Looking for a grain to give "depth" to my session bitter

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badmajon

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Hi, I'm in the process of perfecting my own recipe session bitter and I am looking for something to give a bit of depth to my beer. My current recipe is as follows:

7 lbs Maris Otter
.5 lbs Biscuit
.5 lbs crystal 60

1 oz kent goldings (60)
1 oz fuggle (20)
1 oz citra (7)

1 oz citra dry hop

I love this ale. It usually works out to around 3.8%. This beer is almost perfect, but it needs some deeper flavors to balance the hops I think. I tried adding Crystal 90 in place of the 60, and I didn't notice much improvement. Next time, I'd like to add something else for depth, sweetness/body and maybe mash at 154. (I usually mash at 152)

Ideas?
 
Personally I would really enjoy munich or vienna in that recipe to add some maltiness.

I have also been experimenting with adding uncrushed dark grains to lend a wee bit of flavor so if I have any luck with that I will let you know!
 
3 lbs of black patent?

J/K lol.

Yoop's suggestion is good I think. Perhaps a tiny, tiny bit of chocolate malt might be interesting or some Crystal 120?
 
I've found adding a pound each of Munich and Vienna fills out my APA's. I imagine it would work for your bitter. I'm also a fan of half pound of wheat malt, gives a beer a nice full mouthfeel without being sweet.
 
smizak said:
I've found adding a pound each of Munich and Vienna fills out my APA's. I imagine it would work for your bitter. I'm also a fan of half pound of wheat malt, gives a beer a nice full mouthfeel without being sweet.
Click to expand...

+1 - I add about 1 lb of wheat malt to almost every beer I brew.
 
I'm in the same boat as you, except that I'm trying to do it with a special, rather than ordinary bitter.
I've tried the special roast that Yooper suggested. It made a small improvement, but it was very small.
I have tried modifying my water treatment to increase the chloride to sulfate ratio, replacing the special roast with a smaller amount of chocolate malt, and adding a small amount of torrified wheat to the grain bill.
It will take another 8 - 10 weeks to determine what effects these changes make, by which time I will have forgotten about this thread.
If you're interested in the results, send me a PM, and I'll be able to remember it.

-a.
 
what yeast are you using? That recipe should be quite workable. You might also want to back off on the bitterness a bit, or the late hopping by quite a bit to let more of the malt and yeast character come through. Carbonation can also really have a strong effect - keep it on the low side, or it will start to make things thin and sharp.
 
To keep the English character, try some amber malt. That should give you a
"deeper" malt character. Poke around a bit and you'll find instructions for roasting your own (I want to say Daniels mentions it in Designing Great Beers, but may be wrong).
 
Ya'll are crazy! Smoked malt, munich, black patent, citra hops in an english bitter??? :D

Seriously though, your recipe looks pretty good as is. If you want a little more flavor I would go with some amber malt or preferably some home toasted malt. Makes a HUGE difference. Also, use a good english yeast. As is, not s-04. WY1968, 1275, 1187.

85% MO, 5% crystal 40, 3% crystal 120, 7% amber/toasted malt and you got a very tasty, complex bitter. Good luck.
 
I use 12 oz of malanoidin, 12 oz of caramel 20 and a bit less base malt. I mash at 154. I love my bitter.
 
bierhaus15 said:
Ya'll are crazy! Smoked malt, munich, black patent, citra hops in an english bitter??? :D

Seriously though, your recipe looks pretty good as is. If you want a little more flavor I would go with some amber malt or preferably some home toasted malt. Makes a HUGE difference. Also, use a good english yeast. As is, not s-04. WY1968, 1275, 1187.

85% MO, 5% crystal 40, 3% crystal 120, 7% amber/toasted malt and you got a very tasty, complex bitter. Good luck.
Click to expand...

Actually, Black Patent is very common in genuine examples of british bitters
 
How about 7 lbs MO, 1/2 lb crystal 60, 1/2 lb crystal 120, 1/2 lb biscuit and 1/2 lb amber/toasted malt?

I use WLP005 btw.
 
Pappers said:
+1 - I add about 1 lb of wheat malt to almost every beer I brew.
Click to expand...

+1 as well. I thought I was the only person that did this to every beer they make. Although my next beer will be one of the first ones that I make it without. Just can't justify buying the wheat over here. When I get back stateside, it's wheat in everything again. Cheers my wheat-throwing brothers and sisters.

And to the OP; just throw a bit of roasted anything in there.
 
bierhaus15 said:
Ya'll are crazy! Smoked malt, munich, black patent, citra hops in an english bitter??? :D
Click to expand...

Hmm. I must've missed where the OP said it was an English Bitter. I don't think he did, especially as he is putting citra in HIS session bitter. I thought we were here to make good beer, not justify what we make to the style police. But seriously, I kid, I kid.
 
Okay after finally tasting what that recipe came up with I have to say I added too much hops for that body style. It's just what one of the posters mentioned, kind of thin and astringent. The dry hopping was way too much. That's why IPAs especially American ones tend to be sweeter with higher ABVs... now I know. Oh well, a "bad" homebrew is still better than 90% of anything on supermarket shelves.

Anyway, I think I'd change the recipe to get rid of the Citra and maybe add 1/2 oz fuggles at 20 mins and 1/2 oz at 5 to get more hop flavor.

7 lbs MO
.5 lb C60
.5 lb home toasted malt
.5 lb Biscuit
.2 (or a small, small bit) Black Patent for a red color

WLP005

Any suggestions for a malt to use for toasting?
 
badmajon said:
Okay after finally tasting what that recipe came up with I have to say I added too much hops for that body style. It's just what one of the posters mentioned, kind of thin and astringent. The dry hopping was way too much. That's why IPAs especially American ones tend to be sweeter with higher ABVs... now I know. Oh well, a "bad" homebrew is still better than 90% of anything on supermarket shelves.

Anyway, I think I'd change the recipe to get rid of the Citra and maybe add 1/2 oz fuggles at 20 mins and 1/2 oz at 5 to get more hop flavor.

7 lbs MO
.5 lb C60
.5 lb home toasted malt
.5 lb Biscuit
.2 (or a small, small bit) Black Patent for a red color

WLP005

Any suggestions for a malt to use for toasting?
Click to expand...

I'd toast some MO- that would really be great!
 
Hope this isn't too blatant a thread resurrection, but my .02c is this: use a good maltster. Belgian, German, and American beers can be made just fine with just about any malt, but a good British beer depends on the quality of its malt. I suggest Thomas Fawcett or Crisp; they floor malt, and it adds a great deal of complexity.
 
Since it has been resurected here is my process:

I use crisp MO, and for my English beers I toast between 3/4 lb to 1.5 lb of the MO depending on the grain bill, I find it gives a really nice flavor complexity to the finished beer.
 
How do you go about toasting? I have toasted the oats for my oatmeal stout in the past. I usually do 350F for about 15 min or so, or until I can just see it start turning light brown and get that "toasty" smell. What would be a good rule of thumb for toasting a base malt like MO?
 
I do 350° for about 18 minutes, you will get a nice toasty smell from the grain, I then vacuum pack the grain after cooling and use after a week of resting. I typically toast about 4 lb at a time to have on hand.
 
Crisp Brown Malt is FANTASTIC in milds and brown ales

"I do 350° for about 18 minutes, you will get a nice toasty smell from the grain, I then vacuum pack the grain after cooling and use after a week of resting. I typically toast about 4 lb at a time to have on hand."

I use same time/temp ratio toasting grains like Maris Otter, but I crush as soon as they cool and mash immediately. I wish I had a vacuum sealer... I've heard it really "sets" that toastiness in the grain.
 
azscoob,

What s the purpose behind the week rest? I have a vacuum sealer as well but anytime I have home roasted an ingredient, I usually just did it the night before brewing. I let it cool, then it goes back in the paper sack from the LHBS for crush and use the next morning.

Is there a "set" of the flavor and aroma that goes on as starrfish mentions or do you just do it for convenience sake (i.e., roasting the 4 pounds at once so that you have enough on hand for multiple batches?)
 
Several years back I had a beer from a buddy who used the toast and vacuum seal method, to me toasty flavor was very nice and pronounced, he claimed he got more toasty flavor this way...(at the time I chalked it up to each oven is different and he just got a stronger toast) I'd like to hear from azscoob on this too.

My thoughts would be fresher the better, but with a vacuum seal what isn't drawn off could conceivably saturate into the grain over a longer time making it stronger and not just on the surface of the grain. (kind of like a marinade)
 
I got a really grainy flavor in the beers I have made with freshly toasted grain, almost like there was hay in the beer but very subtle. I think it is from toasting the dry husks, I taste the grains and give them a sniff when freshly toasted and could pick up that same flavor I got from the beer. I then gave them a week to rest before using in a brew, the week old grain had a nice aroma almost like baked cookies, the week old grain also tasted a bit sweeter when I tried a few. the flavor depth in those beers was far better, it had a nice malty sweetness, with some oatmeal or peanut butter cookie like flavor, and a mellow aroma and flavor like a fresh dinner roll. toast some up and taste the cooled grain, smell the grain, then vacuum pack it and put it away for a week or so, reopen and try again, there should be a more noticable aroma and sweetness to it.
 
azscoob said:
I got a really grainy flavor in the beers I have made with freshly toasted grain, almost like there was hay in the beer but very subtle. I think it is from toasting the dry husks, I taste the grains and give them a sniff when freshly toasted and could pick up that same flavor I got from the beer. I then gave them a week to rest before using in a brew, the week old grain had a nice aroma almost like baked cookies, the week old grain also tasted a bit sweeter when I tried a few. the flavor depth in those beers was far better, it had a nice malty sweetness, with some oatmeal or peanut butter cookie like flavor, and a mellow aroma and flavor like a fresh dinner roll. toast some up and taste the cooled grain, smell the grain, then vacuum pack it and put it away for a week or so, reopen and try again, there should be a more noticable aroma and sweetness to it.
Click to expand...

I have a beer on deck that this would be perfect to test with. I will definitely try it. The beer calls for 7# MO, and .75# each of munich, victory and crystal.

I'm thinking about pulling a pound of the MO out for home toasting. I will try the week before + vacuum seal method. Does a pound sound about right? Any chance the crystal or other specialty malts would interfere with the results?

Now if the snow would just melt long enough to allow a trip to the LHBS.
 

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