electric brewing question

I've been in the planning stages of my build for almost a year now...new house last year, wife got pregnant with twins (already have a 2.5 year old), etc. has kept me from pulling the trigger but I had it all planned out. Just received my order from Auber (PID, SSR, Heatsink, RTD) and some other stuff yesterday, I should be setting mine up soon. Like I said, I have thought this through every way and backwards, I continue to come up with revisions in my head but once I research it and compare price and effort with gain I come back to the same setup. The setup will consist of an HLT (keggle) with a 5,500 watt ULWD element, a Coleman xtreme Mash tun, and a BK (keggle) with another 5,500 watt ULWD element. Power will be coming from my 30-amp, 240v dryer outlet via a 30-amp GFCI extension cord into the control box to a distribution block. The block will distribute power to the PID and SSR/3-prong receptacle. The HLT & BK will have there own heating elements connected to the control panel with 3-wire dryer cord with plug. I will manually unplug and plug whichever keggle I need into the 3-prong receptacle in the control box. The only thing I'm up in the air about is the switch to the receptacle/element. Don't know if I want to go the switch/contactor route or just get the cheap 30-amp DPST switch from Home Depot and forget it. The control box will be mounted on a wall above and out of the way of the water/brewing process...just haven't committed to one over the other yet.

And to clarify, you absolutely need a thermocouple or RTD to connect to the PID for the PID to work. Even though it won't be using the sensor to provide power in manual mode, the PID needs that connection to run. In my system, I'll have the RTD located in the HLT...when I switch to the BK to boil, I'll just leave the RTD in place on the HLT (maintaining that connection).

For all the trouble, I think you'll find that being able to use the PID on the HLT will be a huge benefit. You'll already have the means to heat the HLT (element), you just need to switch the plugs. It may not be ideal but for the amount of $ and trouble, unplugging and plugging three or four times during a brew session shouldn't be much of an issue...particularly if you can cut power completely to the receptacle before you handle the plug.

illin8 said:

And to clarify, you absolutely need a thermocouple or RTD to connect to the PID for the PID to work. Even though it won't be using the sensor to provide power in manual mode, the PID needs that connection to run. In my system, I'll have the RTD located in the HLT...when I switch to the BK to boil, I'll just leave the RTD in place on the HLT (maintaining that connection).

Click to expand...

Wow... I'm shocked you need a thermocouple for manual mode operation. What a waste. I wonder if you could just connect a resistor or something across the terminals to fool the PID?

Walker said:

Wow... I'm shocked you need a thermocouple for manual mode operation. What a waste. I wonder if you could just connect a resistor or something across the terminals to fool the PID?

Click to expand...

Thermocouples can be very inexpensive. I wouldn't take a chance trying to use a resistor. And if you really don't want to use the thermocouple in the vessel you are controlling, you could drop it in the HLT, or MT just to monitor.

Walker said:

Wow... I'm shocked you need a thermocouple for manual mode operation. What a waste. I wonder if you could just connect a resistor or something across the terminals to fool the PID?

Click to expand...

however Walker, using your "system", with the PWM, instead of a pid, you don't use a thermocouple at all, just an SSR and you've used it, and it works just fine, correct? and you just use a regular thermometer on your BK to monitor the temps, which you're controlling with the PWM, right?

I've been following this thread with great interest and thought that someone might be interested in a wiring diagram that I made for the Auberin SYL -2352 PID.

Auberin-wiring1-a4.jpg (The image is rather large and can be printed in full scale on 11" x 17" paper)

What I have done is purchase a Spa Panel @ Home Depot or one compatible with the mains panel and then move its GFCI breaker to the mains panel. (The SPA panel breaker must match the main panel to accomplish this.) This way the entire brewery is GFCI protected. Standard breakers are then used in the Spa Panel for circuit protection.

I do not show the temp probe wiring as that is a rather easy task to accomplish. The specific wiring also depends on the type of temp sensor used.

Hope this helps someone.

chainsawbrewing said:

however Walker, using your "system", with the PWM, instead of a pid, you don't use a thermocouple at all, just an SSR and you've used it, and it works just fine, correct? and you just use a regular thermometer on your BK to monitor the temps, which you're controlling with the PWM, right?

Click to expand...

Correct. Note that I am actually going full HERMS here, but I am using a single electric vessle that will serve as the HERMS heat exchanger as well as the BK. To save costs and give myself some more DIY fun, I opted for a cheaper PID (no manual mode) and the homemade PWM instead of the more expensive PID that had the manual mode.

I will use the PID for my recirculating mash, but will be able to flip a switch later to select whether the PID or the PWM is in control of the SSR and element. The PWM needs no thermocouple.

My system is under construction, but I have done mock-up assemblies on my work bench to ensure that the PWM works fine for controlling the SSR and driving the heating element, and to ensure that I can flip that switch and use the PID to drive the SSR and element.

I'll upgrade at a later stage and add a dedicated electric HLT which will be controlled by the PID and then my little PWM will still be used to control the BK.

There are 1,000,000 ways to do things. I'm trying to keep costs low while still giving myself the room to expand later without making any piece of equipment obsolete.

edit: The first phase of my construction will actually just have the PWM in it. No pumping or automation or anything... just a controllable electric kettle to get me weened off propane. I'll use the system like that for a while while I make sure I have all my ducks in a row for the actual HERMS part of it.

P-J said:

I've been following this thread with great interest and thought that someone might be interested in a wiring diagram that I made for the Auberin SYL -2352 PID.

Auberin-wiring1-a4.jpg (The image is rather large and can be printed in full scale on 11" x 17" paper)

What I have done is purchase a Spa Panel @ Home Depot or one compatible with the mains panel and then move its GFCI breaker to the mains panel. (The SPA panel breaker must match the main panel to accomplish this.) This way the entire brewery is GFCI protected. Standard breakers are then used in the Spa Panel for circuit protection.

I do not show the temp probe wiring as that is a rather easy task to accomplish. The specific wiring also depends on the type of temp sensor used.

Hope this helps someone.

Click to expand...

Nice. One difference between your's and mine is I shut off both legs to the outlet with the SSRs. There are a whole bunch of hot threads regarding this exact issue, so I won't comment any further except to suggest to the reader that some are uncomfortable with that setup.

Right. You definitely want to be able to kill both hot lines to the element in some way. Some folks use two SSRs to do it and some put in some other kind of kill switch.

It's debated because if an SSR fails, it can fail in the "always on" mode which woulf mean that there is a live line going to your heater element even though you think it's off.

This is why I am using a big 2-pole contactor as a kill switch. When I tell it to turn off it will absolutely be off. Cheaper than a second SSR, too.

Here's my control panel:

White switches are main power for each element.
Black toggles are for pump and stir motor.



Picture of the guts of the panel as I was testing the power. Kinda tight in there, but its workable.



Misc Pics:

passedpawn said:

Nice. One difference between your's and mine is I shut off both legs to the outlet with the SSRs. There are a whole bunch of hot threads regarding this exact issue, so I won't comment any further except to suggest to the reader that some are uncomfortable with that setup.

Click to expand...

I absolutely see and understand the point. In the situation I have, the spa panel in on the rig. The breakers in the spa panel are the "kill switches" and the controller switches are for process control.

hey just thought of another idea, may be doable, maybe not.

instead of putting one female dryer plug in on my control box, and wiring dryer repair cords on my heating elements, and then having to unplug/plug them in, why couldn't i install a 220v breaker between each of my two elements and each female plug (talking about two female dryer plugs) then just flip the breaker on and off to completely 100% kill power to one element, or the other, that way they can both be plugged in. and since i'm only needing the pid and ssr, or the pwm and ssr on the BK element, i'll just need that on the one side.

taking that idea one step futher, why do i even need the female plugs, and the dryer extension cords at all?

why couldn't i just hardwire from my element into the control box, and then have that into a 220v breaker on the box, and then the out of the breaker into a distribution block that's being fed from the main 220v gfci breaker coming out of my main breaker box?

that way it's all hard wired, no plugging in or unplugging, no plugs at all, period. just flip the 220v breaker on to complete the connection to my HLT element, then flip it off to kill 100% of the power to that element.

then the other side, have my BK element hardwired, then into my control box hardwired to a second 220v breaker, then out of the breaker into my pid/ssr combo or pwn/ssr combo, then into the distribution block. then the same thing, i can flip the breaker on that the BK element is wired to to get power, control the power with the pid/ssr or pwn/ssr, and when i'm done, flip the breaker on the control box, and kill 100% of the power to that element.

do either of those ideas have any problems with them?

like i think i already mentioned, i want to be able to 100% kill power to the elements if i want/need to, safely, and hopefully not have to unplug/plug in the elements.

i'm just trying not to "give up" on the idea, thinking out loud here, lol.

chainsawbrewing said:

taking that idea one step futher, why do i even need the female plugs, and the dryer extension cords at all?

why couldn't i just hardwire from my element into the control box, and then have that into a 220v breaker on the box, and then the out of the breaker into a distribution block that's being fed from the main 220v gfci breaker coming out of my main breaker box?

that way it's all hard wired, no plugging in or unplugging, no plugs at all, period. just flip the 220v breaker on to complete the connection to my HLT element, then flip it off to kill 100% of the power to that element.

Click to expand...

You'll want plugs. You are going to have to clean your vessels at the end of the day, which will be a bit of a PITA if it is hard-wired to the rest of the system. Being able to unplug it and drag it away for scrubbing and rinsing is going to be important, isn't it?

chainsawbrewing said:

instead of putting one female dryer plug in on my control box, and wiring dryer repair cords on my heating elements, and then having to unplug/plug them in, why couldn't i install a 220v breaker between each of my two elements and each female plug (talking about two female dryer plugs) then just flip the breaker on and off to completely 100% kill power to one element, or the other, that way they can both be plugged in. and since i'm only needing the pid and ssr, or the pwm and ssr on the BK element, i'll just need that on the one side.

Click to expand...

Forgot to address the first item....

Whan you are describing here is basically the switch you were talking about earlier, but now it's implemented as two individual breakers instead of one switch.

Isn't that going to cost you more than the switch you were talking about earlier (plus leave you the option of accidentally turning them both on at the same time)?

Walker said:

Isn't that going to cost you more than the switch you were talking about earlier (plus leave you the option of accidentally turning them both on at the same time)?

Click to expand...

I take this back. Looks like 2-pole breakers can be found for about $8 new, so the cost isn't that bad.

You could do this or you could use a couple of contactors and a simple, low amp, 120V 2-way selector switch to get the same result. That would be a larger solution in terms of actual physical area taken up, but would remove the ability to accidentally turn both on at the same time and cost about the same as the breakers.

thanks, honestly the only reason i thought of the breakers, was because of what people were saying about a switch not actually completely "killing" 100% of the electric flow. maybe i'm confused, and was misunderstanding that, but what i took from it was that first off, you had to have some sort of an expensive "heavy duty" three way switch to be able to handle the 220volts, and that even then it only shut off one leg of the power. at least that's what i gathered, once again, i'm a novice here... but with an actual breaker, i figured it would effectively kill 100% of the power to the element, so much so, that i could splice the wires on the dryer cord and lick it if i wanted to, and have 0% risk of being shocked to death, lol.


also, correct me if i'm wrong, but if for some reason both of those breakers did get turned on at the same time, sending voltage to both elements simoultaniously, wouldn't it be too much power for the main gfci breaker in my breaker box, and simply trip the breaker?

chainsawbrewing said:

thanks, honestly the only reason i thought of the breakers, was because of what people were saying about a switch not actually completely "killing" 100% of the electric flow. maybe i'm confused, and was misunderstanding that, but what i took from it was that first off, you had to have some sort of an expensive "heavy duty" three way switch to be able to handle the 220volts, and that even then it only shut off one leg of the power. at least that's what i gathered, once again, i'm a novice here... but with an actual breaker, i figured it would effectively kill 100% of the power to the element, so much so, that i could splice the wires on the dryer cord and lick it if i wanted to, and have 0% risk of being shocked to death, lol.

Click to expand...

Breakers, switches, contactors.... when you turn them off, they basically are off. They are mechanical devices that explicitly break a connection.

The SSRs are the thing that can be tricky. There is no mechanical part to them. They allow voltage to pass through silicon. If one of them is manufactured badly or fails for some reason, you might think they are off, but they are on.

chainsawbrewing said:

also, correct me if i'm wrong, but if for some reason both of those breakers did get turned on at the same time, sending voltage to both elements simoultaniously, wouldn't it be too much power for the main gfci breaker in my breaker box, and simply trip the breaker?

Click to expand...

It depends on what the breaker in your panel is. I guess I missed that detail. If you are using 30A in the main panel and 30A breakers on your panel, then yes... turning on both elements would cause the breaker in the panel to trip pretty quickly.

Just make sure your wiring in the box is able to handle more than 30A so that it doesn't catch on fire.

Walker said:

The SSRs are the thing that can be tricky. There is no mechanical part to them. They allow voltage to pass through silicon. If one of them is manufactured badly or fails for some reason, you might think they are off, but they are on.




Just make sure your wiring in the box is able to handle more than 30A so that it doesn't catch on fire.

Click to expand...

however, with a switch or breaker set up, when you shut it off, it really doesn't matter what the ssr thinks, the element is without a doubt off, right?

by this you just mean make sure the wiring is a big enough gague right?

chainsawbrewing said:

however, with a switch or breaker set up, when you shut it off, it really doesn't matter what the ssr thinks, the element is without a doubt off, right?

Click to expand...

Right. You want that switch/breaker/contactor/whatever as your "I absolutely know there is no power going to the element" device and the SSR is there to handle the periodic on/off power toggling that is necessary for maintaining the boil or mash temp where you want it.

chainsawbrewing said:

by this you just mean make sure the wiring is a big enough gague right?

Click to expand...

Correct.

Chainsaw... I'd really encourage you do draw up your plan. Here is a thread I started:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/electric-question-153310/

I wouldn't suggest anyone try to use my exact design (you are welcome to any piece of it that might help you out), but rather work through their own.
I got a lot of great advice and I REALLY appreciated CodeRage kinda pushing me to learn what I was doing in the process. I ended up with a rock solid design and understand every element. If something fails, I am convinced I can troubleshoot it. And doing the drawings made the actual wiring a snap. Also, the drawing makes it possible for folks to offer advice and not be concerned that they missed a detail in one of the many posts that are already piling up.

Good luck
Ed

Does anybody have a simple yet detailed design for an element in a HLT w/thermostat wired to a PID for temp control only?