1st Saison recipe - thoughts?

Recipe Specifications
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Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.12 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 4.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 22.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 72.00 %
1.50 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 12.00 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.00 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 17.3 IBU
0.33 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
0.33 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.1 IBU
0.33 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (3 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
1.00 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 8.00 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Saison (Wyeast Labs #3724) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: 149* Mash
Total Grain Weight: 11.50 lb
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149* Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step Add 14.38 qt of water at 160.2 F 149.0 F

What's just as important as the recipe and mash is how you treat your Saison after pitching. Are you prepared to ramp up the temperature to 85 or so and hold it there for a while?


Edit:
I talk (type) from limited experience. My first Saison has been in the primary for over four weeks. Heating pad is keeping it between 86 and 88 degrees. Don't see any need to check SG as long as the airlock keeps chugging along at a steady pace. Really looking forward to the day I can get a taste of this.

AnOldUR said:

What's just as important as the recipe and mash is how you treat your Saison after pitching. Are you prepared to ramp up the temperature to 85 or so and hold it there for a while?

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yup.

gonna start down in my basement for the first day which should hold it at around 65. then gonna move it upstairs into one of my rooms for 2 days or which should bring it up to about 70. after that, i'll be placing it on one of the floor heater vents and that should hold it at a good 85 rest of the time.

That looks great. My Saison is pretty similar, with a tad of Munich, grains of paradise, and with Saaz instead of EKGs.

I like to bottle mine in 1 liter flip tops, I think it adds to the whole farmhouse thing.

Looks like a solid recipe. You may want to mash a little lower to get it to dry out as much as possible. I mashed mine at 147 and it stopped right at 1.010. I would have liked a few points lower, but it tastes fantastic (just carbonated it last night) so I'm not too worried. Next time I'll shoot for 146 or 145.

I know it's been thrown around on this forum a lot, but I'll rehash it. The Jamil Show podcast on Saisons is really informative. They talk about the mash temps, different yeasts, and fermentation temp control.

riored4v said:

yup.

gonna start down in my basement for the first day which should hold it at around 65. then gonna move it upstairs into one of my rooms for 2 days or which should bring it up to about 70. after that, i'll be placing it on one of the floor heater vents and that should hold it at a good 85 rest of the time.

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You might want to skip that 70 degree step. Saisons rely on a lot of ester production and most of that would occur very early in the ferment. By 72 hours most esters that could be produced have been (or not if the temp was too cool.)

Personally, I started my Saison at 72 and ramped to 82 by 24 hours and 88 by 48 hours. Even then I was expecting more esters and would go even more extreme with my next one.

dontman said:

You might want to skip that 70 degree step. Saisons rely on a lot of ester production and most of that would occur very early in the ferment. By 72 hours most esters that could be produced have been (or not if the temp was too cool.)

Personally, I started my Saison at 72 and ramped to 82 by 24 hours and 88 by 48 hours. Even then I was expecting more esters and would go even more extreme with my next one.

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In all honesty i was thinking of starting at around 80, since it seemed people have done that with success. i was just worried about pitching the yeast at that warm of a temperature.

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

Looks like a solid recipe. You may want to mash a little lower to get it to dry out as much as possible. I mashed mine at 147 and it stopped right at 1.010. I would have liked a few points lower, but it tastes fantastic (just carbonated it last night) so I'm not too worried. Next time I'll shoot for 146 or 145.

I know it's been thrown around on this forum a lot, but I'll rehash it. The Jamil Show podcast on Saisons is really informative. They talk about the mash temps, different yeasts, and fermentation temp control.

Click to expand...

i keep wanting to listen to it but i just havent got the chance to do so.

did you use any corn sugar in your recipe by chance?

riored4v said:

i keep wanting to listen to it but i just havent got the chance to do so.

did you use any corn sugar in your recipe by chance?

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I used a pound of cane sugar in my recipe. I pretty much brewed the Saison recipe out of Brewing Classic Styles except I used Mt Hood hops instead.

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

I used a pound of cane sugar in my recipe. I pretty much brewed the Saison recipe out of Brewing Classic Styles except I used Mt Hood hops instead.

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ah ok. just curious because of the FG. What was your OG, or atleast planned OG? I dont have that book.

maybe i'll lower the mash temp down to 147.

riored4v said:

In all honesty i was thinking of starting at around 80, since it seemed people have done that with success. i was just worried about pitching the yeast at that warm of a temperature.

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True Saison yeast is cultivated to handle it - it takes a lot of heat to generate the esters and even more to generate any fusels. I like my Saison but I do wish I had gone a little warmer, like you said, starting at 80 and going to ninety within the first 24 hours.

dontman said:

True Saison yeast is cultivated to handle it - it takes a lot of heat to generate the esters and even more to generate any fusels. I like my Saison but I do wish I had gone a little warmer, like you said, starting at 80 and going to ninety within the first 24 hours.

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I think I'll go that route then because i'm pretty sure I can hold those temps.

so I guess the changes to original recipe were a 147 mash, and cool down to 80, pitch yeast and let er rip

Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it comes out.

BTW, my OG was 1059. I'll be "sampling" some more tonight.

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it comes out.

BTW, my OG was 1059. I'll be "sampling" some more tonight.

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will do.

thanks for the info on the OG, sounds like mine is very similar like you were saying. I might even go for a 146-147 mash.

thanks again for the info/help.

This recipe looks good to me. I've only brewed one Saison though, so take that for what it's worth. My OG was 1.060 and I think it's finally finished at 1.006. I used a similar recipe but I included 2 lbs wheat and 2 lbs rye in mine, in addition to the Pilsner Malt and candi sugar.

This yeast (WY 3724) is very crazy. Once mine got down to 1.035, it didn't do anything for 2-3 weeks. Then, all of the sudden it started back up again, and kept going on forever. I brewed this on 1/29/09.

I took a hydo reading yesterday and the sample was flat-out awesome. Good luck with yours!

LakeErieBrew said:

This yeast (WY 3724) is very crazy. Once mine got down to 1.035, it didn't do anything for 2-3 weeks. Then, all of the sudden it started back up again, and kept going on forever. I brewed this on 1/29/09.

I took a hydo reading yesterday and the sample was flat-out awesome. Good luck with yours!

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Was this in a primary for that whole time?

AnOldUR said:

Was this in a primary for that whole time?

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No I racked it to a secondary after the initial burst of fermentation activity was finished. When I racked it, that's when I took a gravity reading and it was at 1.035. I don't remember how long it was in the primary, but I'm thinking it would have finished quicker had I just left it in there.

Oh well, live and learn. It turned out really nice anyway.

Same thing happened to me--I left it in primary the whole time. Beer is fantastic.

bloodorange said:

Same thing happened to me--I left it in primary the whole time. Beer is fantastic.

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How long was it that you had it on the primary?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to get a handle on how long this will take and how long on the primary is safe with this yeast. Mine has been in the primary since March 22nd and has had steady airlock activity the whole time.

good question about the primary. didnt even think about that.

thanks

AnOldUR said:

How long was it that you had it on the primary?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to get a handle on how long this will take and how long on the primary is safe with this yeast. Mine has been in the primary since March 22nd and has had steady airlock activity the whole time.

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keep in mind that airlock activity is no measure of whether fermentation is being produced. Air temperature, air pressure, changes in both of the above all can produce bubbling.

I'd say you're still safe, but if you've held the temps into 80s for an extended period - since March 22 - I'd check with your hydrometer and think about racking off the yeast in the next 3 weeks or so.

quick question about the temp while its fermenting.

so right now its at about 78*, later tonight i'll hit the 24hr mark and i want to start ramping up the temp. i noticed my stick-on thermometer only reads up to 82 or 84*.

how should i go about monitoring temp to make sure it's around 85-90*??

i havent been able to find a stick on thermometer that goes that high either.

any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have a quick read dial thermometer that is pretty accurate. I taped it to the outside of my better bottled during fermentation for my saison. It worked pretty well.

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

I have a quick read dial thermometer that is pretty accurate. I taped it to the outside of my better bottled during fermentation for my saison. It worked pretty well.

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just one like this: Thermometer - 2" x 12" High Quality | MoreBeer

??

thats the one i have right now and i have it jammed between the blowoff tube and the neck of the carboy. its touching the wort, but not enough to get me a real good reading. right now i'm showing 82 from the stick-on thermometer and about 75 for the dial one.

if thats the same style you used, how did you manage to get a good reading my taping it to the side? fwiw, i'm using a glass carboy. i would just think it would be such a small amount of the thermomter touching that it may not read very accurately.

That's similar to what I'm using. I think I got mine in a grocery store but it's surprisingly accurate. It reads very close to my calibrated digital thermometer.

I fermented in a Better Bottle and taped the thermometer to the side in such a way that the tip and as much of the side of the probe were in contact with the fermenter. If I get a chance tonight, I'll snap a picture of my setup. I currently have the thermometer attached to a Better Bottle that is fermenting a Rye Pale Ale.

I honestly can't say how accurate it is because I never took a temp reading of the fermenting wort. If you have your thermometer in the wort itself, that should be more accurate than taking a reading outside of the fermenter.

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

That's similar to what I'm using. I think I got mine in a grocery store but it's surprisingly accurate. It reads very close to my calibrated digital thermometer.

I fermented in a Better Bottle and taped the thermometer to the side in such a way that the tip and as much of the side of the probe were in contact with the fermenter. If I get a chance tonight, I'll snap a picture of my setup. I currently have the thermometer attached to a Better Bottle that is fermenting a Rye Pale Ale.

I honestly can't say how accurate it is because I never took a temp reading of the fermenting wort. If you have your thermometer in the wort itself, that should be more accurate than taking a reading outside of the fermenter.

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maybe i'm just being overly paranoid.. i dunno.

i moved it to the outside how you mentioned and it seems to be more inline temp wise and my fermstrip. as i mentioned, my dial thermo was reading about 6-7 degrees lower than my fermometer and that made me think i wasnt getting a good reading and was maybe only getting the temp of the krausen.

right now i've got it stuck to the side and covered in paper so the temp surrounds the probe of thermometer and i'm holding at about 87. krausen has dropped to a thin layer and i'm getting some slight bubbling still. hopefully these are good signs since i'm not to familiar with how this yeast works.

riored4v said:

. . . i'm holding at about 87. krausen has dropped to a thin layer and i'm getting some slight bubbling still. hopefully these are good signs since i'm not to familiar with how this yeast works.

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It's been over a week. I'm interested in what progress you're making. I came close to taking a sample and moving mine to a secondary yesterday. Had to slap myself with a "Step Away From the Carboy." It is still giving me a steady bubble every 5 seconds. Even after hearing the "bubbles don't indicate fermentation" line parroted over and over, I see no reason to disturb it. Without a change in temperature there's only so much out-gassing that can account for airlock activity. It's a challenge to resist messing with it (especially since I don't know if I'm doing the right thing), but I'll hold out a little longer.

So how about you? How is your Saison progressing?

AnOldUR said:

It's been over a week. I'm interested in what progress you're making. I came close to taking a sample and moving mine to a secondary yesterday. Had to slap myself with a "Step Away From the Carboy." It is still giving me a steady bubble every 5 seconds. Even after hearing the "bubbles don't indicate fermentation" line parroted over and over, I see no reason to disturb it. Without a change in temperature there's only so much out-gassing that can account for airlock activity. It's a challenge to resist messing with it (especially since I don't know if I'm doing the right thing), but I'll hold out a little longer.

So how about you? How is your Saison progressing?

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I'm going insane with having to wait that I've decided to brew 2 more batches this weekend. With the Saison and Wee Heavy, all I can do is wait..lol

That being said, I really dont know how the Saison is progressing. I've kept it held at 87* according to my dial thermomter. No krausen and a few bubbles will pop up out of the wort. Airlock/blowoff gets a nice bubble every 5-10 seconds. I'm very very tempted to pull a gravity reading, but I will probably wait until Saturday since that will be my 2 week mark.

Like you said, its definitely tough to not play with it, since this is my first one and i have no idea what to really expect out of it, or the yeast. But i'm keeping the heat, and walking away for now..lol

Pulled my first sample yesterday. So far it tastes amazing.

Gravity is down to 1.016 so i'm thinking by this weekend it might be down. I gave the carboy a gentle shake to keep everyone inside happy. I'm definitely looking forward to the final product.