Need a hefe doctor - Sour tang aftertaste taste in multiple hefes

slothorentropy said:

I appreciated all the insightful comments along the way in this thread. I've got a semi-funked hefe right now that I'd considered lost but have resigned to just sort of forget about for a couple of months and see what happens. There was a lot of corny/veggie/DMS flavor in it at pitching due to some chilling problems (pump broke; had to chill overnight, etc.), and there was a sharp tartness to it both at pitching & bottling that was not at all pleasant. Cracked a bottle after two weeks of conditioning--still corny, still kind of sharp, though not as much as before. Actually got a hint of clove and banana under everything, it carbonated well and has decent body. So I'm good with waiting.

My specific question has to do with an aroma I got at bottling, after opening a bottle at two weeks, and which was still very present when I opened a bottle today (after almost a month). The best way to describe it would be funk--like the way an active fermentation smells. Like yeast doing its thing. Not sulfurous, exactly, or like rotten eggs. More of a bready, yeasty thing, but still very funky. Deep down underneath it you get the esters, but just barely. Is there a specific term used to reference this? Is it indicative of anything that might have gone wonky with the fermentation (higher than ideal temperatures were definitely a factor in SW OH this July).

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I am hoping that by the knoweldge in this thread I can produce an ayinger, or FK type hefe - and that others with hefe troubles can too. So I am glad that you are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully we can sort this out!

A couple comments and one question for the masses.

1. Veggie DMS stuff. I assume you used pilsner malt - 90+ minute boil with lid off?
2. The aroma is probably sulphur from the ferment. Maybe try scrubbing co2 in a keg before bottling? It should dissipate.
3. the bready yeasty thing I have too (I actually like that part). I consider it part of the style.
4. Do you have hard water? I am convinced that part of my sour tang accentuation issue is the hard water (TBD).


QUESTION/REQUEST: I read somewhere that Gordon Strong posted a water profile for his 1st place hefe recipe for NHC which was posted in a zymurgy magazine. IF ANYONE HAS THAT RECIPE AND WATER PROFILE PLEASE POST OR PM ME I beg you.... Also if you have a tried and true recipe and water profile that produces some thing similar to the above hefes... please let me know.

I am thinking that based on my water report the next time I do hefe I will attempt to work with distilled water and build up a profile that is much softer. Like pilsner, but more towards munich's low end. That is unless I get Gordon Strong's water profile....

If I have to brew a hefe and put it on a boat for months at god knows what temp and exposure to sunlight to get a FK hefe, d@mn it, that is what I will do.

I love a good heffe myself. My brew-bud and I have made 10 batches of heffes (100 gallons) with varying degrees of success, but always improving. Our last batch was very smooth and drinkable, but tended a bit more towards the banana flavors than we are aiming for. We hold the Franziskane up as the goal as well. We've made dunkels as well.

Our evolution to this point has been working through water profile issues, yeast issues, and mash temperatures. We have had the best luck with the Wyeast Weihenstephan Weizen 3068. We pitch one pack into our 10+ gallons of wort after a good smack. We have also started oxygenating the wort with the oxygen kit from Williams Brewing. The Wyeast gives us consistent results with a mild flavor. The dry Munich yeast also works but has a stronger flavor than we were looking for.

We have moved our mash temperatures all over the place looking for the right balance of sweetness with the rest of the flavors and hop additions. In the cooler months we like a bit heavier brew, mashing at 154 or so, but with the 100+ weather we have now, we are mashing at 150-151 degrees. There is still plenty of sweetness in the beer to our mind.

The water adjustments made the most difference for us. Our water has a high alkalinity level that caused a harshness to the bittering is probably the best way I can describe it. We dilute our water with 60% distilled or RO water, then add back a few chemicals in order to balance the magnesium-sodium and the sulfate-chloride ratios. Our adjustment after the dilution is 1.5g epsom salt and 2.2g calcium chloride.

------------ existing --- final
calcium ------ 119 ------ 63
magnesium --- 31 ------- 17
sodium ------- 45 ------- 18
sulfate ------- 142 ------ 72
chloride ------ 107 ------ 71
bicarbonate -- 425 ------ 75

We brewed with this adjustment for the last year or so with good results, then a few months ago I found the Bru'n Water calculator. The salt additions we had previously calculated were still correct, but it recommended we add lactic acid to the water in varying amounts for the mash (5 ml) and sparge (12ml) water. Our last batchs of pale ale and heffe were the smoothest beers we have made to date.

We are brewing the pale and heffe again tomorrow, along with an oktoberfest in the hopes it will bring cooler weather.

By the way bigdog - really appreciate the water profile. I will be coming back to this on my next hefe and will post back and let people know how my quest is fairing. Glad you guys are in hot pursuit. I think the softer water will be the ticket for full success. While the hefe/dunkels taste good, they just aren't a FK!

Mastah, thanks for the comments on my post. One of the things I realized in reading this thread is that I didn't do a 90min boil--I didn't even know a 90min boil was part of brewing with pilsner malt until just recently.

slothorentropy said:

Mastah, thanks for the comments on my post. One of the things I realized in reading this thread is that I didn't do a 90min boil--I didn't even know a 90min boil was part of brewing with pilsner malt until just recently.

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Glad to help. Your fix is way easier than mine! If I have to haul 15G of distilled water and treat it to get it closer to making a good hefe then I can see a lot fewer hefes in my future!

Another key to reducing DMS is chilling quickly. I was just reading somewhere that you want to chill your wort to <140F ASAP after the boil to avoid DMS from forming. I think I read that on Mr. Malty. Luckily for me with my huge immersion chiller I have no issue chilling a brew from 212 down to <140F.

http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

And really DMS is not just a worry in pilseners malts. Do a 90 min boil with any very light colored malt-such as pilsner.

Wouldn't that include like virtually every base malt in that SRM range?

I personally have never had issues with 2row, pale malt, maris otter light base SRM brews at 60 minutes. A buddy of mine did have that issue with a pilsner - we could taste it. Not saying oldschool is wrong, just saying I never do a 90 minute boil unless there is a good chunk of pilsner in there.

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at. If the best practice were to boil every very light-colored malt for 90 minutes to avoid DMS, wouldn't the conventional boil time for most AG recipes be 90 min, not 60?

It comes out about right for me if I wash the yeast from a 5 gallon batch and split into 3 50mL conical vials. Each yeast vial looks to be similar to the WL amount so I can do 3 brews of ale at 1.055 or so without a starter. If it's been in the fridge longer than 3 months, is a lager, or is a high grav I usually do a 48 hour 1 liter starter.

My dunkelweizen is just finishing up before the keg and I tasted the same tangy sourness as my last hefe. I've had the same experience as you... The hefs come out on the sour end while other styles are more or less fine. I, too, have hard water, do I wonder if that is the reason. On the other hand, my first hef used S04 and I didn't recall the same tanginess, though that recipe also used much less wheat.

It seems the chemistry might accentuate the tang more than some other factors, but has anyone verified this? I wonder if even having lots of wheat contributes... The tang reminds me of bread dough.

Also, I listened to Jamil's episode on dunkelweizens and he suggested these beers be fermented at 62 F for more balanced flavors.