How would you SMaSH?

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honkey

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I just posted this on the beeradvocate forum, but I was curious to see if there are going to be different schools of thoughts between the two forums. There is no right answer to this question, I just want to see what you guys would do, before I decide how I am going to do my experiment...

I am a huge fan of SMaSH pale ales. I have never done two side by side, but I was thinking about doing two separate SMaSH's together. My idea right now is to order 20 lbs of Briess 2-Row, collect 15 gallons, and split them into 2 separate worts and make one with Centennial and one with Amarillo. Now is when it gets tricky. I want them to have the same amount of bitterness.

If this was your experiment, would you target the exact same IBU's and change the amount of late addition hops or would you just calculate the bitterness from the 60 minute addition and just say that the bitterness from the late addition hops are just part of the flavor of that hop?

Also, once this is kegged, if I blend the beers in the glass, would this be an accurate taste of what it would taste like if I just did a Centennial/Amarillo blend in the boil? A professional brewer once told me that he used to do that with multiple single hop IPA's and he would blend them to find the perfect combination. Is it really that simple?

There is not a correct answer to this question, but I want to see what you guys think the pros and cons are of the different thoughts.
 
You can easily make them the same bitterness at the same time in the boil by adjusting the amounts of each you add at the same time in the boil to be equal in IBU's.
 
To the last question it would NOT be the same as if they were boiled togather, or blended togather and aged, but it would be similar-esque. There are processes that go on in boiling and yet different ones in aging that connot be duplicated by mixing beer out of the tap.
 
Late additions should be the same so you get equal flavor & aroma contributions. Then adjust the bittering addition so the total IBUs are the same, so you get the same bitterness to the beer.
 
Late additions should be the same so you get equal flavor & aroma contributions. Then adjust the bittering addition so the total IBUs are the same, so you get the same bitterness to the beer.

All of your additions should be at equal times and should be adjusted to provide the same percentage of your overall IBU's
 
All of your additions should be at equal times and should be adjusted to provide the same percentage of your overall IBU's

This is something I have thought of...
Pretend if there were International Flavor Units, similar to IBU's. Is it possible that one hop with 20% AA could contribute 100 IBU's and 30 theoretical IFU's and a hop that contains 10% AA could contribute 50 IBU's and still give 30 IFU's using the same amount of hops? So some hops with lower alpha acid could give a strong flavor while higher alpha acid hops do not provide as strong of a flavor... Just a thought that has crossed my mind. I know that Amarillo for me gives a very distinct flavor, whereas Perle with the same amount of alpha acids does not give as strong of a flavor for me... Just a thought.
 
Check this out.Hop utilization chart

The flavor contribution of each different hop varies by the hop. This chart will give you an idea of how to maximize what you are looking to gain from each hop.

Thanks, I've actually seen that before... I guess a better way to describe what I said is say I have a lower alpha acid hop and I boil it for 20 minutes and I get incredible flavor. Is it possible that the amount of flavor I get from that hop addition would be greater than the flavor of a higher alpha acid hop boiled for 20 minutes?
 
If you want to compare two different hops in the same recipe, you will leave to keep the IBU's profile of each addition the same and the time of each addition the same or you will be comparing apples to oranges.
 
Thanks, I've actually seen that before... I guess a better way to describe what I said is say I have a lower alpha acid hop and I boil it for 20 minutes and I get incredible flavor. Is it possible that the amount of flavor I get from that hop addition would be greater than the flavor of a higher alpha acid hop boiled for 20 minutes?

Possibly, but that all depends on the hop.
 
Thanks for the input Shinglejohn. It will be interesting to hear if anyone else chimes in.

p.s- Your avatar looks like you really want to chop someone's head off.
 
I have a standard pale ale recipe (not a smash) that I use when I have a new hop to experiment with. My goal is to keep the late additions the same by weight, and then adjust the bittering additions to hit the same IBU every time I make this beer.

BUT, one of the reasons I do this experiment is to judge how a hop performs as a bittering, flavor, aroma, and dry hop. Some hops have great performance when used as flavoring but suck everywhere else, for example.

I just did this experiment with Citra - amazing aroma and dry hop but its flavor was pretty weak. So I learned to either 1) not use Citra as a flavor hop or 2) use at least twice as much as normal to get a similar level of hoppiness.

I like Centennial as a flavor hop more than anything, and Amarillo as practically anything. It will be fun to compare the two.
 
i think id want to know if there were legal issues concerning the hobby on my area. seems relevent to me.

+1, it's pretty damn relevant if you could go to jail for it.


In the United State, individual states remain free to restrict, or even prohibit, the manufacture of beer, mead, hard cider, wine and other alcoholic beverages at home.[16] For example, Ala. Code § 28-1-1 addresses the illegal manufacture of alcoholic beverages in Alabama, and no other provision of Alabama law provides an exception for personal use brewing.


Ala. Code § 28-1-1 - "In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law."
 
I just read the same thing re: Alabama. Same in Utah and Kentucky. I agree - it's not off topic.
 
I don't think either method is really perfect. Flavor and aroma are not directly related to IBU. But bitterness from late hops probably has a different character than bitterness from hops boiled for a long time.

I would use the same amounts and timings of late hops and dry hops and adjust my 60 minute addition to make the same amount of IBU between the two.
 
I think the OP knows what he's getting into when he homebrews. I don't consider it my business to tell him what he can and can't do when it comes to something as harmless as homebrewing.

I mean, should we just ban all people from Alabama from using this site? Give the guy a freakin break and answer the question.
 
I would use the same amounts and timings of late hops and dry hops and adjust my 60 minute addition to make the same amount of IBU between the two.

I definitely think this is the way to go so you can get familiar with a type of hop. Even if one hop is a terrible flavor hop, for example, at least you'll know what Xoz of that hop tastes like and how it works.
 
There are thousands of homebrewers in Alabama. Seemingly, one person has been arrested in many years. Living here 17 years and being a homebrewer the entire time, this is the only case I've heard of. There are certainly a couple other cases where folks have been warned by ABC board folks, but even those didn't result in arrests. Just don't be overly public in the newspapers, etc . . . While it is illegal & we really need to change state law, your chances of getting arrested for homebrewing still very, very small.
 
I don't think anyone is saying to ban anyone from the site. I think it was just concern for someone posting stuff on the site. But it sounds like it is probably overkill. Oh well.

Regarding hops... If I were to do this I'd definitely calculate the IBU's for each addition and match the IBU's for each variety at each addition. IMHO, that sounds like the best way to compare.
 
Regarding hops... If I were to do this I'd definitely calculate the IBU's for each addition and match the IBU's for each variety at each addition. IMHO, that sounds like the best way to compare.

I don't know if I think this is a good way to do it. There'd be an enormous difference between 1oz of highish alpha centennial at 10min versus, like 10oz of saaz at 10mins? It wouldn't even be close to comparing.

On the other hand, I feel like I've read that there actually is a correlation between higher alpha and higher oil content but still I think my above example illustrates how this comparison wouldn't work that well.
 
Good point.

I guess it points to the difficulty comparing hops with different alpha acid strengths. Because without considering the IBU contributions you'll get 2 beers with very different bitterness levels as well as different flavors.

Maybe try both?
 
You wont get different bitterness levels if you just keep the IBU contributions the same.

Say you add 1oz 10 AAnCentennial @ 60 min to a 1.050 wort, The IBU contribution is 36. The 5.5 AA Cascade equivelent would 1.8 oz, contributing 36 IBU.

This way they are both contributing the same amount of alpha acid at the same point to the brew. If you follow this throughout the brew, you will have exactly the same bitterness but will be able to compare flavors.
 
+1, it's pretty damn relevant if you could go to jail for it.


In the United State, individual states remain free to restrict, or even prohibit, the manufacture of beer, mead, hard cider, wine and other alcoholic beverages at home.[16] For example, Ala. Code § 28-1-1 addresses the illegal manufacture of alcoholic beverages in Alabama, and no other provision of Alabama law provides an exception for personal use brewing.


Ala. Code § 28-1-1 - "In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law."

My point is this thread started with a question about flavor hops and veered towards homebrewing laws in AL. Yes it is relevant to our craft but not in this thread. It belongs in its own thread. Sorry, I'll go check out Electric Brewing...... Jeesh!
 
I think the OP knows what he's getting into when he homebrews. I don't consider it my business to tell him what he can and can't do when it comes to something as harmless as homebrewing.

I mean, should we just ban all people from Alabama from using this site? Give the guy a freakin break and answer the question.

My thoughts exactly, Alabama must be pretty backwards, feel sorry for you guys.
 
But to answer your question, I would agree with shinglejohn in that additions and times etc must be the same in relation to total ibu's. i love making smash ales and my favorite was vienna/simcoe, also munich/northern brewer was great.

id say F the haters and go for it even for the sake of comparison, you will still have 10 gals of great pale ale. maybe try all vienna its freakin awesome.
 
But to answer your question, I would agree with shinglejohn in that additions and times etc must be the same in relation to total ibu's. i love making smash ales and my favorite was vienna/simcoe, also munich/northern brewer was great.

id say F the haters and go for it even for the sake of comparison, you will still have 10 gals of great pale ale. maybe try all vienna its freakin awesome.
+1, drinking an all vienna lager right now! Vienna rocks:rockin:
 
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