First Saison Help

I would appreciate any suggestions to adjust my recipe for a first attempt at a Saison. I'm going for something of a farm house summer beer here, not overly spiced.

Recipe: Frosted Orange
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
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Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.83 gal
Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
Estimated Color: 10.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 55.17 %
3.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 20.69 %
1.00 lb Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6.90 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6.90 %
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 3.45 %
0.50 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3.45 %
0.50 lb Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 3.45 %
1.50 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (75 min, 1st wort hops) 24.3 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (5 min) Hops 2.8 IBU
1.00 items Vanilla Bean (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.20 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.20 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
3.00 Orange Peel Zest(Boil 5.0 min) Misc
2 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) 2l starter

Total Grain Weight: 14.00 lb
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Double Infusion, Light Body
60 min Saccrification Add 16.10 qt of water at 156.6 F 145.0 F
20 min Saccrification Add 4.90 qt of water at 202.7 F 157.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 7.00 qt of water at 205.0 F 168.0 F

Personally and imo, I think honey malt is out of place. Saisons are typically bone dry and honey malt will make it a little sweeter, imo. Caramunich may be out of place for this reason, as well. I'd either do a 1/2 lb of honey malt or caramunich if you really want that, but not 1/2 lb of each. I've not done a saison with a vanilla bean but I would think the vanilla would also lend a "sweet" note to the flavor. Additionally, Cascade isn't "typical" for a saison but neither are vanilla beans and honey malt. I actually enjoy saisons with Cascade in them for a little extra citrus note that they provide. Not traditional but it works well with the yeast.

Also, are you really going to use 2 pkgs of 3711 AND a 2L starter? 1 should be fine with a starter (that's why you make a starter, afterall). It is your money but I think that should save you $6 or so.

You may want to increase your 145 mash time to 90 mins to ensure everything gets broken down. I've read that 45 mins is plenty for mashing and have actually seen it in practice in micro-breweries but they also tended to up the grain bill since grain was cheaper than labor... I've also read that 90 mins is pushing it for temps that low and you should do 120 mins. In my experience, a little extra patience in the beginning pays off after fermentation. I typically start my sparge water heating at 80 - 90 mins when I'm mashing below about 148 and then sparge when it comes up to temp and it seems to work for me.

Don't know if that's what you were looking for but it's what I got!

Thanks for the tips, I think I had a sweet tooth while I was putting this recipe together. I'm actually only using 1 smack pack of yeast, that's just how I enter the recipe in Beer Smith so I know what size of starter to make. I think I might eliminate the honey malt all together. I'll up the time at 145 and keep the 20 minute 157 hold at the end before mash out. It should end up pretty dry regardless, I've seen this yeast take a 1.070 gravity beer down to 1.003 even at a 152 degree single infusion mash. That's why I had initially put a pound and a half of caramel (honey/caramunich) malt in.

I've heard great things about 3711 also and am going to use it very soon. My starter is going as I type this, in fact. I am still a little concerned it will attack the complex sugars as much as it would base malts, though. It may well bring them down, as well. My past experience is with the DuPont strain and I can tell you, it is not nearly as nice to work with but it can handle temps in the 90s!

I've done a step mash with a Duvel-type beer with excellent results on fermentability; fairly high SG and FG in the ~1.005 range for a nearly 10% beer. It really dried out the beer. You could do something similar by including a couple of steps at ~122 and ~135 but I don't really think it is necessary with this yeast. I'm probably not going to do so, at least.

Mine will be a bit higher than 1.070 (probably 10+ points higher) but I am Bretting a good bit of it, as well, so they can't really be compared. Your gravity looks spot on and I think you should have a great beer. I'm still hesitant about the vanilla, though! But, the great thing about brewing it yourself is that you don't have to please anyone but you.

Best of luck and keep us posted.