sugars, even when you just steep then alone. Check details at

http://beertech.blogspot.com/2011/03/crystal-malt-experiment-attenuation.html

Interesting, but I think that's a different point. I should have been clearer when I said "you're not getting sugars out of the crystal," by saying that you're not "mashing" sugars out of the crystal. It has complex sugars as a result of the process of heating the specialty grains.

The link you sent is with regard to the fermentability of those sugars. It begins with an odd statement/question: "ugars from crystal malts are not fermentable, right?" Of course that's not right - some of the sugars are not fermentable, which is how you get a sweet, caramel flavor from the grains, but other of the sugars are perfectly fermentable. The point I was trying to make is that there is no diastatic power to crystal malts because of the process they have undergone to become crystal malts. Thus, mashing them will not yield you any sugar that you would not have got out of the steep because there is no way for the starches to convert to sugar.
 
The short answer to the OP is no. Mashing replaces steeping so if you are doing all grain, just put all your grain in together.
 
30 min more and 2/3 the grain bill- with base malts andyou got a mash.More water for the base malts of course.Its possible to get conversion in 30 min but 60 min is more of a just to make shure thing for fermentables and you will get some fermentables in a mash not steepfrom crystal not much but cyrstal is meant to give you unfermentables
 
Interesting, but I think that's a different point. I should have been clearer when I said "you're not getting sugars out of the crystal," by saying that you're not "mashing" sugars out of the crystal. It has complex sugars as a result of the process of heating the specialty grains.

The link you sent is with regard to the fermentability of those sugars. It begins with an odd statement/question: "ugars from crystal malts are not fermentable, right?" Of course that's not right - some of the sugars are not fermentable, which is how you get a sweet, caramel flavor from the grains, but other of the sugars are perfectly fermentable. The point I was trying to make is that there is no diastatic power to crystal malts because of the process they have undergone to become crystal malts. Thus, mashing them will not yield you any sugar that you would not have got out of the steep because there is no way for the starches to convert to sugar.


I see what you meant now.
That odd statement/question doesn't seems that odd to me. Many, I mean many, brewers believe that crystal malts do not add any fermentables. I'm actually surprised that you knew otherwise.
 
I see what you meant now.
That odd statement/question doesn't seems that odd to me. Many, I mean many, brewers believe that crystal malts do not add any fermentables. I'm actually surprised that you knew otherwise.

I think most people know that they add fermentables, as well as flavor. But most of us realize that by steeping them, you're not doing the CONVERTING of those sugars. It's already been converted by the processing. The sugars are available without conversion, so to speak.

I know that in the past, I've commented on some recipes but not meant "nothing" literally. As an example, a guy posted that he made a beer with 6 pounds of crystal malt, 3 pounds of carapils, etc, and I said something like "you won't get anything out of that recipe since you didn't use base malt". I of course didn't mean that he would get 0 sugars out of the crystal, but that the recipe was sorely lacking and would not make beer. Sometimes things we say don't "translate" well on the internet.
 
That odd statement/question doesn't seems that odd to me. Many, I mean many, brewers believe that crystal malts do not add any fermentables. I'm actually surprised that you knew otherwise.

Well, I wish I could claim to have some superior independent knowledge or something, but it was just something I learned from reading How to Brew when I was researching the difference between base malts and specialty malts before moving to partial mash brewing.

Here's the page that I referred to back then:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12.html

The relevant portion seems to be when he says "esides the lighter-colored base and toasted malts, there is another group of malts that don't need to be mashed and these are often referred to as "specialty malts". They are used for flavoring and have no diastatic power whatsoever. Some of these malts have undergone special heating processes in which the starches are converted to sugars by heat and moisture right inside the hull. As a result, these malts contain more complex sugars, some of which do not ferment, leaving a pleasant caramel-like sweetness."
 
I don't think Palmer was talking about crystal malts. I know crystals are considered specialty malts, but I thought crystals has been treated differently. At least that's what I thought.
Also, Palmer seems to indicate that all sugars were already converted inside the specialty malt. For crystals, that doesn't seem to be the case as starch is present In crystals and can be converted as long as mashed with la base malt.
We may be saying the same thing in different words.
 
I don't think Palmer was talking about crystal malts. I know crystals are considered specialty malts, but I thought crystals has been treated differently. At least that's what I thought.
Also, Palmer seems to indicate that all sugars were already converted inside the specialty malt. For crystals, that doesn't seem to be the case as starch is present In crystals and can be converted as long as mashed with la base malt.
We may be saying the same thing in different words.

Hehe, well, I'm pretty sure he was talking about crystal malts because the next sentence directly after the portion that I quoted says: "These pre-converted malts (called caramel or crystal malts) are available in different roasts or colors (denoted by the color unit Lovibond), each having a different degree of fermentability and characteristic sweetness (e.g. Crystal 40, Crystal 60)."
 
Hehe, well, I'm pretty sure he was talking about crystal malts because the next sentence directly after the portion that I quoted says: "These pre-converted malts (called caramel or crystal malts) are available in different roasts or colors (denoted by the color unit Lovibond), each having a different degree of fermentability and characteristic sweetness (e.g. Crystal 40, Crystal 60)."

That doesn't mean anything.
Explain to me why it is recommended to add crystals to get residual sweetness?
That is because we used to believe that sugars from crystals are very unfermentable, which is not true.
 
That doesn't mean anything.
Explain to me why it is recommended to add crystals to get residual sweetness?
That is because we used to believe that sugars from crystals are very unfermentable, which is not true.

They aren't as fermentable as some other items. And they provide a wonderful sweetness to a beer because of the way they are made. As was mentioned above, they are processed differently that "mashing" malts. They are stewed first, then malted, then kilned. That means they are already converted, so they don't need to be mashed. Although they can go right into the mash, they don't have to be. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Crystal_and_caramel_malt
 
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