The OFFICIAL 11-11-11 Old Ale Thread - The HBT Anniversary Series

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KingBrianI

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This is it. The thread you've been waiting for. The OFFICIAL 11-11-11 thread! This year we'll be brewing an Old Ale and I think it's going to be the best anniversary series beer yet. Brewpastor originally suggested the idea of a "bugged" beer for 11-11-11 <--- just look at all those little legs. From there, we started thinking about styles that could be bugged for those who like that sort of thing, or done bugless for those who aren't into funky beer. Old Ale was a natural choice. Especially since this Fall, Wyeast are again releasing their Old Ale Blend, a combination of an attenuative English ale strain and a Brettanomyces strain. Perfect.

From there, we began attempting to come up with a recipe. A combination of pale, amber and brown malts was suggested to create a pseudo-historical base malt. Historical base malts would have been darker and less uniform so the amber and brown malts should help replicate that somewhat. A kettle caramelization step was also suggested to not only recreate a traditional long boil, but also because it creates wonderful flavors. The layered, complex caramel and toffee flavors created using this method would be perfect in an Old Ale so it was incorporated into the recipe. After throwing amounts and ideas around in this thread, jmo88 posted the final recipe here.

It should be noted that one of the coolest parts of these anniversary series beers is that each person has a slightly different take on the beer. So if you brew it, please feel free to add your own special touch to the recipe. Whether that is using a different yeast, boiling down a different amount for the kettle caramelization, oaking to your own taste, soaking the oak cubes in your favorite liquor before adding the the beer, etc., it's all welcome. When we do the exchange next year, we'll all be able to experience the subtle differences in each brewer's version.

That reminds me, some of you may be new or might not have heard about the anniversary series beers here. Let me take a minute to explain the concept and go over what it is all about. We are fortunate to be living and brewing in a time where the years combine with the dates to make neat, repeating numbers. 8/8/8, 9/9/9, 10/10/10 and now 11/11/11. To commemorate these dates, for the last several years members of HBT have been brewing a single recipe about a year prior to that date. Then, when the date approaches, we exchange our x/x/x beers along with other homebrews with 3 other members. We then have 3 other versions of the x/x/x beer in addition to our to enjoy on the x/x/x day (or thereabouts). It's a very cool experience that I heartily recommend to all members of the board.

Now, back the to the 11/11/11. I'm really excited about this recipe. When made, I imagine a beer pouring a deep polished walnut color (hence the name - Gun Stock Ale). Sweet, chewy malt with toasty and nutty overtones will form the canvas. Rich caramel and toffee will round out the flavor while deeper notes of leather, tobacco, oak, sherry and a slight horsey character from the Brett add to the complexity. A slight tartness and hints of pie cherry come through to fill out the top notes. I really think this will be the best x/x/x yet.

So, hopefully I've convinced you to brew this beer. I'm very excited about it and really think it is going to be awesome. It's a long wait to 11/11/11, but I think it will be worth it!
:mug:

AG Recipe
Partial Mash Recipe
 
Well I've got 4 beers planned already....but I suppose I could squeeze a 5th in there :mug:

One of them is already a bretted beer....gonna try my hand at an Orval clone :D
 
I AM IN!!! I was on the fence, but the more I thought about it, the more excited I got about an historic beer. I love Old Ales and love the series concept. There have been some great, memorable, award-winning beers that have come out of this series. I also like that we settled on a reasonable alcohol content. The 10-10-10 was on the extreme side, and from what I read, many of us (myself including) couldn't get a dry enough tasting beer because of the grain levels required for the OG.

I have 3 questions/thoughts:

1. To bug or not to bug - For those that aren't going with a brett beer, can this forum decide on a recommended non-brett option? My vote would be Wyeast 1187 Ringwood ale. That should highlight the malt and add some subtle complexity to match the desired affect. If agreed, we should put it on the recipe thread, since I believe having only a brett yeast listed may turn people off of this recipe - and we want EVERYONE to brew it, bugged or no.


2. Caramelization - I am not clear on what technique to employ for caramelization. I am not an expert on it, but I think there are 5 options:

- Caramel malts - sub caramel malts for a portion of the base malts to create caramel flavor. Be creative and mix the malts, adding portions of light (e.g. C20 or Honey Malt) to dark (e.g. C120 or Special B). My personal opinion is limit it to 1lb or less (especially with the darker malts).

- Prolonged boil - reverse engineer your brew to hit 1078 OG on a long and vigorous boil; 2 hrs min, 3 hrs max. This will promote kettle caramelization over that time.

- "Pseudo-decoction" - take 2-3 gallons of the wort (before you add Treacle), and boil in a separate pot with a goal of creating a syrup that you add back to the boil. Syrup can be thick to thin.

- ROCKS! - if you can, heat rocks separately on the grill well above boiling temp and plunge (carefully) into the boil for instant caramelization of the wort around the rocks.

- All of the above! - take any combination of the above to create a unique caramel profile for the beer. Note - combining too many can over caramelize the beer, losing the desired balance. Discretion would be a key if someone took this route, but the combo could be very interesting!:rockin:

3. Parti-gyle OR starter beer - Anyone put thought to either of these? I think it would be cool to provide the option of either a small beer or starter beer (for yeast growth). A ~3-4% Bitter, Mild, or Southern English Brown (hell yeah!) would be perfect, methinks... I haven't put that much thought into it, but I would jump on a good recipe.
 
KingBrian...

are you aware that the decent subset of the GRABASS folks are planning to do a big group brew of several batches and variations of the 11/11/11 in a few weeks?
 
I feel that I am now at the point in my brewing, and also my involvement with HBT, where I would like to participate. I have brewed an old ale before and I have recipe's rollin around my head right now, but since I am an anniv brew newb...I will hold my contributions back.
 
I don't really know what to say here. I went to HB club tonight so I am a bit druck, but barc won't stop asking me about this damn recipe so I guess I'm brewing it. I am going to attempt a partygyle since I have wanted to do one for some time but have never decided to do a big enough beer. Until now. Not sure whether to use the brett or not yet, but I'm brewing. These GRABASS guys are a bunch of A-holes, but we always seem to have an absolute ****ing blast. Even if I have to drive alllllll the way out to IdahoDal's place to brew. See you ****ers there. You too KingBrianI. I'll even give you a ride. I practically live in Durham. Again, I am druck. (disclaimer)
 
1. To bug or not to bug - For those that aren't going with a brett beer, can this forum decide on a recommended non-brett option? My vote would be Wyeast 1187 Ringwood ale. That should highlight the malt and add some subtle complexity to match the desired affect. If agreed, we should put it on the recipe thread, since I believe having only a brett yeast listed may turn people off of this recipe - and we want EVERYONE to brew it, bugged or no.


As long as it is an English strain, it'll be an old ale. You may wish to mash lower whichever strain you choose (the 158F mash was chosen with the brett in mind) or go with wlp007.

2. Caramelization - I am not clear on what technique to employ for caramelization. I am not an expert on it, but I think there are 5 option:

- "Pseudo-decoction" - take 2-3 gallons of the wort (before you add Treacle), and boil in a separate pot with a goal of creating a syrup that you add back to the boil. Syrup can be thick to thin.

This is what we all talked about doing with the first 2 gallons of the runnings. Boil it down to 1-2 quarts then add it to to the boil. You will need to runoff more then usual to make up for it or add some top off to reach your typical full boil volume.
 
These GRABASS guys are a bunch of A-holes, but we always seem to have an absolute ****ing blast. Even if I have to drive alllllll the way out to IdahoDal's place to brew. See you ****ers there. You too KingBrianI. I'll even give you a ride. I practically live in Durham. Again, I am druck. (disclaimer)

Hey, Ryan... did you just threaten to kidnap KingBrian?
 
KingBrian...

are you aware that the decent subset of the GRABASS folks are planning to do a big group brew of several batches and variations of the 11/11/11 in a few weeks?

Yep, it sounds like it will be a great time. I've posted on the GRABASS board a couple of times in the 11/11/11 threads. I'm planning on brewing this recipe this weekend but I'm planning to come out and watch/help out at the event. It even looks like I have a ride now!:D
 
I don't really know what to say here. I went to HB club tonight so I am a bit druck, but barc won't stop asking me about this damn recipe so I guess I'm brewing it.

You know you like it, don't lie...

These GRABASS guys are a bunch of A-holes, but we always seem to have an absolute ****ing blast. Even if I have to drive alllllll the way out to IdahoDal's place to brew. See you ****ers there.

Yes, we are complete A-holes. And yes WE always have a blast but you always wind up pissing your pants and crying in a corner in the fetal position. Its fun for the rest of us, though.

You too KingBrianI. I'll even give you a ride. I practically live in Durham.

Brian, sounds like you need to call the cops now and go ahead and give them fair warning. He'll show up at your door a week early, in a thong, a "My Little Pony" shirt, and a pair of Ughs. You'll know its him because of the most excellently repaired front bumper on his Subaru.
 
He'll show up at your door a week early, in a thong, a "My Little Pony" shirt, and a pair of Ughs. You'll know its him because of the most excellently repaired front bumper on his Subaru.

Yeah... that bumper tip should help Brian distinguish Ryan from all of the OTHER guys that show up at his door dressed that way.
 
Yeah... that bumper tip should help Brian distinguish Ryan from all of the OTHER guys that show up at his door dressed that way.

If its anything like a typical GRABASS event, that's about par for the course so you never know what tips to give someone. :drunk:
 
Whoo hoo, I am also ready for this! My LHBS just ordered the 9097-PC. Bear in mind that Brett alone doesn't make it bugged, Brett is after all another yeast, a "non-spore forming genus of yeast in the family Saccharomycetaceae" according to wikipedia. Anyone have any thoughts on how Lacto/Pedio might effect the outcome? I'm thinking of maybe adding Lacto to a version of this for a Flanders Brown 'ish version.
 
Wow, imagine my surprise when I was trolling along on HBT this morning and happened upon this thread. Now I understand barc's email a little better. Sorry for the drucken ramblings last night and sorry to Brian if I made it appear as though you needed to beef up security. And I let barc borrow that shirt so I don't even have it anymore.

I guess it wasn't a good idea to have 5 more beers once I got home from HB club and then start posting on HBT. Lesson learned. At least until next month's meeting.
 
Just put Wyeast 9097PC in my BMW shopping cart. This would be a great opportunity to compare results. I'm in!
 
I wish I had an AG setup so I could participate. Maybe next year :)

Or I might try and adapt a partial mash version? Who knows.
 
Whoo hoo, I am also ready for this! My LHBS just ordered the 9097-PC. Bear in mind that Brett alone doesn't make it bugged, Brett is after all another yeast, a "non-spore forming genus of yeast in the family Saccharomycetaceae" according to wikipedia. Anyone have any thoughts on how Lacto/Pedio might effect the outcome? I'm thinking of maybe adding Lacto to a version of this for a Flanders Brown 'ish version.

Pedio might not be recommended unless you're willing to let it age for at least another year, imo, unless you're kegging. Pedio will eat through quite a bit more than Brett / Sacc will alone. I'd say you'll get the gravity very close to 1.000 and you'll have a ton of non-Sacc fermentables in there for Pedio... But someone else with a little more experience can weigh in.

Lacto would give it an acidic twang that may or may not be welcomed. Ryan and I did a beer where I sour mashed a bit (as in 2 gallons I think) of the wort before boiling it. Lacto came through strong! I would imagine it to be a lot less active as I think it dies out in the presence of only a little alcohol...

skeeordye11 said:
And I let barc borrow that shirt so I don't even have it anymore.

I told you, I wanted to use it for a cape. I'm done with it now. I was going to ask you about the stains on the back of it, and the tear marks, but I guess that can wait.
 
This recipe would be pretty easy to convert to a partial mash, but since it's been so long since I've done partial mashes I'll let someone with more recent experience do it. But I imagine it would be along the lines of mashing the 0.75 lbs amber malt and the 0.75 lbs of brown malt with a couple of pounds of maris otter. Then you could use that wort for the kettle caramelization and make up the rest of the fermentables in the kettle with light DME.
 
I was planning on brewing a partigyle next anyways, but I'm not too keen on the bret. Anyone have a good third coast clone? LOVE that stuff.
 
If a PM recipe is developed I'll try this once my fermenting closet is done (temps swinging too wildly right now).
 
I've wanted to do one of these beers since I started reading about brewing and, now that I have enough experience and have many all grain beers under my belt, I think I'm going to try my hand at this one. It'll be really cool to exchange some beers with you guys.

I've also never made a bugged beer or even added oak to a beer, so this should be interesting!
 
Partial Mash Recipe (or at least something to get you close):
11/11/11 (PM)
Old Ale


Type: All Grain
Date: 9/21/2010
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Brewer: TRASK
Boil Size: 7.00 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (15 Gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 48.00 %
0.50 lb Treacle (100.0 SRM) Extract 4.00 %
4.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 36.00 %
0.75 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
0.75 lb Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
2.00 oz Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 51.3 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.11 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 51.3 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 15.2 SRM Color: Color
 
This sounds like a ton of fun and a great recipe. I have never brewed an Old ale and I have never caramalized anything. Can someone make sure that I have the caramlization thing correct? I am going to mash 60 min at 158F, collect 2 gal of the first runnings and boil down to 1-2 qts. Complete the first runnings, sparge and add the boiled down runnings to the first and final runnings and bring all wort to a boil as normal. Does that sound about right?
 
Whats with the wild swing between est and measured gravity/alcohol on that pm recipe? Is that normal? .65% doesn't sound like a beer I'd want to brew lol. Or does that have something to do with the brett?
 
I got 1.078 with these fermentables at 77% efficiency for a partial mash. You could just caramelize the partial mash and then add the caramelized wort to the extract boil. If this looks good I can put it in the recipe thread.


Fermentables for Partial Mash
UK Pale Ale Malt 2lb 0oz (16.7 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Amber Malt 12.00 oz (6.3 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Brown Malt 12.00 oz (6.3 %) In Mash/Steeped
Extract - Light Dried Malt Extract 8lb 8oz (70.8 %) Start Of Boil
Sugar - Treacle 8.00 oz (3.0 %) Start Of Boil
 
Partial Mash Recipe (or at least something to get you close):
11/11/11 (PM)
Old Ale


Type: All Grain
Date: 9/21/2010
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Brewer: TRASK
Boil Size: 7.00 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (15 Gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 48.00 %
0.50 lb Treacle (100.0 SRM) Extract 4.00 %
4.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 36.00 %
0.75 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
0.75 lb Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
2.00 oz Target [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 51.3 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.11 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 51.3 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 15.2 SRM Color: Color

Thanks! I added a link to this post in the original post.

This sounds like a ton of fun and a great recipe. I have never brewed an Old ale and I have never caramalized anything. Can someone make sure that I have the caramlization thing correct? I am going to mash 60 min at 158F, collect 2 gal of the first runnings and boil down to 1-2 qts. Complete the first runnings, sparge and add the boiled down runnings to the first and final runnings and bring all wort to a boil as normal. Does that sound about right?

You got it! It's probably best to run off the rest of the 1st runnings and your second runnings into another kettle if you can so it's not mashing for however long you take to boil down the 2 gallons of first runnings. It's probably a good idea to bring the rest of the first runnings and the second runnings up above 170 F once they are run off to denature the enzymes so it doesn't continue to break down the sugars. If you have 2 burners and will be boiling down the first runnings at the same time as you are bringing the rest of the runnings to a boil, don't worry about that.
 
This sounds like a ton of fun and a great recipe. I have never brewed an Old ale and I have never caramalized anything. Can someone make sure that I have the caramlization thing correct? I am going to mash 60 min at 158F, collect 2 gal of the first runnings and boil down to 1-2 qts. Complete the first runnings, sparge and add the boiled down runnings to the first and final runnings and bring all wort to a boil as normal. Does that sound about right?

Right, but you'll need to runoff more than usual to make up for the caramelization or add top off if your final running's gravity get to low.
 
Right, but you'll need to runoff more than usual to make up for the caramelization or add top off if your final running's gravity get to low.

You mean to make up for what I boil off? So if I would normally collect 4 gal, I would need to collect an additional 1.5 gal?
 
One of the things I've liked about talking about this recipe is that the recipe posted seems to be more a guide than anything. Some people are usuing 2-row or pils malt. Some people are only boiling 1 gal of first runnings down to 1-2 qts. People are kinda doing their own thing to the recipe based on what equipment, ingredients, etc. they have on hand. Don't get hung up on the minor details, just brew the damn beer and have fun! (I've been drucking again by the way)
 
I know you can't tell much from a starter, but the smells that 9097 is making are amazing. I'm really looking forward to the beer it will produce. There is already the hint of some pie cherries in there.
 
It seems my local stores are out of Target hops. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions on substitutes?
 
It seems my local stores are out of Target hops. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions on substitutes?

Any neutral high alpha hop will work. Heck, even low-alpha british hops would be fine. Fuggles, Willamette, EKG if you don't mind wasting their aroma. I'm going to actually be using Magnum since it's clean and high alpha. The hops shouldn't come through at all in this recipe.
 
Hmmm...I wasn't planning on doing the 11-11-11, but its been a good while since Ive brewed, and this looks right up my alley. I love the amount of creativity on this one. I've already got some ideas churning.
 
Any neutral high alpha hop will work. Heck, even low-alpha british hops would be fine. Fuggles, Willamette, EKG if you don't mind wasting their aroma . . .
That was my thought also. With the extended aging all that will be left of the hop character will be the bittering. I have some 9.5% AA First Gold that I'll be using.
 
I was going to go with something like Magnum, glad to see others are doing that as well. I have a bunch of EKG, but I don't want to dump that many hops just to bitter. Thanks, KingBrianI!
 
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