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Does anyone know what kind of laws there are for something small like selling gift baskets? Like if you wanted to sell a six pack with homemade beef jerky or cheese. I wonder if you would need a major license for something like that?
 
I'm not sure where most people get their estimates, but a new brewpub opened here in town and talking with the owners, it's a seriously spendy investment, 500k-1mil to do things right and no guarantee you'll make money in the first three years. Talking with people in the business sobers up the pipe dreams....

-RS
 
There's a place in town here called Montana Ale Works. It's in an old depot, has a train car out front for summer dining. Looks kinda cool. Tourists go in there all the time thinking it's a brew pub. Why wouldn't it be? It's kinda big, and that name....It's not. They have their house beers brewed by contract brewers out of town and they have that big ol' depot full of tables, where tourists fill up on $40 buffalo steaks, and single-malt scotch, some as much as $50 for a double.

Locals sit at the bar and drink the pints of "house beer" for $2.50.

They are squeezing every $ out of every square foot and doing very well. The former manager once told me that when they first opened six years ago, they were planning on building a brewery in that space and only intended to contract out their brewing temporarily. Well, as soon as they figured out that dining tables bring in more than pool tables, the in-house brewery plan was scrapped, and now it's a big, loud, VERY profitable joint.

There also was Spanish Peaks Brewing (Black Dog Ale). They had a cool little brew pub, but following the example of the Ale Works, moved into a bigger space, stopped all on-premises brewing and went for semi-upscale "trattoria dining." They did much better by doing that. (The company imploded later, but for other reasons.)

"Brewpubs" without breweries. Pretty weird. But it must be pretty rough to "keep it real."
 
mr_cad said:
I did not see this posted so forgive me if someone already did it. Info form Homebrewers associations where you can pick the state you reside in and see the statutes.

http://www.beertown.org/homebrewing/legal.html

nice link, mr_cad. just looking at 5-6 different state's laws, most of them stipulate no barter in the language, which i think any reasonable person would agree includes all the schemes mentioned above, like selling the keg, etc.

also, the AHA (beertown.org) offers for sale a 196 page, $80 book called "The Brewers Association Guide to Starting Your Own Brewery". probably a good place to start, if you're REALLY serious.
 
bigjon88 said:
Does anyone know what kind of laws there are for something small like selling gift baskets? Like if you wanted to sell a six pack with homemade beef jerky or cheese. I wonder if you would need a major license for something like that?

Same laws apply to my knowledge...'cept of course now you prb have FDA fun included in the mix!
 
RedSun said:
I'm not sure where most people get their estimates, but a new brewpub opened here in town and talking with the owners, it's a seriously spendy investment, 500k-1mil to do things right and no guarantee you'll make money in the first three years. Talking with people in the business sobers up the pipe dreams....

-RS

Most any new brew pub owner would more than likely try to talk up the investment required to keep competion down. And while I'm sure it would be easy to spend $500k to a cool Million $ on a brew pub. I'm also sure it could be done for a lot less than that. Here's a break down based on Sabco prices and while it by no means is a complete list of every thing you'd need I think it would give anyone a good idea of the basic starting point.

3 propane or NG Brew Magic brewstands @ $5070 each = $15,210.00

brewing 2 kegs per day 5 days a week you'd need 20 Sabco Triclamp Fermenters
$570 x 20 = $11,400.00

40 kegs for conditioning and 10 for dispensing and spares @ $395 each = $19,750.00

That comes to $46,660.00 for the basic brewing equipment.

You'd still need coolers, dispensing equipt. a conditioned air facility for conditioning, a Bar and if you wanted to make a go of it down south you'd need to serve good food so I figure a restaurant kitchen and dining room costs also which can easily run $50k-200K depending on what you trying to do. Then there lic. money, start up costs and depending on where you live protection money. Most folks won't eat or drink in a place thats not attractive so you'd have decoration costs plus signage and advertisment costs. So I'd say it could be done for between $200k-$250K. Or that you could add a brew pub to an existing pizza place for $55k-$70K. And while thats by no means a state of the art brew pub it's a far cry from a million $.
 
There's no way you'd run a brewpub of any size (certainly not big enough to be profitable) with a BrewMagic system. Even the small brewpub I frequent locally has a 5BBL system, which is just about as small as you're going to be able to get away with. I'm not buying the $1M figure, though.
 
bigjon88 said:
Does anyone know what kind of laws there are for something small like selling gift baskets? Like if you wanted to sell a six pack with homemade beef jerky or cheese. I wonder if you would need a major license for something like that?

You need a commercial kitchen if you offer food for sale. It must be inspected by the Health Department and have things like dish sanitizers, etc.

A local couple here who makes BBQ sauce for sale rented out church kitchen to make their stuff, so they could follow the rules and have a commercial kitchen.

Brewpubs would be the same- a properly licensed kitchen and a properly licensed brewery would cost a fortune.
 
http://www.nabrewing.com/products.shtml

Realize that most of the people selling stuff failed with their breweries.

Here's the thing that I can't get over: a lot of people come to this board and eventually ask about starting a brewery. None of them seem to have a great amount of business knowledge when it comes to running a start-up, and everyone assumes that their beer will be profitable.

Now, not to be insulting to anyone, but homebrew has a reputation as being terrible, and it's because a lot of homebrew is really bad. But, like our children, WE love it despite its faults.

Here's something I never see:

"Hey guys, I have a recipe that's a real hit. It's won gold in 10 major national competitions and I'm at the point where I can flawlessly replicate it time and time again. I can brew 100 gallons for about $0.60 in ingredients per pint. It's not something standard like and IPA, so it's not going to be a threat to many pro brewers flagship products. How do I sell this to a professional brewery and protect my recipe so that I can eventually brew this on my own?"

You know why I never see that? Because people with killer recipes - ones that have credentials behind it like an NHBC gold medal - are on the radar of pro breweries. You think Jim Koch doesn't know the name Jamil Zanishwhosyermama? Or Charlie Papazian?

We all have good recipes, but if you want to make it in the pros you need to either have an insane amount of excess capital and luck or an outstanding resume. For every Ben and Jerry out there, there are a billion stoners who make great ice cream. For every Sam Cagalioni, there's a million guys with a bag of fruit and odd hops.

Join your chamber of commerce and see if there's a need for a brewpub in your neighborhood. In a developing area, they might actually have a request out there for someone to open one and offer incentives and tax breaks. Get some money together and put together a business plan. Find businesspeople in your area and try to pitch your plan to them to see if they'll invest with you. Make sure you have your financials in place. Attend an investors workshop where you can make your pitch to VC's, Angels, etc. Have samples ready to hand out at all times and make sure you have an award attached to them so you can talk it up.

The last thing you want to do is put all of your own money into a brewery and then see it fail and have to lose house and home. Hire a business manager who knows how to run this type of establishment. Hire a FOH and BOH manager to make sure you get the restaurant / bar properly set up and staffed. Prepare for the best and the worse: what if you're at full capacity every day? Will you have enough beer and food on hand? What if no one shows up?

In short, you need to know how to run a business, not just brew 5 gallon batches in your garage.
 
I don't know Cheese.
I think a clever loophole around the BATF; the IRS; Federal, State and local authorities is the way to go.

It's a crazy plan, but it just might work.
 
olllllo said:
Jamil is on the record saying that he makes more money in his real job than he ever could in the Brewing Industry.

He's the Director of Engineering for Macromedia. Not exactly an average chump job.
 
Cheesefood said:
He's the Director of Engineering for Macromedia. Not exactly an average chump job.

Right, I know.
He has skills that allow him to do whatever he wants and he chose not to go into brewing professionally.

My point is that knowing how to brew is not some magical power that will make you a captain of the brewing industry.

I'd rather partner up with a guy that owns or manages a bike shop than the best homebrewer.
 
olllllo said:
Right, I know.
He has skills that allow him to do whatever he wants and he chose not to go into brewing professionally.

My point is that knowing how to brew is not some magical power that will make you a captain of the brewing industry.

I'd rather partner up with a guy that owns or manages a bike shop than the best homebrewer.

He's a Director with Macromedia, and yet his website sucks ass.

For most people, drinking craft beer is less about the taste than it is about the experience of trying something obscure. I can guarantee you that a crappy beer with a great label will outsell a great beer with a crappy label in a one-day selling contest. However, if one label can claim the beer to be a proven winner, it'll outsell others. Don't believe me? Think about Miller Lite's newest campaign. That being said, there's also something to be said about making something people are comfortable with. DFH's beers are a bit too radical for most people. It's tough to justify dropping $10 on something you might not like, especially when you have the choice between one bottle of 120 Min IPA or a 12er of Miller Lite.
 
Cheesefood said:
We all have good recipes, but if you want to make it in the pros you need to either have an insane amount of excess capital and luck or an outstanding resume.
Marketing and creativity. That's what will make or break most people. Even a half decent product can make money if the marketing is right.
 
Hmm well there is kind of a loop hole. You could rent out a warehouse or something along those lines and set up your brewery stuff there. You fill out the forms pay taxes blah blah blah for a brewpub..

The % is different in every state, but Georgia law is that a brewpub has to have 50% sales from food, so you could sell your beer from there and then once a week or some have a grill out and sell hotdogs and hamburgers or whatever, if you could make 50% of your revenue then your golden.
 
YooperBrew said:
It's 100 gallons per legal adult, up to 200 gallons per household, per year. Not 200 each.

A hundred gallons isn't that much 5 us gallons = 32 pints so 100 gallons = 640 pints divided by 365 days and you get 1.75 pints a day, you would hardly have to be a raving alcoholic to hit those sorts of figures.

Have to say i prefer the UK system, unlimited fermented beverages!!!
 
delboy said:
A hundred gallons isn't that much 5 us gallons = 32 pints so 100 gallons = 640 pints divided by 365 days and you get 1.75 pints a day, you would hardly have to be a raving alcoholic to hit those sorts of figures.

Have to say i prefer the UK system, unlimited fermented beverages!!!
1 US gallon = 8 pints.

So says teh g00glez: [ame]http://www.google.com/search?q=gallons+to+pints&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial&client=firefox-a[/ame]
 
One piece that needs to be in here. I thought this thread was going to die a few pages ago. It has moved from Farmer's Markets to brew pubs. So you got your brew pub open. You get 20 homebrewer's in the first weekend.

The home brewers each come back with five buddies from the office. Your first 100 customers. If they all have a good time 4,000 people will hear about it and you have a chance. If those 80 not homebrewer customers don't find something they like you might as well close the doors now before you lose anymore dough.

Besides the interesting brews you already make, what are you going to have on tap for the people who can talk about Coors Lite verus Miller Lite and rag on Good old Bud Longnecks for being "too heavy"? That is going to be 80% of your customers, but if you don't have "Sex in a Canoe" on tap they won't be back.

How do you feel about making four kegs of this mystery brew for every one of interesting brew you get to make?

Just to consider. Having owned three small businesses, I really like making the beer I like for me, and I don't care two squirts if anybody else likes it at all.
 
I was talking to a brewer and part owner of a brew pub a while ago. He started out by cleaning kegs during summer holidays. He was offered a full time job and said yes on the condition he could learn the brewing process. He did a sort of unofficial apprenticeship for the next few years. He then went on to be assistant brewer and brewer at a couple of brew pubs and also took 6 months off to do a master brewers course. He now owns a share in a brew bar but no longer does much brewing, more office work.

So before being a brew pub owner he spent years working in brew pubs learning the process and the business.

And remember, drunk people are some of the worst customers. How often do you see mates punching each other, puking all over the place or kicking in the toilet doors for something to do at the local book store?

I once worked for a guy that used to run a pub. I remember him saying "if I can give you one piece of advice, it's never get involved in a business that serves alcohol". I'm glad some people do though, or I wouldn't be able to go out for a beer!
 
Poindexter said:
One piece that needs to be in here. I thought this thread was going to die a few pages ago. It has moved from Farmer's Markets to brew pubs. So you got your brew pub open. You get 20 homebrewer's in the first weekend.

The home brewers each come back with five buddies from the office. Your first 100 customers. If they all have a good time 4,000 people will hear about it and you have a chance. If those 80 not homebrewer customers don't find something they like you might as well close the doors now before you lose anymore dough.

Besides the interesting brews you already make, what are you going to have on tap for the people who can talk about Coors Lite verus Miller Lite and rag on Good old Bud Longnecks for being "too heavy"? That is going to be 80% of your customers, but if you don't have "Sex in a Canoe" on tap they won't be back.

How do you feel about making four kegs of this mystery brew for every one of interesting brew you get to make?

Just to consider. Having owned three small businesses, I really like making the beer I like for me, and I don't care two squirts if anybody else likes it at all.

I've read this twice and I don't understand a single bit of it.
 
Cheesefood said:
I've read this twice and I don't understand a single bit of it.

What I am saying is:

1) If you open a brew pub you got to make payments on 200k to 1mil.

2) To do that you got to sell beer to _everybody_.

3) To do that you are going to have to have "Effen close to water" on tap next to "Sex in a Canoe", so the masses can have a choice.

4) Because IIPA is such a small percent of your sales, you will spend most of your life making those two BMC clone beers you despise.



EDIT: I'll be amazed if none of you have heard this one before, but why is American BMC beer like practicing reproduction in a canoe? It is effen close to water....
 
Poindexter said:
What I am saying is:

1) If you open a brew pub you got to make payments on 200k to 1mil.

2) To do that you got to sell beer to _everybody_.

3) To do that you are going to have to have "Effen close to water" on tap next to "Sex in a Canoe", so the masses can have a choice.

4) Because IIPA is such a small percent of your sales, you will spend most of your life making those two BMC clone beers you despise.



EDIT: I'll be amazed if none of you have heard this one before, but why is American BMC beer like practicing reproduction in a canoe? It is effen close to water....

Ahh...yes. We'll all agree with those points. When my wife and I go to a brewpub for dinner she orders Miller Lite or wine since she's not a fan of full-flavored beers. You also have to figure that you'll sell pints of your beer for about the same price as a bottle of Miller Lite, and it takes 3 Lite's to get someone as buzed as one of your beers. Therefore, you'll make way more money in lite beer than in Oatmeal Stout.
 
Poindexter said:
One piece that needs to be in here. I thought this thread was going to die a few pages ago. It has moved from Farmer's Markets to brew pubs. So you got your brew pub open. You get 20 homebrewer's in the first weekend.

The home brewers each come back with five buddies from the office. Your first 100 customers. If they all have a good time 4,000 people will hear about it and you have a chance. If those 80 not homebrewer customers don't find something they like you might as well close the doors now before you lose anymore dough.

Besides the interesting brews you already make, what are you going to have on tap for the people who can talk about Coors Lite verus Miller Lite and rag on Good old Bud Longnecks for being "too heavy"? That is going to be 80% of your customers, but if you don't have "Sex in a Canoe" on tap they won't be back.

How do you feel about making four kegs of this mystery brew for every one of interesting brew you get to make?

Just to consider. Having owned three small businesses, I really like making the beer I like for me, and I don't care two squirts if anybody else likes it at all.

I *think* I understand your point: unless you have homebrewers in the vanguard of initial/loyal customers, you are doomed to fail when faced with the beer-ignorance of John G. Public. Right?

I wouldn't sell the public so short. Have you seen the beer cooler in your local store? Even if the majority of the micro-/craft-brew customers are falling for the cool label or the zippy name, they are open to falling for it. They want to buy something unusual. (Another must-do for a new brewpub owner: hire a real graphic designer and marketing guy with local experience.)

People like to drink, and they like to know that what they are drinking is good, even if they lack the connoisseurship to really taste it. Have you seen what's been happening with tequila in the last 5-7 years or so? Tequila, of all things? Or vodka?

And for the common clay of humanity...nearly every brewpub I've been in still sells macrocornwater in an aluminum bottle, too.

As for "Sex in a canoe".....try to stay on centerline.
 
Cheesefood said:
Ahh...yes. We'll all agree with those points. When my wife and I go to a brewpub for dinner she orders Miller Lite or wine since she's not a fan of full-flavored beers. You also have to figure that you'll sell pints of your beer for about the same price as a bottle of Miller Lite, and it takes 3 Lite's to get someone as buzed as one of your beers. Therefore, you'll make way more money in lite beer than in Oatmeal Stout.

It's too bad you can't get your wife to partake in something more adventurous than Miller Lite... ;)
 
the_bird said:
It's too bad you can't get your wife to partake in something more adventurous than Miller Lite... ;)

She did have a couple Cream Ales this weekend, but that's just because the alternative was a Red Ale.
 
gary%20schneider%20general%20lee.jpg


all you need is one of these. Duh
 
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