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Bravo is a bittering hop so its not going to have much flavor.

HopsDirect describes it as a dual-purpose hop, which is why I chose that one, but wouldn't 2 oz in cube (counts as a 20-30 minute addition) really up the bitterness from the .5 oz I was originally planning, especially for such a high-AA variety?

I know The Pol changed cube-hop to transfer hop (added at flame-out, but not transferred to cube), which he lists as the equivalent of a 20m addition, so perhaps I should go that route, but still, 2 ounces? I'm just afraid of making this too bitter. As previously stated, I like smoother IPA with more hop flavor than bitterness. That smooth bitterness will come from FWH, as will some flavor. More flavor will come from the transfer/cube hops, as will some bitterness.
 
For you guys who are no-chilling and then fermenting in the cube, what do you do to clean out the cube when your done? I've only fermented in glass, so it's easy for me to see if there is still stuff crusted on there... My cubes are translucent but barely so, so I don't trust visual inspection from the outside and I can't see much inside. I use pbw but just bought some oxy clean which I would prefer to use cause it's cheaper. If you do use oxy, how much do you use for five gallons? Do you let it sit a couple days and shake it now and then?
 
For you guys who are no-chilling and then fermenting in the cube, what do you do to clean out the cube when your done? I've only fermented in glass, so it's easy for me to see if there is still stuff crusted on there... My cubes are translucent but barely so, so I don't trust visual inspection from the outside and I can't see much inside. I use pbw but just bought some oxy clean which I would prefer to use cause it's cheaper. If you do use oxy, how much do you use for five gallons? Do you let it sit a couple days and shake it now and then?

You got it right: PBW or OxyClean for a few hours. Just a regular scoop of OC should do it. If not, use more. Not sure on PBW because I've never used it. Star-San is also a good possibility, but it may take a couple days, and double-strength would probably be your best bet for that.
 
For you guys who are no-chilling and then fermenting in the cube, what do you do to clean out the cube when your done? I've only fermented in glass, so it's easy for me to see if there is still stuff crusted on there... My cubes are translucent but barely so, so I don't trust visual inspection from the outside and I can't see much inside. I use pbw but just bought some oxy clean which I would prefer to use cause it's cheaper. If you do use oxy, how much do you use for five gallons? Do you let it sit a couple days and shake it now and then?

I rinse the Winpak out as best I can, then fill with a scoop of oxyclean and hot water. I do a few shakes before it is completely full, but I let the foam settle and really do fill it completely. Then I seal it up, and store it upside down overnight (or until I get to it). That generally does it, though one can repeat if necessary.
 
Hey guys just wanted to let you know that I posted a video of my all grain brew day with the no chill brew method. This was my first batch chilling this way! Let me know what you think. And thanks again for all the info!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgGm5Hh8rAg&feature=channel_video_title

Good job on the video...(I had some trouble viewing the embedded version here, but watched on YouTube and it played just fine). I'll check out your Part 3 (kegging) one soon; curious to see others' processes!

Chad
 
I rinse the Winpak out as best I can, then fill with a scoop of oxyclean and hot water. I do a few shakes before it is completely full, but I let the foam settle and really do fill it completely. Then I seal it up, and store it upside down overnight (or until I get to it). That generally does it, though one can repeat if necessary.

Same here.

You can see the bottom to see if it's clean.

The real danger is the top inside that you can't see, where most of the krausen will be.
 
That's right. I took the spears out and I let it chill with a #11 stopper with a 3 piece airlock with the inside taken out. When it is down to temp (like 36-48 hours) I pitch the yeast and put the inside back in. Done and done. Then i use the keg washer i built using a copper pipe with slits and a sump pump. Its probably not the most sanitary system..... but it works pretty well for me.

One more set of Qs: after it ferments out, do you then carbonate the very same keg? if so, what about the yeast cake?
 
Okay, finally got around to putting both my setup and recipe into BrewTarget and here's what I got:

13 lb Maris Otter

1.25 oz Bravo (15.5% AA) FWH (calculated as 30 min in BrewTarget), 37.8 IBU
1.00 oz Bravo, Cube/transfer hop (20 min in BT), 27.5 IBU
1.00 oz Bravo, Dry-hop, 0.0 IBU

Assuming 75% eff., mashing at 152 for 90 min, I get
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.016
ABV: 6.2%
IBU: 65.4
SRM: 6.8
BU:GU: 1.03

Would anyone who's done a no-chill IPA tell me if that about adds up? I posted this a few days ago, but have since tweaked it with a little input from others. This is also the first time I feel fairly confident in my software calculations.
 
One more set of Qs: after it ferments out, do you then carbonate the very same keg? if so, what about the yeast cake?

You mean like making a cask/Real Ale? That seems like a really good introduction to cask conditioning (drill the cap, put in a spigot/tap), except the Winpaks only have one opening (no good way for air to get in). Also, you'd miss out on any flavors contributed by a wooden cask, but I really like the idea. Someone should look into this...
 
1.25 oz Bravo (15.5% AA) FWH (calculated as 30 min in BrewTarget), 37.8 IBU
1.00 oz Bravo, Cube/transfer hop (20 min in BT), 27.5 IBU
1.00 oz Bravo, Dry-hop, 0.0 IBU


Looks like a plan! Give it a go. Like I said in my first post about Bravo, I dont know much about it. However, you will likely be an expert on Bravo after you make this. Cheers!
 
Having done a crap ton of No Chill batches in the last year or so, I'm sort of starting to question how the "transfer" addition contributes to flavor and bitterness.

The conventional wisdom here is that a transfer addition counts as a 15-20 minute addition. I planned my beers accordingly. HOWEVER, for me, I noticed that my beers were not quite as bitter, as I'd hoped, nor were they quite as hoppy either, even with "big" additions at transfer. I suspect there are a ton of factors that come into play here, including length of time for your cube to cool down, if the hops are free floating in the cube, the alpha of the hops, etc.

The end result of my personal brewing (YMMV) is that transfer additions contribute the flavor of a 15-20 addition, but oddly enough, do not contribute ANY bitterness at all. Observe my recent experiment below:

5 gallons - ESB
10lb Pale Malt
.5oz Magnum @ 60 (bittering)
3oz US Goldings @ transfer (flavor) (no hop bag/sock, left in cube for 2 days before pitching yeast)
WLP 007 Dry English Yeast
Mash at 152F
OG: 1.050 - FG: 1.015

Result: Beer tastes slightly SWEET, not very hoppy, but has a nice, mild hop aroma & flavor reminicent of "flowers" (not surprising since its Goldings I'm tasting)

IBU if transfer hops count as 1-5 minutes: 28
IBU if transfer hops count as 20 mintes: 40

No way this is a 40 IBU beer, it comes across slightly sweet & mild.

SO, your millage may vary, but for me, I count transfer additions as fairly ineffective 15 minute addition when it comes to flavor, and as a 0 or 5 minute addition in regards to bitterness.
 
One more set of Qs: after it ferments out, do you then carbonate the very same keg? if so, what about the yeast cake?


You mean like making a cask/Real Ale? That seems like a really good introduction to cask conditioning (drill the cap, put in a spigot/tap), except the Winpaks only have one opening (no good way for air to get in). Also, you'd miss out on any flavors contributed by a wooden cask, but I really like the idea. Someone should look into this...

Actually, I was thinking in terms of if one uses a sanke (or corny) keg to no-chill and ferment, whether or not you could then simply connect the co2, carb it and serve it (figuring that the first few pints would be yeast cake rich). That seems messy/potential for clogging, but would be interesting/time saving if it's doable.

But, maybe it's necessary to transfer from the no-chill/fermenter keg into another keg.

That said, if I'm onto something with the winpak acting as a cask conditioned ale, my patent is pending. LOL.
 
You mean like making a cask/Real Ale? That seems like a really good introduction to cask conditioning (drill the cap, put in a spigot/tap), except the Winpaks only have one opening (no good way for air to get in). Also, you'd miss out on any flavors contributed by a wooden cask, but I really like the idea. Someone should look into this...

The Rectangular Winpak
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=41848&catid=459
and the Fort Pak
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23516&clickid=redirect
both have a second hole, so they'll work for cask conditioning ale.

I've used a 2 1/2 gallon Fort Pak for cask ale and it works great.

You just have to drink the beer in a few days, or it will go off.

And the wooden thing- the vast majority of casks being used are stainless steel or plastic. The very few wooden casks are novelty items.
 
SO, your millage may vary, but for me, I count transfer additions as fairly ineffective 15 minute addition when it comes to flavor, and as a 0 or 5 minute addition in regards to bitterness.

Try to do some first wort hopping and see if that doesn't improve your flavor retention. For american hops, I've been pretty impressed with the no-chill process and the flavor from first wort and flame out additions.
 
Nutty, what are some typical hop amounts you use for FWH and flamoeout for, say, a normal Pale Ale?

I ask because my experiment above resulted in a lot less hop flavor that I would have otherwise expected from the flameout/tranfer addition.

Also, do you leave your hops floating whole in the No Chill cube, or are then in a bag of some kind. Or strained out before the transfer? Lots of variable, so I guess I'll have to brew more to go through them all! Score!
 
Here is a Centennial pale ale that I did last november...

Ingredients:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 90.00 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 10.00 %
0.66 oz Centennial - Hops on hand [5.10 %] (Dry HHops -
1.00 oz Centennial - Hops on hand [5.10 %] First Wort Hops 23.9 IBU
1.50 oz Centennial - Hops on hand [5.10 %] 21 min (added at 1 min to flameout) 13.2 IBU
1.00 items Campden Tablet (Mash 0.0 min) Misc
1.05 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs SafAle US-05 (House Slurry #Cake of US-05)Yeast-Ale

Calculates out to 37 IBUs. And that seems ok.

This one tastes like biting into a piece of pine wood, it is crazy full of flavor. I DONT use a cube, I just toss the flameout hops in the kettle then let the kettle cool (covered) for around 16 to 23 hours (depending on ambient temp). Then I siphon the wort off the trub and hop sludge to the fementer and pitch. I dont use hop bags.

I cite this one because it was so full of flavor I had to let it mellow before I started to really enjoy it. Try the same approach with palisades hops, or cascade if cetennial isn't your thing. People seem to enjoy my palisades version of this.
 
And here is my Pine Cone Pale Ale:

7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
3 lbs Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 27.27 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
1.00 oz Centennial - HOH [6.00 %] (60 min) Hops 24.4 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade - Hops on Hand [3.80 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Centennial - HOH [6.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Cascade - HOH [3.80 %] (25 min) Hops 12.5 IBU
1.00 items Chemicals - Campden Tab., pH 5.2, Whirlfloc Tab. (Mash 0.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Old Newark Ale (ECY #ECY10) Yeast-Ale

This one doesn't have first wort hops. Just a one ounce bittering addition at the boil and then 2 ounces cascade for flavor and then 2 ounces dry. Pretty flavorful, especially if you have a yeast that dries it out like ECY10. Same methods as the previous post.

PS: your WLP-007 yeast should not leave your beer sweet unless you have added a lot of crystal malt or some other dextrins. Sweet beer will kill hops flavor/bitterness and your yeast is something you should look into.
 
The end result of my personal brewing (YMMV) is that transfer additions contribute the flavor of a 15-20 addition, but oddly enough, do not contribute ANY bitterness at all.

This method of hop addition will definitely contribute bitterness, but I don't know how to quantify it. I did a batch where the only hop addition was 4 oz of Summit 14.0% added to the bucket and allowed to cool overnight. The hops were pellets in a bag and I removed them before I pitched the yeast the next day ~20 hours later. The resultant beer was loaded with hop flavor, had a good amount of aroma, and bitter as you would expect an american pale ale / IPA to be. I don't have a good judge of bitterness based on IBU number but I would say maybe a little more bitter than Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

That being said, I added 4 oz of 14.0% hops which would be about as bitter as you can get with a 60 minute boil, but didn't come out with over the top bitterness using this method.
 
I just wanted to chime in and say i finally went ahead and tried no-chilling this past weekend. We'll see how it turns out. I brewed a mini-mash version of my Frozen Dawn American Mild (loosely based on Orfy's Mild). I'll report back in two weeks.
 
Hi, New member here! I hate dragging out hoses and taking the extra time to chill. I love brewing but am basically lazy. I'm going to do brew in a bag and no chill, with some full boil extracts thrown in. Question: Has anyone experimented with simply reducing hop amounts rather than reducing boil time? I apologize if this has already been asked, but holy jeepers, this is more than 100 page thread! I will read it all, but in addition to being lazy I'm impatient! Thanks!

Thanks!
 
Or, perhaps, I could lie to my beer software and tell it I'm boiling for 80 mins, but really boil 60 mins, and tell it I'm boiling 50 mins but really boil 30 mins, etc... it seems to me that the IBU's will get calculated correctly. Anybody try it?
 
Well, add me to the list of people trying no-chill. Just got done cleaning up. The cube is sitting in the corner, doing it's thing. I'm excited to see how it comes out. It saved me 30-45 minutes on my brewday and I didn't have to mess with ice, a cooler, a pre-chiller, a chiller, pump, etc. Fingers crossed.

6a24b808.jpg
 
Did my first two No Chills this weekend and I found that it made the whole brewing experience that much better (Chilling the wort was my least favorite part of the brew day).

Lots of a really good info in this thread which helped sway me into trying it. I can't wait to see how the beers turn out; if they are both even decent drinks I will never chill again.
 
Bradinator and Austin, you guys should post your recipe and a report on the resulting beer here when you are ready. The more data we have on this technique, the better.

I've done decently hoppy beers and Pilsner lagers with this technique. Its really great!
 
This is going to ferment for at least 3 months in the primary, then another 6 months in bottles. I brewed this to celebrate my future kid and plan to crack open the first one the day we bring him/her back from the hospital!

Belgian Dark Strong Ale
Recipe Type: Partial Mash
Yeast: Yeast harvested from commercial Unibroue (La Fin Du Monde)
Yeast Starter: Yes (1.5L)
Batch Size (Gallons): 4 gallons
Original Gravity: 1.082
Est Final Gravity: 1.014
IBU: 35
Boiling Time (Minutes): 75
Color: 18 SRM

Ingredients –
Grains/Extract/Adjucts
· 8.0 lbs Pilsner Malt
· 1.0 lbs Biscuit
· 1.0 lbs Rye Malt
· 750g Light DME + 250g late addition @ 10 min
· 1.5 lbs Belgian Candi Sugar
Hops
· 1.5 oz Hallertauer @ 60min
· 1 oz Saaz @ 10min
Misc
· ½ tsp Irish Moss
· 1 tsp Yeast Nutrient
· 1 cup of washed yeast
· 1 package Windsor Yeast, dry @ 3 days

Partial mash, grains mashed at 150F for 90min (BIAB), Efficiency was terrible (60%), but lessons learned on mash volumes...


-------------------
Basically this is a junk recipe made from junk kicking around my kitchen. I had some left over hops and DME, plus some adjuncts, tossed them all into a pot, boiled for 60 minutes and let cool overnight.

No idea if this will even be tasty... But its a No Chill at any rate!

Kitchen Leftovers Mild Brown
Recipe Type: Extract
Yeast: Windsor
Yeast Starter: No
Batch Size (Gallons): 3 gallons
Original Gravity: 1.035
Est Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU: 40
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 5 SRM

Ingredients —
525g DME, + 80g late addition @ 20 min
500g Honey
50g Molasses
50g Corn Syrup
1 oz Styrian Gold (hops) @ 60 min
1 tsp Irish Moss @ 10 min
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ Flame out

This will get about 3 weeks in the primary and 2 weeks in bottles. Updates to come as I start to drink these!
 
The only science I can think of is that you definitely will see effects in hop isomerization which leads to more bitterness and less aroma. I've still made good IPAs, but not ideal. I've never notice a difference on anything else.
 
Everyone has to walk their own path as a brewer. Each home brewer must consider time, cost, feasibility, and results of their efforts. If a homebrewer can strike a happy balance between those 4 aspects, then they are doing it right regardless of the brewing method.
 
Had a No-Chill Munich Helles go onto second round of NHC, didn't place put still a decent score. Could it have been better if I "properly" chilled it? Possibly... But it might have also done better if I mashed a degree higher, used different water, more/less hops, different hops, different hop schedule, warmer/colder fermentation. Just too many factors to ever say just one would have made it the best beer I could make. Has No-Chill brewing been scientifically proven to produce the same quality beers? Of course not, it also hasn't been scientifically proven to make beers of lesser quality.

I'm also of the opinion that just because something is in print from a "credible source" doesn't make it right for every brewer or every beer, it is usually just what that source knows from their experience.
 
curious if anyone has ever ran across any published reading material that is backed up by scientific research to say no chilling makes the same quality beer as chilling... .. yes you may not get infected, yes you make drinkable beer.. but is it truly the best beer you could have made? i think there's a lot of smoke being blown on this subject

While I respect your skepticism, those of us who No Chill are going to be a little off put by your insinuation that we're tricking ourselves into thinking we're making good beer :mad:. Please don't forget that No Chill brewing has been done by literally thousands of home brewers since it was developed a few years back on the Australian Brewing Scene. (Hell, down there you can even buy pre-made wort sealed in jugs.)

However, I feel the only way to "prove" that No Chill works is by posting BJCP-certified judges' scoresheets on beers we've done as No Chill. I'll go find the ones I can and post them later (I don't do too many beers in competitions though), and I encourage others to do the same.

I'll tell you straight up though, not only do I think No Chill isn't harmfull, I think it's downright HELPFUL for flavor in some beers. For example, I've started doing lager this year, and I've done 3 total (all No Chills). I'm able to get my No Chill cube down to perfect pitching temps (48-52F) before I open it to move the wort to a carboy. My 3 lagers have all come out perfectly clean, not a trace of DMS or Diacytl in any of them. There's no way I'll be struggling to get a batch down to 50F with my stupid hot Florida tap water (~70-75F).
 
Wow, he has infected this thread as well.

To everyone else...To me, it is about saving water. I can't think of a bigger waste of water than using it to cool wort. Everything else is just a bonus...no sanatizing chillers or risk of infections from them, no dealing with pumps, etc,etc,etc. It is just easier and my beers are amazing and clear in a month
 
I haven't posted in this thread yet, but I have to say that I LOVE no chill brewing!

I have a copper wort chiller, and I see it as a complete wast of money!

Luckily, I think I can turn it into a jockey box.
 
i didn't say there was anything wrong with doing it that way ever... i'm asking if any of this has been backed up by a credible source.. not everyone can have a 14 cu ft chest freezer. recirculating mash tun, whirlpool chillers with inline therminator.March pumps all over the place.. i understand that.. but people are claiming this has NO effect on their beer.. i think that's just simply not a true statement.. lets call a spade a spade here..

Nothing anyone writes on an internet board will ever be enough to convince everyone. Instead, I suggest you brew a cheap recipe using a basic no chill process and see for yourself. You don't even need a cube as has been mentioned so many times before. Then see for yourself how it goes and if you like it.
 
I must admit I haven't read the entire thread here, but I learned about no-chill brewing a few years ago on the aussiehomebrewer.com forum and did a couple of batches where I ran the hot wort directly into a corny keg, hit it with 60# of CO2 to seal it, and then let it cool down slowly on my balcony (I never tried it with a "cube" as they call it).

When I opened up the keg a day or two later to siphon it into my fermenter, I was hit with the most foul vegetal aroma I've ever smelled. It was awful, but I fermented it anyway. Turns out the fermentation scrubbed almost all of the nasty aromas out of the beer. I say "almost" all because even in the finished beer, I could still detect it. I took a few bottles to my local homebrew club meeting without telling anyone what I did, and a bunch of people noticed the same thing and asked me if I had any problems chilling down the wort fast enough. It wasn't undrinkable and I think if it were a more robust style you wouldn't have been able to notice it (I did a blonde ale, specifically so that I would be able to detect any off-flavors), but it was there.

I haven't done a no-chill batch since those two experiments. I would absolutely love for it to work since it is really convenient, but unfortunately it really did result in off-flavors for me. Its very bizarre because many people will claim to be brewing light, delicate styles with absolutely no trace of DMS and even winning awards. I can only speculate that perhaps differing ingredients have an effect, or maybe these people are in fact inadvertently chilling a bit (maybe to just under ~180-190) before dumping in the cube, while I was racking it to the corny 30 seconds after flameout. I think it deserves a lot more experimentation and maybe eventually the homebrewing community will have a better understanding of what causes DMS rather than just saying "chill faster". But until then, I'm sticking to my immersion chiller (also, moving to a climate where my tap water is ~50F instead of 95F makes a big difference!).
 
PickledFetus I think your problem was the keg. Maybe there was some bit of crud right under your keg lid. Did you roll the keg around and turn it upside down after you poured the wort in? I would assume that would be necessary in order to pasteurize the whole keg.

I do No Chill in the plastic cube, and have just finished 3 lagers this year, including an American Pilsner, all of which had no DMS at all.
 
(I did a blonde ale, specifically so that I would be able to detect any off-flavors)
I did a blonde as well, which also came out with a bit of Band-Aid, and while I couldn't pick it out, another BJCP judge said he got a cooked veggie flavor. That said, I had some procedural issues. I opened the cube to squeeze out more air, thus exposing it to the elements, then left it in the cube for a week. In addition, it was very low hopped.

Next time I'll only open the cube to rack and pitch yeast. I'll probably up the hops a bit, too. For other batches, I've done an IPA that got the feedback "I'd buy that," and an American Wheat with similar sentiments. Just kegged a wit that was pretty spot on, if maybe a little green. I've done some other no-chill batches that have turned out pretty good, but those ones really shined.

Give it another go. As with any other brewing method, check your process, be anal retentive about sanitation, and if it helps you sleep at night, mash a little longer, boil a little longer, and hop just a little more.
 
I have no-chilled Kolsches and very Pale Ales (among others), and never had an off-flavor. I do let it cool to 190F before draining into the Winpak.
 
PickledFetus I think your problem was the keg. Maybe there was some bit of crud right under your keg lid. Did you roll the keg around and turn it upside down after you poured the wort in? I would assume that would be necessary in order to pasteurize the whole keg.

I do No Chill in the plastic cube, and have just finished 3 lagers this year, including an American Pilsner, all of which had no DMS at all.

Its possible I suppose, I just don't see it being likely. I *did* turn the keg upside down for 5-10 minutes after pressurizing it, and this was after disassembling the entire keg and soaking it all in star-san. I tasted the wort before pitching the yeast and besides the vegetal flavor and aroma, it didn't taste infected. It was still very sweet, no sourness or medicinal flavors.

And I don't want to overstate the flavor impact in the finished product. It WAS really pretty subtle. The fermentation scrubbed out much of what I tasted in the wort. In a porter, stout, or IPA I may not have noticed it. But it was still there, and I have a hard time ignoring things like that in my beer once I know its there :)

I may try it again as an experiment, but as I said, chilling my wort is no longer a pain point for me now that I'm no longer in California.
 
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