Need Vienna Lager input.

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Bobby_M

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I've recently bartered for a full sack of Vienna malt (Hugh and Baird). I'm thinking about doing a Vienna lager on the upcoming teach and friend to brew day and started looking for recipes. I've seen some that use about 1/3rd Vienna, 1/3rd Munich, 1/3rd Pils or MO. Then I see people that claim to love 100% Vienna bills..

I figured I'd start with 100% and see where I get.

Beertoolspro has this info on Bairds Vienna:

Vienna Malt

Origin: United Kingdom

Supplier: Bairds Malt

"Vienna Malt is used for making dark lager beer of the Vienna or Märzen style, dark in colour with a reddish tinge. Vienna malt usually only forms around 10 -15% of the grist with normal Lager malt and perhaps Caramalt.

The malt is a well modified Lager malt, resulting from full steeping and germination. The colour is achieved by kilning at higher temperatures than usual for Lager malts. Because it only forms a part of the grist, diastatic activity is less important.

Mash: Yes

DBFG: 7.9%
FG-CG: 2.0%
DBCG: 7.74%
HWE: 30
Moisture: 4.5%
AICG: 7.39%
Potential: 0.88 Plato

Color: 3.5 °L

Protein: 11.0%
TN: 1.76%
TSN: 0.757%
SNR: 43.0%

DP: 50.0 Lintner"



BUT!!!
Look at the incredibly low OG I'm getting:

[size=+2][/size]
[size=+1]3-A Vienna Lager[/size]

10.jpg


Size: 11.55 gal
Efficiency: 82%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 36.8 per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.011 (1.046 - 1.052)
|================================|
Terminal Gravity: 1.003 (1.010 - 1.014)
|================================|
Color: 11.0 (10.0 - 16.0)
|==========#=====================|
Alcohol: 1.12% (4.5% - 5.7%)
|================================|
Bitterness: 24.83 (18.0 - 30.0)
|=================#==============|

[size=+1]Ingredients:[/size]
25 lbs Vienna Malt
2 lbs Munich TYPE II
0.25 lbs 2-Row Caramel Malt 80L
3 oz Hallertau (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 45 min
 
My next beer is a Vienna lager also:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 60.00 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 20.00 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 10.00 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 10.00 %

What do you think of this? I seem heavier on Munich and Crystal than you.
 
I figured out BTP had the potential gravity in plato and listed it as .88 plato instead of the more likely 8.8 like all the other Viennas. I fixed it and now have:

[size=+2]Vienna Lager[/size]
[size=+1]3-A Vienna Lager[/size]

11.jpg


Size: 11.55 gal
Efficiency: 82%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 165.93 per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.050 (1.046 - 1.052)
|==================#=============|
Terminal Gravity: 1.012 (1.010 - 1.014)
|=================#==============|
Color: 11.3 (10.0 - 16.0)
|===========#====================|
Alcohol: 4.9% (4.5% - 5.7%)
|=============#==================|
Bitterness: 24.83 (18.0 - 30.0)
|=================#==============|

[size=+1]Ingredients:[/size]
15 lbs Vienna Malt
3 lbs Maris Otter Pale
2 lbs Munich Malt
.5 lbs 2-Row Caramel Malt 80L
3 oz Hallertau (4.5%) - added during boil, boiled 45 min

The BJCP says: No roasted or caramel flavor. I'm only using a bit of 80 for the color. I really want the Vienna to come through and most Durst even says about their Vienna, " Recommended Quantities: Up to 100% of total grain bill. ". I'm relatively confident there's enough diastatic power in the Vienna to convert itself and maybe a bit more, but I've added the 3lbs of MO to add a little boost.
 
I pulled back the Munich a bit, also using crystal (in this case 40) for color. I wonder how much 1 pound brings to the mix in any case...

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 80.00 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 10.00 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 10.00 %

I'm using a mix of Hersbrucker and Sterling targeting 26 IBU, revising to have none less than 30 minutes in the boil.

What yeast are you using? I'm using Saflager S-23 (for the first time).
 
Bobby-

Your second malt bill looks sexy! I would go with that. An all vienna mailt bill is WWAAYYY to much. You would be on your way to a bock with that thing.
 
Yeah, I'm settled on my second recipe right there. I am going to use S-23 this time around. I don't have any HBS orders in the works so I have to use what I have on hand. I plan to mash at 149F to keep it easy drinking.
 
I really like Vienna malt, I bet this is a great beer. I might be temped to have a tiny little spicy hop addition at flameout, just for a little bit of aroma (thinking something like a half-ounce of Saaz), but that's just me.
 
I'm planning on doing a vienna lager soon and stumbled across this thread. Bobby, did you brew this one? If so, how did it turn out? Anything you'd do differently?

Thanks,
Chad
 
Chad said:
I'm planning on doing a vienna lager soon and stumbled across this thread. Bobby, did you brew this one? If so, how did it turn out? Anything you'd do differently?

Thanks,
Chad

The sample I had was really good. That was about 2 weeks ago while it was still not carbed/cleared...
 
Bobby, I wonder how's the clarity of your Viena turned out, although it could be too early to tell. I remember I brewed Viena lager with 100% grain bill of Viena malt. I had pretty good efficiency but beer took forever to condition and clalarify. In the end it was grate, but 4-5 month to that point.
Interestingly I just went through George Fix book on Octoberfest style of beer. It was written in 1991 and at that time he said that quality of viena and munich malt is very bad compare to regular pilsner malt. Bad in terms of malt protein and SNR. Unfortunately he did not give any numbers, but I wonder if we have same situation till this day and that's why my beer was so cloudy and took forever to condition. Instead he advices to use mostly pilsner malt (like 8lbs for 5g batch) and add small amounts of light/dark and crystal (120L) malt (in the range of 6-7 oz of each) to get to 8-12 SRM. I guess that at such a low percentile of cara-malts won't give any caramely flavors.
Any way, let us know how did it go.
 
So I pulled a bit off the keg for the first time. It's been lagering in the keg since 11/25 and it's still a little hazy and tastes green. It's really hard to say if the recipe is sound or not at this point. I just put it on the gas so that my future tastings will be closer to the finished product so I'll keep you updated on it.
 
Bobby_M said:
So I pulled a bit off the keg for the first time. It's been lagering in the keg since 11/25 and it's still a little hazy and tastes green. It's really hard to say if the recipe is sound or not at this point. I just put it on the gas so that my future tastings will be closer to the finished product so I'll keep you updated on it.

Thanks, Bobby. I'm eager to hear how it progresses. I've got my next couple of ales planned out then will venture into lagers with a vienna. I thought it would be perfect for December/January, and it would have been . . . last week. Today hit nearly 80º here and the temps will be in the mid-70s all week. Oy. So much for lagering in the garage. Luckily I have a spare fridge.

Take care,
Chad
 
AdIn said:
I had pretty good efficiency but beer took forever to condition and clalarify. In the end it was grate, but 4-5 month to that point.

What was you mash shedule? This may have been the result of a missing protein rest.

Rev Jc said:
An all vienna mailt bill is WWAAYYY to much. You would be on your way to a bock with that thing.

That's whay I would do. 100% Vienna would be the way to go for my version of a vienna lager. There is enough diastatic power in vienna. And I don't think that it will be bock like as long as you make sure it attenuates fairly close to the limit of attenuation. I don't keep Vienna in stock, so for my version I'll probably go with 50% Pilsner and 50 % light munich.

Just my 2c
 
Kaiser said:
What was you mash shedule? This may have been the result of a missing protein rest.

I did protein rest @130F for 15 min, then decoction to 154. I just looked at my records, I had 11lb of Viena and 1lb caramunich.
 
AdIn said:
I did protein rest @130F for 15 min, then decoction to 154. I just looked at my records, I had 11lb of Viena and 1lb caramunich.

That's odd. Did you check for conversion? w/o seeing some malt parameters I can only think of starch haze, but you must have been way off to keep a mash of Vienna from converting. Even the single decoction could not have done enough harm to the enzymes.

Here are some parameters from Durst's Vienna : http://www.durstmalz.com/viennamalt.html

In terms of protein and SNR, it's very similar to the Munich and the Pilsner they make. Weyermann Vienna malt is similar.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
That's odd. Did you check for conversion? w/o seeing some malt parameters I can only think of starch haze, but you must have been way off to keep a mash of Vienna from converting. Even the single decoction could not have done enough harm to the enzymes.

Here are some parameters from Durst's Vienna : http://www.durstmalz.com/viennamalt.html

In terms of protein and SNR, it's very similar to the Munich and the Pilsner they make. Weyermann Vienna malt is similar.

Kai
I use Weyermann and it does list a bit higher then Durst's protein %: http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/malt/weyermann.php

Agree, it was strange. That's why Bobby's experience is of a great interest for me. But I think next time I brew Viena style - I'll try this approach to use mostly base malt and get needed color by using cara-malts. I wonder if anybody tried it?
 
Well, it's been lagering for 3 weeks. I keep topping up the gas to progressively carb it while I wait (which fortunately or not, it allows me to pull bubbly samples. It's clearing up nicely (probably brilliant in another 2 weeks) and the taste is great. The malt aroma is strong but pleasant. Vienna rules.
 
Bobby_M said:
The malt aroma is strong but pleasant. Vienna rules.

I just recently made an all Vienna California Lager beer. Not quite the same, but similar. It is the first time I had used Vienna in any kind of quantity. I am surprised at how malty this beer came out. The color is beautiful amber red and the malt profile is great. It almost has a roastiness to it. If I were to re-do it, I don't think I would go 100% but the maltiness/mild roastiness of Vienna is very very tasty IMO.
 
Found this on the webs, which is supposed to be a Jamil Recipe and more in the Negra Modelo style:

Vienna Lager
A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
09-B German Amber Lager, Vienna Lager
Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 18 Max IBU: 30
Min Clr: 8 Max Clr: 12 Color in SRM, Lovibond
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 6.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 12.00
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.81
Anticipated SRM: 11.8
Anticipated IBU: 23.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Evaporation Rate: 12.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.32 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.042 SG 10.59 Plato

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
33.3 4.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
25.0 3.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
33.3 4.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
8.3 1.00 lbs. CaraMunich Malt Belgium 1.033 75
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.90 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 6.00 22.0 60 min.
0.30 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 6.00 1.5 10 min.

Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP838 Southern German Lager
 
Now that sounds more my speed, even if the pils was MO. I'm not saying the mostly Vienna bill was bad but it takes half a pint for me to get used to how sharp the malt flavor is. Maybe sharp is a bad word. In any case, I think scaling it back to 30-40% of the bill would be good.
 
Bump.. If you can believe it, I just had a pint of this Vienna Lager that was brewed all the way back in Nov 07 on Teach a Friend day. I had kind of neglected it for the last few months because I had plenty of other beers on tap that I liked more. It finally hit the sweet spot though. I don't know if I screwed it up or what but it just didn't taste right. I chalked it up to just too much Vienna by %. It really tastes amazing and smooth now after 8 months of lagering. No, I know you don't have the patience for this but if you have 20 kegs, give it a shot.
 

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