90 Minute Boil?

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ILBMF

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I've been doing some batches of Vinny's Pliny the Elder recipe and I'm a little sick of the 90 minute boil time. Is there any benefit to a 90 minute boil other than better hop utilization? I'd like to make this beer and some similar, but use a 60 minute boil and course I'd need to make an adjustment to keep the IBU's up.

Any thoughts on this? Am I missing the boat on the benefits of a 90 minute boil time? I know some claim that FWH additions seem to make for a smoother bitterness and I am curious if this may be the case with a 90 minute boil too.
 
That only really matters if you use pils malt and even then it may not be necessary. There is very little increase in utilization beyond 60 min.

I agree with this. I dont know about the pils boil time becuase I have always done the 90 min boil with it but im sure its not that big of a deal. I do the Pliny the Elder quite often and only boil for for 60 min. I have done 90 before and never noticed a difference.
 
A lot of pro brewers do 90 minute boils. You also get more concentration of wort.

In theory you would increase your volume to account for the longer boil. The target is post boil OG so the starting volume will determine whether you hit that in 45 min, 60 min, 70 min, or any other value.

You can concentrate the boil by just starting with less pre boil volume.

I can see where a high gravity all grain recipe could produce a large volume that would probably require a longer boil to hit the design OG.
 
When you get the 60 minute adjusted recipe I'd be interested in seeing it. Haven't done Pliny yet, and I don't want to do a 90 minute boil because of the propane cost.
 
After reading this, I've moved to standard 90 minute boils, but don't add hops until the 60 minute mark.

http://bavarianbrewerytech.com/news/boilhops.htm

I don't know whether it's made any real difference in quality of the final product.

That is a nice article, I often cite it. Lower Ph with 90 minutes, driving off more oxygen/proteins. And you get a higher OG, nothing wrong with that. I do a minimum of 60 minutes, shooting for 75+ I often take a volume reading just before 20 minute left to see where I am at though my system is pretty dialed in. My first beer was also called a 90 Minute NAPA...so I kind of had to.
 
Does a 90 minute boil still apply to extract brewing???

We've only done 60 minute boils so far.....

But I'm wondering....

(1) Do we even need to put the extract in at the beginning of the boil?

(2) And does boiling an ounce of hops @60 min, @30 min, & @15 min.... really make much of a difference over boiling on ounce of hops @30 min, @20 min, and @15 min???
 
You definitely want to throw your extract in at the beginning and not at the end. The hop times are important as well since the boil is going to burn off your alpha acids. Those beginning hops at 60 minutes are used for bittering, where your hops that you are throwing in at 30 minutes are more for flavoring and your last ten minutes to flame out and eventually dry hopping are for the nose. I wouldn't try to condense your recipe, it will definitely not taste right.
 
Does a 90 minute boil still apply to extract brewing???

We've only done 60 minute boils so far.....

But I'm wondering....

(1) Do we even need to put the extract in at the beginning of the boil?

(2) And does boiling an ounce of hops @60 min, @30 min, & @15 min.... really make much of a difference over boiling on ounce of hops @30 min, @20 min, and @15 min???

Yes it does- you'll get more bitterness out of the 60 min additions (up to a point). Under normal circumstances, unless you're going for a super-hoppy flavor/aroma where hop bursting would be appropriate, you're going to want to bitter at 60 mins.

You definitely want to throw your extract in at the beginning and not at the end. The hop times are important as well since the boil is going to burn off your alpha acids. Those beginning hops at 60 minutes are used for bittering, where your hops that you are throwing in at 30 minutes are more for flavoring and your last ten minutes to flame out and eventually dry hopping are for the nose. I wouldn't try to condense your recipe, it will definitely not taste right.

I disagree. If you're brewing from a kit, it might be best to add the extract when it says to or you could throw bittering off a bit. But it seems some kits are now telling you to add some of the extract towards the end of the boil, and especially if its your own recipe there's a bunch of reasons why late extract additions are better, especially with LME- better hop utilization, lessening the frequent darkening that comes with LME, etc.
 
Does a 90 minute boil still apply to extract brewing???

We've only done 60 minute boils so far.....

But I'm wondering....

(1) Do we even need to put the extract in at the beginning of the boil?

(2) And does boiling an ounce of hops @60 min, @30 min, & @15 min.... really make much of a difference over boiling on ounce of hops @30 min, @20 min, and @15 min???

No, it wouldn't apply to extract brewing.

Some of the things that are important in AG brewing (a good "hot break", killing off lactobacillus, reducing the volume, reducing of volatiles) just don't apply to extract brewing. Extract has already been processed by the manufacturer and so the need for boiling has been eliminated.

The only reason to boil an extract batch would be for hops oils isomerization. Since very little gain of IBUs happens in a 90 minute boil vs a 60 minute boil, I can't think of any reason to boil an extract batch for more than 60 minutes. And in most cases, I can't think of any reason to boil the extract much if at all. I've had the best results with extract brewing by adding the majority of the extract at or near the end of the boil. That avoids maillard reactions and a "cooked extract" taste the finished beer.
 
Thanks so much, Yooper!!

I do believe that I owe you an entire 6-pack by now. :)

What is your opinion on hop additions during a 60-min or less extract brew??? Longer boil = Taste; Shorter boil = Aroma? Could a 30-min extract brew with 2-oz of hops be "better" than a 60-min extract brew with 2-oz of hops (all other things considered equal}??

I feel that a rolling boil for 30-45 minutes should produce just as good as one that boils for longer. But what do I know??
 
Could a 30-min extract brew with 2-oz of hops be "better" than a 60-min extract brew with 2-oz of hops (all other things considered equal}??

I feel that a rolling boil for 30-45 minutes should produce just as good as one that boils for longer. But what do I know??

Yes, it could be "better"! But not the same.

There is a technique called "hop bursting" that you might find very interesting! In hop bursting, ALL of the hops are added at 20 minutes or less left in the boil. That means using lots more hops, as you get far less bittering out of them, but it means far more hops flavor and aroma.

A traditional hop schedule is like this;

60 minutes (bittering)
15 minutes (flavor)
5 minutes (aroma)

And that works. You don't get every single last bit of possible bittering out of 60 minute additions, but you get the vast majority of possible IBUs. That's why there isn't much of a benefit in boiling the hops longer.

Fifteen minute additions are great for flavor- you get most of the great hop flavor out of that addition, and not so much bitterness. The aroma additions might not give you much, if any, bitterness, but instead it will give you great aroma because the hops oils haven't had a change to isomerize.

Using that information, and adding ALL of the hops later changes the beer by "hop bursting". You can see why it would have tons of hops flavor and aroma, since the hops didn't have a change to "turn into" bittering hops although there is bitterness present.

I did a hop-bursted APA recently with this hops schedule:

1.00 oz Amarillo [4.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [9.60 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 18.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [9.60 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs

That's all the hops- 5 ounces total, and IBUs of 42. It was a great beer!
 
Yes, it could be "better"! But not the same.

There is a technique called "hop bursting" that you might find very interesting! In hop bursting, ALL of the hops are added at 20 minutes or less left in the boil. That means using lots more hops, as you get far less bittering out of them, but it means far more hops flavor and aroma.

A traditional hop schedule is like this;

60 minutes (bittering)
15 minutes (flavor)
5 minutes (aroma)

And that works. You don't get every single last bit of possible bittering out of 60 minute additions, but you get the vast majority of possible IBUs. That's why there isn't much of a benefit in boiling the hops longer.

Fifteen minute additions are great for flavor- you get most of the great hop flavor out of that addition, and not so much bitterness. The aroma additions might not give you much, if any, bitterness, but instead it will give you great aroma because the hops oils haven't had a change to isomerize.

Using that information, and adding ALL of the hops later changes the beer by "hop bursting". You can see why it would have tons of hops flavor and aroma, since the hops didn't have a change to "turn into" bittering hops although there is bitterness present.

I did a hop-bursted APA recently with this hops schedule:

1.00 oz Amarillo [4.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 8.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [9.60 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 18.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [9.60 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [4.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs

That's all the hops- 5 ounces total, and IBUs of 42. It was a great beer!
:ban: :ban: :ban:

Just as I thought!!!

I've been throwing in 75% of our 2-oz of hops in the last 30 min. Perhaps 50% or so in the last 15 min. And they've been turning out pretty good.

I've actually been doing like 6 small additions. Just seems like it will present a strong flavor/aroma throughout the entire range.

I am, perhaps, not quite understanding the term "bitters", however. Isn't "bitter" just another flavor?? What separates 60-min bitters from 15-min flavors???
 
:ban: :ban: :ban:

Just as I thought!!!

I've been throwing in 75% of our 2-oz of hops in the last 30 min. Perhaps 50% or so in the last 15 min. And they've been turning out pretty good.

I've actually been doing like 6 small additions. Just seems like it will present a strong flavor/aroma throughout the entire range.

I am, perhaps, not quite understanding the term "bitters", however. Isn't "bitter" just another flavor?? What separates 60-min bitters from 15-min flavors???

Bitterness is a base flavor, like sweet or sour. It's a lot different than "piney" or "citrusy" or "tropical" or "spicy" flavors you get from various hops. The way the alpha acids isomerize in the boil, you will get bitterness from a longer boil, aroma from a very short or without a boil, and flavor from a short boil. Depending on the hop, you'll sometimes get a small amount of flavor or aroma from early bittering hop additions, and you'll get a small amount of bitterness from the later additions. But in general, a 60 minute boil for hops will essentially provide bitterness without hop flavor or aroma. There can be a slight difference in how that bitterness is perceived depending on the hop, but it's still not considered the same thing as "hop flavor". And like I said earlier, for a style like an IPA or a DIPA, or an APA, or any style where you want a good hop flavor and aroma focus, hop bursting will work perfectly. However, for other styles where you don't want hop flavor or aroma (Scottish ales are a perfect example), hop bursting is a bad idea, and you'll only want hops to be boiled for 60 minutes or longer. Also worth pointing out that for IPAs/DIPAs, in order to get the bitterness you need, it's going to take a LOT of hops in late additions. In the link I posted to the Basic Brewing Radio episode, the guy used almost 2 pounds of hops. And that can get very expensive.
 
I would say that 14 oz. hops in a 5 gallon batch should have been called "Imperial IPA"...regardless if the abv wasn't 8%+
 
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