Oxygen Wand

My Oxygen system (form Williams Brewing) doesn't have a gauge so I have no way of knowing how fats the O2 is flowing.

I crack the valve just enough that I hear the flow in the wort, but don't see any big ripples. I do this for 60 seconds.

My question is - what does your wort look like, with respect to bubbles/ripples, when you oxygenate?

Am I not using enough O2?


(for what its worth, I first shake the fermentor for 60 seconds)

I got the same setup a couple of years ago. Do about the same as you with a small amount of bubbles forming at the top of the fermenter. I typically let it run for 60-90 seconds.. It seems to do the job but I’ve never measured the amount.

Yep. About a minute once I see bubbles. I know guys have upgraaaded their regulator with those systems to measure the flow.

I got tired of having no idea how much O2 was flowing into the wort with that regulator. So, I picked up an O2 regulator with a flow meter and connected it to a standard O2 bottle. Now I can send different O2 LpM rates into my wort and not worry so much. I'm planning on getting an O2 meter soon, so that I'll be able to test the infusion level for different O2 worts. That way I can be even more certain of the O2 level (ppm) in the wort.

With the O2 regulator with flow meter being so cheap (easily found under $30) and how many batches you get even from a 20 cubic foot tank, it comes out to being as cheap, if not cheaper, than the tiny bottles you get form HD and Lowe's. At least around here it is.

>.I picked up an O2 regulator with a flow meter a

Please post a link to where you got it.


>>20 cubic foot tank,

How many 5 gallon batches is that good for? 100?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006980H1O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Still on my first fill of the 20 cubic tank. I'll have to check my records to see for certain but I believe I've already used it for 10-20 batches. Still plenty of O2 left in it.

Does oxygenating wart with a stone really work? I know for fish tanks Air stones primarily work by creating surface agitation, the bubbles release little to no air into the water itself.

Co2 on the other hand can be injected into fish tanks as micro bubbles and you can see the Co2 dissolve into the water on it's way to the top.

So for those of you injecting pure oxygen into wart, can you physically see the bubbles shrinking or disappearing into the wart?

>.So for those of you injecting pure oxygen into wart, can you physically see the bubbles shrinking or disappearing into the wart?

Typically you inject the O2 near the bottom. If you have a higher flow rate, you will see the wort ripple, as its displaced, and O2 is lost.
In other words - a high flow rate probably does nothing.
But at lower flow rates, you hear and feel the displacement, but don't really see the ripples.
I use a low flow rate, for a minute.


>>Does oxygenating wart with a stone really work?

I can't prove it, I only have anecdotal evidence for 1 batch (I haven't taken a FG reading on my second batch yet).
The first batch did attenuate more. But I also used yeast nutrient, and I mashed at 150.
I am bottling later today and will see how that is.

Justintoxicated said:

Does oxygenating wart with a stone really work?[...]

Click to expand...

Of course, and as proven with DO meters in the hands of reputable individuals...

Cheers!

day_trippr said:

Of course, and as proven with DO meters in the hands of reputable individuals...

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Well I have no doubt that adding surface agitation oxygenates the wort, what what I'm more curious about is if the oxygen is actually absorbing into the wort via the airstone, vs the airstone creating surface agitation that allows oxygen exchange.

In the case of a fish-tank airstone, it's the surface agitation that oxygenates the water, not the air passing through the water itself. I would imagine wort would be the same, but I could certainly be wrong. For fish, it's better to create a slight ripple in the surface of the tank vs using a noisy airstone for just that reason.

If this is the case though I would prefer other methods of creating surface agitation over pumping in oxygen, to reduce contamination risk, and cost.

>>what what I'm more curious about is if the oxygen is actually absorbing into the wort via the airstone, vs the airstone creating surface agitation that allows oxygen exchange.

That's an interesting question.

The use of an Oxygen wand is suggested in a number of reputable places, such as the White Labs and Wyeast.
They don't say to first Oxygenate the water, then rock the fermentor to dissolve the O2 in the head space. They say some do that, but don't say its mandatory.
If the O2 is not directly absorbed into the wort, then I think the O2 systems should spell this out "After oxygenating, seal the fermenting chamber and shake/rock it for a minute to dissolve the O2 in the head space.

ArcLight said:

>>what what I'm more curious about is if the oxygen is actually absorbing into the wort via the airstone, vs the airstone creating surface agitation that allows oxygen exchange.

That's an interesting question.

The use of an Oxygen wand is suggested in a number of reputable places, such as the White Labs and Wyeast.
They don't say to first Oxygenate the water, then rock the fermentor to dissolve the O2 in the head space. They say some do that, but don't say its mandatory.
If the O2 is not directly absorbed into the wort, then I think the O2 systems should spell this out "After oxygenating, seal the fermenting chamber and shake/rock it for a minute to dissolve the O2 in the head space.

Click to expand...

I know it is try for fish tasks but wort could be different I don't have three equipment to set up an experiment

The question of how much O2 gets into the wort is why I plan on getting the O2 meter soon. I also have some air stones that are tighter that I'll be able to test with. Once I've tested. I'll post the results.

>>The question of how much O2 gets into the wort is why I plan on getting the O2 meter soon. I also have some air stones that are tighter that I'll be able to test with. Once I've tested. I'll post the results.

That would be great!
Thank you Golddiggie.

Golddiggie said:

The question of how much O2 gets into the wort is why I plan on getting the O2 meter soon. I also have some air stones that are tighter that I'll be able to test with. Once I've tested. I'll post the results.

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Nice! do you have a method without an airstone that can create surface agitation too?

I think it will be interesting to see fine bubbles compared to large bubbles as well though. Fine air bubbles should oxygenate better if the O2 is being absorbed into the war, and larger bubbles that create more surface agitation should work better if the surface agitation is what is oxygenating the wort. or at least I should think so Flow rate could also be a factor.

That's an interesting question is how much better is a 0.5 micron air stone tan a 2 micron air stone?

I think the 0.5 tend to block up a lot more, though I wonder if that's a function of not cleaning it right away, and not using it with an Oxygen tank.

ArcLight said:

That's an interesting question is how much better is a 0.5 micron air stone tan a 2 micron air stone?

I think the 0.5 tend to block up a lot more, though I wonder if that's a function of not cleaning it right away, and not using it with an Oxygen tank.

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In a fishtank it is quit significant when injecting Co2, but I have no idea about 02 in wort. Mainly because you get more surface area when breaking Co2 into tiny particles, and they have the opportunity to be blown across more of the water by a pump etc before launching towards the surface. So it all goes back to the question of whether or not the O2 is absorbing into the wort due to oxygen injection, or via surface disruption.

Don't know how it works, but I've seen much more aggressive fermentations since I began using my O2 stone. Fermentation seems to take off and finish faster too.

I used to pour the wort between buckets to aerate. I don't even agitate the wort anymore. I just rack into my carboy and use the stone for 1 minute at low volume.

I link this blog every once in a while but it doesn't seem to "catch" on this forum... I'm not sure why. It's not my work... the guy who made it last posted on this forum like in 2008 as far as I can tell, and I don't think he's updated his blog since 2010. Nevertheless, he *did* measure dissolved O2 in the wort after various methods of wort aeration, and found that O2 stones are very wasteful compared to hitting the headspace of your fermenter with pure O2, and stirring with a paint stirrer (or wine degassing stirrer) for a while. Agitation is what dissolves O2.

http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/

This is interesting, thank you for the link.
I think the author said that air stones at high pressure are wasteful.
But what about low pressure, for a longer period of time?
I am not sure how much O2 I am adding, as I do it based by sound (I hear gurgling), and let it run for a minute.
Because I first shake the bucket for a minute, there is a foam on top, even if I spray it down. Maybe I should spray a "hole" in the foam so I can see if there are any ripples.
Maybe I should use low pressure for a longer time, say 90 seconds?

scone said:

I link this blog every once in a while but it doesn't seem to "catch" on this forum... I'm not sure why. It's not my work... the guy who made it last posted on this forum like in 2008 as far as I can tell, and I don't think he's updated his blog since 2010. Nevertheless, he *did* measure dissolved O2 in the wort after various methods of wort aeration, and found that O2 stones are very wasteful compared to hitting the headspace of your fermenter with pure O2, and stirring with a paint stirrer (or wine degassing stirrer) for a while. Agitation is what dissolves O2.

http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/

Click to expand...

ArcLight said:

This is interesting, thank you for the link.
I think the author said that air stones at high pressure are wasteful.
But what about low pressure, for a longer period of time?
I am not sure how much O2 I am adding, as I do it based by sound (I hear gurgling), and let it run for a minute.
Because I first shake the bucket for a minute, there is a foam on top, even if I spray it down. Maybe I should spray a "hole" in the foam so I can see if there are any ripples.
Maybe I should use low pressure for a longer time, say 90 seconds?

Click to expand...

No prob! I do think a lot of people do low pressure O2 for ~2ish minutes with good results. There's also this thread which I found quite interested (the time lapse video shows fermentation activity in terms of co2 production vs. different aeration techniques) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/definitive-aeration-oxygenation-experiment-20832/.

From my experience, "low pressure" is typically under 2LpM. I normally use 1-2LpM (most often 1.5LpM) for O2 flow when oxygenating the wort. This gives a more gentle infusion, without a lot of surface agitation of the wort. Once you see the surface reaction at those levels, it's easier to do it with the cheap small bottle regulator. Although, it can still be a PITA to try and get that rate from it.

I do 30-40 seconds (Williams recommends 50 seconds) and I have the flow so I can see a fine trail of bubbles from the stone when you hold against the side of the glass and the bubbles are reaching the top. I also pitch before aeration so it is well mixed afterwards. I don't care about foam on top, it drops quickly and then picks up when fermentation starts.

I use it with this regulator from HF that I got on sale for $25: http://www.harborfreight.com/oxygen-regulator-94846.html. Matheson Tri-Gas kindly swapped me a small CO2 bottle that I had extra for a small O2 tank. HF also has small O2 bottles that you can pickup cheap. They offer 50% off one item fairly often.

Using O2 has made a huge difference for me. The main thing I notice is no blowoff tube required. The fermentations start quicker, are more vigorous but have less gooey krausen.

Only issue with that regulator is it's still PSI. You really need LpM in order to get the PPM level in the wort. As others have pointed out (in other threads) there's no conversion from PSI to LpM.

Considering you can get LpM regulators, to go onto standard O2 (welding) tanks for ~$30-$40 ($29, $36, $39.45) I don't see the point in going with a PSI regulator.

BTW, that HF regulator is off sale now, and is going for $35. So the cost difference is minimal (if anything).

I did some data collection for O2 in wort. The procedure was using a .5 micron stone on a wand at the bottom of a glass carboy with ~5.5 gallons of wort. I don't measure the O2 on my batches anymore since the meter started flaking out (previous generation of this meter). I added a cell on my brewing spreadsheet that roughly calculates a recommended dosing time depending on gravity, wort temp and flow rate. I started out using 3 Lpm because Wyeast did some experiments at 3.5 Lpm because that's approximately what the Bernzomatic set-ups flow (based on a visual bubbling comparison to a real regulator) and 3 Lpm is the closest setting my regulator has.

scone said:

I link this blog every once in a while but it doesn't seem to "catch" on this forum... I'm not sure why. It's not my work... the guy who made it last posted on this forum like in 2008 as far as I can tell, and I don't think he's updated his blog since 2010. Nevertheless, he *did* measure dissolved O2 in the wort after various methods of wort aeration, and found that O2 stones are very wasteful compared to hitting the headspace of your fermenter with pure O2, and stirring with a paint stirrer (or wine degassing stirrer) for a while. Agitation is what dissolves O2.

http://blog.flaminio.net/blogs/index.php/beer/oxygen/

Click to expand...

This would be my belief as well, just from caring for fish. Agitation should also allow Co2 to escape from the wart. If that makes any difference.

If I had more a vigorous fermentation than the one I just had I think I would lose 1/2 my beer though. (Just shook the carboy up a ton.)