Rhubarb-Ginger Wine - Issues With Fermentation

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gitano

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This is my first post at this forum.

I searched for "pH", "pH during fermentation", "acid", and "reduce acidity" and found no threads that addressed my question. If "you" know of thread(s) that do, please attach links.

I am making rhubarb-ginger wine according to a recipe that I got from a YouTube video. This is the recipe:

18 lbs of rhubarb
7 ounces of fresh ginger
9.25 lbs of sugar - 2 of which are "brown"
4 cans of Welch's white grape juice concentrate
Juice and 'zest' of 6 medium lemons
1 tsp of acid blend (tartaric acid)
1 tsp of yeast nutrient
metabisulfide for 5 gallons
1.5 tsp of tannin
yeast - (MA33)

To cut to the chase scene: The rhubarb had been frozen for approximately 9 mo and therefore macerated easily upon thawing AND provided a great deal of "free-liquid". I added 2 lb of white sugar, the campden, grape juice concentrate, yeast nutrient, yeast, and sufficient water to make 5.5 gal (including solids), of must in a 7-gal primary fermentation container.

Fermentation did not start for approximately 84 hours, but when it did, it was vigorous - approximately 850 liters of gas per day.

I pitched another 2 lb of sugar (the brown), after the first 48h which was approximately 36h BEFORE fermentation started.

24 hours AFTER fermentation STARTED, I pitched another 2 lb of sugar, the juice and zest of 6 medium lemons, and the juice and a small amount of pulp of the ginger. Fermentation continued vigorously for approximately 6 hours. Then quit abruptly. I stirred the must vigorously, and the fermentation resumed but only generating about 50 liters of gas per day. It quit altogether in less than an hour.

12h later, I pitched another 2 lb of white sugar. Fermentation resumed but weakly, and only lasted approximately an hour.

Current specific gravity is approximately 1.020. Tasting it, the must is clearly not completely fermented, which is supported by the SG reading.

I have never bothered with testing the pH of a must, but I have never added the juice and zest of 6 lemons to a must before either. I am suspicious that the fermentation was curtailed by a pH too low for the MA33 yeast.

Does that sound reasonable?

It is the weekend, and I can't get my hands on a pH testing kit before Tuesday. Assuming that the cause for the curtailed fermentation is low pH:

1) What is the best additive to bring the pH up to a level where fermentation will resume?
2) How much should I add? (I understand that without a pH reading, that the dose may be difficult to determine, but... if the amounts are often relatively small, then how about a "range".)
3) I have pounds and pounds of powdered eggshells. Would that be a reasonable source of CaCO3 to use to raise the ph?


Of course if "you" think that pH is NOT the reason the fermentation stopped abruptly, I would appreciate your thoughts as to why.

Thanks,
Paul
 
After you mixed everything up, did you check the SG prior to adding yeast? You might be at 14 or 15 percent already and simply poisened your yeast.
 
Thanks for the response.

I did not measure SG at first because I did not pitch all of the sugar at once. Therefore, there is no "initial" SG (except in a linguistic sense). If you keep adding sugar as the fermentation continues which is the "initial" value?

I have never had any fermented drink reach 14% alcohol in 48 hours of fermentation with only 6 lb of sugar in 6 gallons of wort/must. Tasting it, it most certainly does not taste of high alcohol content. The current SG is around 1.02-ish. Does't seem like 14% alcohol to me, especially since not a lot of sugar - 6 lbs in 6 gallons - has been added, and rhubarb isn't particularly naturally sweet, neither is lemon or ginger. However, I must acknowledge that the 4 cans of Welch's white grape juice added quit a bit of sugar. Still, slamming shut at 48-ish hours of fermentation? And right after I pitch the lemon juice, zest, and ginger juice? Seems too coincidental to me... but I'm open to the opinions of those that are more experienced than I.

Paul

PS - Turns out that the "similar threads" list at the bottom of this thread had this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=480197. That is the fellow who's recipe I am using. I will PM him and see if he has any suggestions.

Paul
 
I think there may be something here - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=418657. "An ounce of precipitated chalk per gallon to remove the excessive oxalic acid". I'm thinking I started out pretty low with all of the rhubarb, then 'slammed' it with the lemon. Here goes some eggshells to see what happens! Wish me luck.

Paul
 
HOLY COW! I added 6 ounces of pulverized eggshells to the must and the fermentation WENT CRAZY! IMMEDIATELY! I'll have to keep an eye on the fermenter for while to make sure it does't 'explode'!

Sincere thanks to HomeBrewTalk!

Paul

Got to thinking about 'things' both biological and chemical, and I don't think the gas production I saw was the result of biological activity - fermentation. It was instead the freeing of CO2 as CaCO3 is combined with "acid" to liberate CO2. The speed of the response was bothering me from a biological activity perspective. MUCH too fast - instantaneous - to be biological, but typical of "pouring acid on sea-shells" or the chemical equivalent. Nonetheless, there clearly was some serious acidity in the must. We'll see what's happening in 6 hours.

Paul
 
Please let us know how it turns out and what you learn, I'll be making the same thing shortly and would like to profit from your hard-earned knowledge. Thanks in advance, and good luck!
 
I will post results as I have them along the way buMbLeB. As of now, about 2 hours later, the fermentation is doing well. I had to take the lid off of the fermenter and stir the cap down a bit. I think most of the 'chemistry' was finished in a few minutes and thereafter the gas production is now a function of fermentation. Current rate of production is about 500 liters per day (about 21 l/h). I still have 3.25 lbs of sugar to pitch if I follow the recipe. I will continue to add sugar as long as I can get vigorous fermentation AND the taste is "ok".

News at ll.

Paul
 
Still fermenting 18 hours later although with less vigor. I pitched the last two lbs of sugar today. I will let the fermentation subside to 'undetectable', remove the cap, let settle for 6h or so, and transfer to secondary fermenter. As of the time of this post, the total number of hours since fermentation started is approximately 90. Even if it continues for another 24, which I expect, the time of vigorous fermentation (gas generation greater than ~50 liters per day or ~2 liters per hour), will be less than 5 days.

Paul
 
Part of what happened when you added the egg shells was probably a release of dissolved CO2. When any powder (or any rough surfaced solid) is added to a solution with too much CO2 dissolved, it creates spots for the CO2 to come out of solution and fizz like crazy. Happens all the time when people try to back sweeten mead with granulated sweeteners.
 
Certainly a possible explanation given that I did not know what the pH was. However, the fermentation had stopped as if turned off with a switch after the addition of the lemon juice, zest, and ginger. Also, I would stir the must at least once a day. Usually, any such addition of energy - kinda like dropping a warm can of pop - will liberate any gas that is dissolved and whose partial pressure is above ambient. After the addition of the eggshell the fermentation restarted with vigor, and continues to the time of this post. I have since purchased some litmus strips (two varieties) and the current pH is about 4.5.

Thanks for your reply. I suppose that since I did not know the pH prior to adding the eggshells, we will never know for certain what the cause of the off-gassing was - liberation or generation.

Paul
 
Certainly a possible explanation given that I did not know what the pH was. However, the fermentation had stopped as if turned off with a switch after the addition of the lemon juice, zest, and ginger. Also, I would stir the must at least once a day. Usually, any such addition of energy - kinda like dropping a warm can of pop - will liberate any gas that is dissolved and whose partial pressure is above ambient. After the addition of the eggshell the fermentation restarted with vigor, and continues to the time of this post. I have since purchased some litmus strips (two varieties) and the current pH is about 4.5.

Thanks for your reply. I suppose that since I did not know the pH prior to adding the eggshells, we will never know for certain what the cause of the off-gassing was - liberation or generation.

Paul

I'd bet my wine closet on nucleation points...
 
Not arguing, but how do you explain the revitalization of completely stopped fermentation?

Paul
 
I was always expecting to add pectic enzyme to the wine, but I have not used it in the past. Since it wasn't clearing very fast, and I have read that rhubarb wine is particularly prone to "pectin issues", I decided to add 3/4 of a teaspoon to a growler full of this must. 24 hours later, there was significant clearing. You can see the cloudiness in the adjacent containers.
IMG_0209_sm_zpstj7wtz8b.jpg


So I added the appropriate amounts to the rest of my containers including a carboy, two 375ml bottles, and a couple of quart jars. After another 24 hours (48 for the growler and 24 for the other containers), this is what things looked like:
IMG_0256-sm_zps7hcmkavw.jpg


"All is good" - mostly. Have a look at the carboy before and after pictures:
IMG_0212-sm-2_zpsz5xpepxj.jpg
IMG_0257-sm_zpskihrqss0.jpg


Notice the huge amount of flocculent in the bottom of the carboy. At least 4" increase. I am certain that layer is mostly - in a big way mostly - "wine", but I'm not certain I can extract the wine from it without vacuum filtering.

Will that layer diminish by settling as time passes?
Will I need to vacuum filter to get the wine from that?

Thanks,
Paul
 
I don't really have any knowledge to impart. I mean, I would guess that it would tamp down considerably over time, but I've never done it myself.

But I did want to say - what a beautiful colour!
 
Thanks! The true color in the carboy is not that dark. Some color modification going on in posting images, but the color in the growler is about right. I think the darkness in the carboy is in part due to a relatively dark background as the picture of the growler has an open window behind it. I'm guessing that the final color will be "tangerine-ish".

The new flocculent has settled a little even in the last 6 hours or so, so I have some hope of it settling significantly.

Paul
 
Do NOT filter a wine until it is totally clear.

I appreciate the admonition, but in thinking people, such absolute directives always beg the question, "Why?". I can imagine/assume that the reason is that suspended particles will clog the filter and make successful filtering frustrating and ineffective without substantially increased effort. But that's just imagination and assumption. Having been in the military and forced at the point of a gun (metaphorically, sort of), to "take orders", I have no small aversion to being "told" what to do without explanation. In a combat zone blind obedience has its place. This not being a combat zone, I would respectfully appreciate the reasoning/rationale behind the command: "Do NOT filter a wine until it is totally clear."

I was greeted this morning by more interesting sights. The flocculent has indeed settled considerably, (almost by half), and some had actually been floated to the surface of the growler by the fermentation occurring below it.
IMG_0264-sm_zpsfudlnjyv.jpg


Here you can see how the flocculent has settled by about half in the carboy. Fermentation below the pectin flocculent layer has not - yet - caused this layer to breakup with some pieces floating to the surface. However, the pectin enzyme has been in the growler for 24h longer than in the carboy. (Total today of 72h in the carboy, 96 in the growler.)
IMG_0269-sm_zpsi4ogcugl.jpg
IMG_0257-sm_zpskihrqss0.jpg

(While the images aren't exactly the same scale, you can see settling that has taken place. "After" picture on left, "Before" picture on right.)

The small 375ml bottles appear clearer than the growler even though the growler has had the pectinase 24h longer. This is in part due to less liquid to look through, and in part because the bottles have been settling for 48 longer than the growler. I've added day-before-yesterday's picture for a sidexside comparison of what 48h has meant to clarity.
IMG_0265-sm_zpse4hocmvw.jpg
IMG_0259-sm_zpsmw09lmbn.jpg


However, here's a bit of a mystery. These quart jars, that essentially got the 'dregs' of moving the must from the primary to the secondary, have not cleared nearly as much as any of the other containers.
IMG_0279-sm_zps6i3ssytt.jpg
IMG_0278-sm_zpsuwj2sxgf.jpg


Paul
 
Last edited:
If you filter a wine that is visibly cloudy it will clog your filter really quickly.
 
I figured that. Of course that is dependent on the size of the filter one uses, but I understand that to get what one wants filtered out, one needs a fine filter and a 'fine' filter will clog if the wine doesn't appear clear before filtering.

Thanks,
Paul
 
I figured that. Of course that is dependent on the size of the filter one uses, but I understand that to get what one wants filtered out, one needs a fine filter and a 'fine' filter will clog if the wine doesn't appear clear before filtering.

Thanks,
Paul

to filter a wine that has a high level of turbidity you would have to put it across multiple filter media in descending size in order to achieve the desired effect without absolutely stripping the flavor of your wine to nothing. At a home winemaking scale it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to even try as it would be time-consuming and expensive. I "might" do a nice polishing filter (.45 micron sometimes) on my home stuff once it's bulk aged and been racked at least twice within a year or so of settling. Trust and believe that when someone says "don't try to filter cloudy wine" its typically from this perspective. Not trying to put you down but sound advice is sound advice and not really worth questioning conventional wisdom unless you want to go down that road of filtering your cloudy wine 6-8 times across different filter porosities and ending up with a couple of gallons of flat, nasty-tasting wine. As always, and I say this with absolute earnest, patience and diligence is the greatest asset you can have when making wine of any kind.
 
I'm 65 years old, RachmaelBenAppelbaum, so I have understanding and appreciation of
sound advice is sound advice and not really worth questioning conventional wisdom unless you want to go down that road...
Nonetheless, following blindly without question and without explanation other than "I'm an expert. Do what I say", is both unwise and unnecessary. A simple explanation instead of an 'order' is not too difficult to provide. You provided an excellent, and sufficient one and I suspect it didn't 'cost' you much.

I've filtered a lot of 'stuff' in my life. I understand clogging filters. One of the 'things' I DON'T understand, is how one can significantly change the flavor of a wine by aggressive filtering. (I am not using "lack of understanding" as a euphemism for 'disbelief.) I can understand how one could filter out yeast, thereby reducing/removing a "yeasty taste", but beyond that, I don't understand the flavor removal. Of course I understand that removing something from something else changes the something else. It's just that changing wine taste negatively by filtering, surprises me. I assumed that the predominant flavoring of wine was not contained in particulates in suspension, but 'things' actually dissolved in the liquid that is wine.

Thank you for the explanation re filtering. Any more information you would care to take the time to impart regarding changing taste by filtering would be genuinely appreciated.

Paul
 
I never really noticed any taste difference in filtered vs. unfiltered wine. However, I also never filter a cloudy wine.

Now, you came here for advice, not orders. You can follow it or not, its entirely up to you. When your filter housing springs a leak from reduced flow and the pressure rises and sprays purple (or brownish) colored liquid all over your house, you'll suddenly remember that someone once gave you the advice not to do that.
 
Can't eliminate the post altogether, (what I posted here), so

'nuff said'

seems good.

Paul
 
Wine, any wine, is more than just alcohol, water, maybe some sugar etc. It's a veritable soup of complex organic compounds, most notably complex polyphenols. When you get your filter down to sterile levels (.45 micron) the porosity of the medium is so small that it actually strips out a good portion of said complex polyphenols and other compounds (hydrolyzed proteins and tannins) etc that give your wine flavor and aroma. I guess the short answer is that with patience and maybe some finings like casein, bentonite, gellecoll etc. you can have a clear beautiful wine without the need to filter at all. Imagine your carboys of wine as an alphabet soup of organic molecular compounds that are continually in flux, exchanging bonds and forming new compounds at a constant rate, hence why wine tastes different over periods of aging. Without getting too in-depth into it (you should see my old textbooks!) the finer the porosity of your filter, the higher the likelihood of pulling said compounds out of the wine and impacting the flavor. .45 micron porosity is small enough to remove bacteria, and bacteria are small enough to consume and metabolize larger organic compounds into other metabolites (e.g. malolactic fermentation) if that gives you a better idea of scale. Hope this helps. I wasn't meaning to impugn your life experience, but I often see a lot of hobby winemakers getting very carried away with topics of discussion that could be easily resolved by simple means.
 
Thanks! I hadn't really considered 0.45 micron filtering. Although most single-cell yeasts are fairly small at a few microns, that's relatively large compared to half a micron.

Filtering wine 'for taste' would be an interesting exercise. For a variety of reasons, I would do it with commercially available wine, not my home-made stuff. Hmm.... Wheels are turning.

I'm not particularly interested in 'crystal clear' wine. Mostly, I'm just curious about filtering wine, because I have never done it at the 'industrial' level. (That should not be construed to mean that I haven't "filtered".) I have not filtered wine any more 'seriously' than through a coffee filter in a funnel to take out the 'chunks'. The pectinase I added to this batch of wine took care of all the clarity 'issues' I had. At this stage, this wine is approaching 'crystal clear'. At least to my undiscerning eye.

Thanks again,
Paul
 
It's pretty crazy that a wine that appears crystal clear will still throw some sediment with aging, not enough to make a significant difference in the final product though. I just did a bochet at home in my freetime and when I slapped some labels on it I put "unfiltered" on it so anyone who picks up a bottle and sees a tiny bit of sediment can think that it's somehow special and unique because of its imperfection. Happy brewing.
 
:D

It's a good thing I do not seek 'perfection' in my brewing efforts! On a personal level, I've never made a batch of wine or beer that didn't have 'something' in the bottom of the bottles after a few months.

Paul
 
After a couple of days in this carboy it was clear that the fermentation was complete, so I bottled it today.
IMG_0370-sm_zpsrrfztzvp.jpg


It is interesting to me that it is 'rhubarb-colored' in the carboy, but yellow in the bottle, not just a lighter rhubarb. In other words, it didn't get lighter because there was less of it, it changed color. As I said, I find that interesting.

The bottles moved out to the garage to age at about 55 degrees F instead of 75 degrees in my basement. Don't plan on tasting for at least 6 months.

Paul
 
I'd call it "straw" coloured, I can still see the red in it. I can't believe I have to wait 6 months to get the rest of the story, but I suppose "brewer's patience" is a cultivated trait. Nice work!
 
Thanks, buMbLeB! Truth is, I have tasted it. (I think there would have been appropriate 'hue and cry' if I has tried to assert that I hadn't!) It's pretty 'hot'. Since I added the sugars in stages, I don't have a 'starting' specific gravity, so I don't have a good estimate of ABV %. It finished at about 0.990. I'd guess it's a strong 13%. I would be surprised to find out it is less, but frankly wouldn't be surprised a 16%.

In all honesty, I wish I hadn't added the ginger. It has a very significant influence on the taste. The reason I chose a rhubarb wine recipe that included ginger is because I like ginger. I like ginger ale. I like ginger beer. I like sliced, pickled ginger. I like grated ginger on just about any food. I don't like ginger in wine. I'm hoping that 6 to 12 month of aging will take the edge off, AND mellow the ginger taste. If not, I will likely mix it with some other fruit wine I make in the mean time. I do find it 'pretty' though. :D

"News at 11" - or in 6 months as the case may be.
Paul

PS - For those that might be interested in 'figuring' the ABV%, the SG after the FIRST addition of sugar was 1.135. TOTAL sugar added was 11 lbs. The total finished volume of wine was 5.5 US gallons, PLUS about a gallon of "stuff" from the transfers; predominantly wine, yeast, and floculent from pectinase. I did not add a drop of water between transfers from primary to secondary or any subsequent racking.

Paul
 
So it's been a bit more than 6 months - 7 months by my calculations from date of the last post in which I said I put it in bottles in the 55 degree garage - August 1, 2016.

When I put the bottles in the garage, I left one growler's worth unbottled. Last week I bottled that growler and tasted the wine. There had been some improvement, but not a great deal. It's "palatable" TO ME at this point as long as it is VERY cold. I have four 750 ml bottles in the refrigerator, and I'll have some each week until it's gone, but I don't intend to open any of the other bottles until August of '17. They will have been in the bottle at 55 degrees F for a year by then.

Honestly, I don't expect much improvement to MY palate. I think the ginger 'ruined' the wine for me. A shame really. This is the second batch of 'exotic' wine that I have made. The first was absolutely spectacular in 'look' and bouquet, and was undrinkable. This is VERY pretty, bouquet is good, and taste is something - at least to my palate - that "only a mother could love". I may have to stick to banana wine. I love that stuff.

If "you" have suggestions other than "wait" - which I am doing - for taking the edge off of this, I'm 'all ears'.

Paul
 
So it's been 13 months since bottling. The four bottles in the refer didn't "age well". They got poured down the drain. I just tasted the ones that have been kept at ~55 degrees F for about 14 months. It tastes "OK" - Nothing to write home about. I'll give it another 6 months.

There's a lesson for me to learn here, and I want to separate "lesson" from "gaining information" - AKA learning. One usually learns something every time they "make" something. That's not what I'm talking about with 'lesson'. Here's the lesson for me: "Don't make something because it 'sounds' good." let me explain.

I don't like "hoppy" beer. I don't like "dry" wine. I don't like "bitter" chocolate. Some of my friends accuse me of being part fly based on my 'sweet tooth'. In retrospect, I should have realized that ginger and rhubarb in a "white" wine would not be particularly 'wonderful' to my palate. I really like ginger, and I really like rhubarb. But in retrospect, ginger plus rhubarb doesn't really sound that good-tasting in wine. To my palate it is not. The ginger taste is relatively strong, and I don't like it. (It does NOT taste like ginger-ale.) I THINK I might 'like' rhubarb wine by itself, but more likely maybe it should be mixed with some other wine to temper the strong taste. While the ginger taste is obvious, the rhubarb FLAVOR is more subtle and not particularly "rhubarb pie".

So... I like banana wine. :D It's sweet and tastes very good the day it's finished 'brewing'. The only down side is that it doesn't last very long. I should probably stick to making the sweet stuff I like.

I'll report on the ginger/rhubarb again in 6 months.

Paul
 
Another way to look at it, not to malign what you've gathered, is that you would not have learned you didn't like it if you hadn't tried doing it in the first place. If you didn't make something because it sounds good, you wouldn't know how to improve upon things in the future. Winemaking is about spending long periods of time refining technique and recipe, in this case. If you like syrupy sweet wines, work on making it that way and try and see the results. See if framing the experience positively helps you become a better winemaker in your own eyes. There really is very little limit if this style is what you're looking for. Want rhubarb pie wine? Use a low attenuating yeast, arrest the fermentation at very high residual sugar levels with the addition of distilled spirits (use a pearson square to figure out your desired alcohol level vs how much alcohol to put in) and enjoy. Drink it young, let it age (probably be a cool experiment!). For perspective, I didn't even remember subbing this thread it's been so long since I replied, and for the record, I'm a professional winemaker and to be replying this time of year is very special since I'm working like a slave, but the mood is upon me. I hope that you can glean more from the experience you've had in aging a wine that you thought me be good, and I hope you the best of luck in future experiments.
 
It's been a year and a half since your question, Vicky66p, but 1) I didn't get the notification of the post, and more importantly, 2) I don't know the answer to your question.

I haven't been too interested in this wine, so it has been setting in the garage at about 55 degree F for a total of almost 3 years. I just tasted some of it again so I could report on its 'progress' here. To that end:

1) It tastes better than it did three years ago.

2) In fact, while I would not buy a wine that tasted like this one, I have tasted commercially produced wine that I liked less. The ginger is 'overwhelming' to my palate. I think, as I said above, that it was just a poor choice of ingredients/flavors to try to meld.

3) I don't think the wine making was problematic, rather, the choice of flavors was ill-advised for my taste preferences.

Also,

4) I tend to get 'focused' when I undertake to make some thing, and, as a result of that single-mindedness, can get myopic with regard to process. I think I was so focused on complete fermentation that I failed to pay attention to the details associated with taste and my personal taste preferences: namely "sweet". I was so focused on "completing" the fermentation, that I forgot to take into account that I wanted some sweetness left! In other words, I didn't want all of the sugar fermented into alcohol. I think if I had arrested the fermentation while there was still some sweetness left, I would like this wine better.

Still, the ginger is too strong for my tastes. Someone else might really like it. Like I said, I've tasted worse commercial wines. However, in my opinion, "commercially produced wine" is a fairly low bar.

Paul
 
I did backsweeten a bottle after the first 6 months of aging. I added about 3% by volume of undiluted white grape juice concentrate. That helped take the alcoholic edge off, and I assume it would work even better at this point. It also leads to a bit more effervescence, which I like. The truth be told, I'm a bit of a lazy 'vintner', and don't like to 'fool with' - during or after fermentation - the product. Not out of any sense of "purity", but rather plain ol' laziness. But... As you suggest, back-sweetening is a way to help the taste (to my palate anyway), and mute to some degree the urge to toss the lot down the drain.

Paul
 
I was re-reading this thread from the OP on and another thought occurred to me: Maybe I should have just 'stopped fiddling' when the fermentation stopped the first time. I did say in the OP; Tasting it, the must is clearly not completely fermented, which is supported by the SG reading. Maybe I should have just quit 'forcing' the fermentation. Almost makes me want to make another batch. This time however, no ginger for sure, and probably no citrus, AND probably only a gallon or two.

Paul
 
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