Water Primer and Bru'n Questions. Struggling a bit and looking for some help.

ajdelange said:

If you are using normal pale ale malts the expected distilled water mash pH will be about 5.7 - 5.75 for just the base malt. A bit of crystal or caramel will lower that to around 5.65 - 5.7. The added calcium will drop the pH by another tenth to 5.55 - 5.6 and 2% sauermaltz will take that down another 0.2 to 5.35 - 5.4. It's very unlikely that the pH would be as low as 5.2 without a fair amount of dark malt but if you are going to worry about pH at all it is very comforting to have the pH meter reading to verify. All these numbers are based on a model - in this case the model underlying the Primer. Bru'n water uses a different model and gives you a different answer. If you used the EZ spreadsheet you would get a different answer still (and a higher predicted mash pH) because it uses a third model. So the obvious question is as to which of these models is correct. The answer is that none of them are and that's why you need a pH meter. So which is the model to use? Who knows? Bru'n water is not very good at predicting what I see in my brewery and the Primer isn't very good at predicting what Bru'n water's author sees in his. If you are concerned that the mash pH will go too low, skip the acid malt altogether or only use 1%.

For perspective: I did a barleywine a week or so back with similar mineral content water and a fair amount of dark grain and Maris Otter base malt and got pH 5.51 without any acid. I'd withheld the acid because of those dark grains. Two percent sauermalz would have, theoretically, gotten me to 5.31 which would have been fine but a little lower than I like. 5.5 is higher than I like so I just took it down to 5.4 with CRS (carbonate reducing solution). Theoretically 1% sauermalz in the grist would have done the same job.

As noted above without sauermalz you'd probably get a mash pH of about 5.55 - 5.6 and while that is a little higher than you might ideally want you should be OK with it at that level.

The desirable level of chloride is a matter of personal taste. There is no problem with chloride at 133 mg/L unless you do not like the effects of chloride but most people do like what extra chloride does for beer. It sort of sweetens it and adds to the perceived mouthfeel. It was quite common at one time for people to add salt to their beer at the bar for that reason. You probably would not want that much chloride if you had much sodium but you don't.

The whole concept of the Primer is to prevent you from having to worry about water while you are dealing with the myriad other complexities of all grain brewing which is where I suspect your problems may lie. If changing the water made no perceivable difference in the beer it's not likely the water is responsible.

Three quarts per pound is, IMO, an awfully thin mash. I question whether the enzymes would be concentrated enough with that much water to be able to effectively convert the starches. Also the crush can have a large effect on the conversion efficiency. And, of course, accurate temperature control and maintenance is important. I have no experience with BIAB so I don't know if it is possible to make good beer using it. From what little I do know about it I don't see why it wouldn't be.

As for a recommendation at this point I'd say skip the sauermalz or use 1% so your mind will be at rest on that score and order the pH meter so you can stop worrying about it altogether. Then see what you can do to verify that the other aspects of your process are under control. Learning to brew does take some time so be patient and don't get discouraged. If you can watch other brewers work or get them to come watch you brew that is a great way to get tips.

Click to expand...

mabrungard said:

I have to admit that I've never given much thought amount of minerals recommended in the Primer since it uses teaspoons per 5 gallons as the dosing criteria and I work in grams per gallon.

The first problem appears to be the rate that CaCl2 is added to the water. Since volumetric measures are problematic in the first place, its debatable how much mineral is in a tsp of the stuff. My old measurements indicate that its on the order of 4 to 4.5 gm/tsp. That would suggest that the dosage per gallon would be more like 0.7 to 0.8 gm/gal. Then the chloride content is more like 90 ppm which is reasonable.

I see that the starting water is essentially RO water. Low alkalinity is present and tannin extraction due to excessive alkalinity or pH rise is unlikely. Tannin extraction due to oversparging is still possible. Avoid that.

Finally, my experience and the brewing results of myself and my beta testers indicate that the pH drop with a low alkalinity water like this brewer uses will produce low mash pH if the grist is reasonably acidic. In this example, the grist was not described. But I would not be surprised if the grist contained crystal and darker malts and the brewer already said there was acid malt in there. In addition, the residual alkalinity calculated for the mash water is already negative and no pH buffering will be offered by the water. Its no surprise that this mash pH is predicted to go low.

Removing the acid malt is a strong recommendation in this case. There does not appear to be a need for it. If you were brewing a European Light Lager and had little to no crystal malt, then the recommendation for acid malt would be more valid. It doesn't appear to be needed if this brewer's grist has crystal or other darker malts.

Remember, the target is mash pH, not the mash acidity. I'll have to revise that note so that other don't fixate on that value. Sorry for the trouble making!

Click to expand...

ajdelange said:

Given the grain bill you have posted I think you probably will need some acid. The evidence that your beers made with roast and/or lots of caramel malt does suggest that the pH will be higher in beers made without but high pH generally manifests itself as lack of well defined flavors, dull, flat flavored beer. Graininess can mean a couple of things. Husky flavors are often caused by overly aggressive grinding (the husks get pulverized or shredded), overly long sparge with overly hot water and/or high sparge pH. But some malts are just grainier than others and this is not necessarily considered a flaw. Based on this I'd suggest trying a different base malt. Maris Otter in particular gives rich malty flavors with no hint of husk or astringeny (in my experience) so you might want to try that.

Click to expand...