Preparing Used Wine Barrel for Beer Solera

I'm in the process of planning out my solera project and had a quick question about how to prepare the barrel.

A little background info - it's a 59 gallon, used, French Oak red wine barrel. It was sitting empty for about 3 years. I brought it home and filled it with water to get it rehydrated and make sure there were no leaks. It's currently sitting outside on my porch in the 95F heat, so I'd like to get it in to my basement as soon as possible. I'm planning on getting it filled with beer within the next month. Also, for what it's worth, I'm going to do the primary in 32 gallon Brute garbage cans, so the beer that goes in to the barrel will have already gone thru at least 1 month of primary.

So here's the question - should I use a sulphur stick before I take it inside? Is sulphur necessary if I'm not planning on storing it for an extended amount of time? Or would it just be a good idea to kill off everything, then introduce my own bugs? Should I dump in 5 gallons of Starsan to get the surface sanitized? Should I just not worry about it and just take it inside and just get it filled as soon as I can?

I have a whole bunch of other solera questions, so thanks in advance for the help!

Google The Mad Fermentationist. He has done Solera ferments. He has a great site with alot of information about sours and the process.

Thanks for the tip. I spent last weekend reading thru his entire blog. So much great info. He didn't really get in to too much about preparing his barrel, since it sounded like it was already hydrated and didn't have too much time to pick up nasties.

I've read all sorts of other conflicting info about needing to sulphur, using starsan or just rinsing it out. Since mine has been sitting and needed to be totally rehydrated, I wasn't sure what the best course of action was. Thanks!

DM directly here to find out how he does his barrels. His username is OldSock

If it's been sitting dry for three years I don't know if it's a good option for beer. Do you know how it was stored or treated after it was emptied? I'd be concerned that it didn't get properly dried out or treated and you may have some nasty mold growth in the wood. Even if you can kill off the mold it might have left behind some nasty off flavors. If the barrel ended up with some water in it there might be some rot inside.

I believe Wild Ales has a section in the back about preparing a barrel.

Thanks for the advice. The guy I bought them from said he orders a semi truck full and stores them in a temp controlled warehouse, but who knows what they went thru before they got to him. They hydrated quickly and have no big leaks. They smell great - tons of oak, red wine and a little vinegar. The vinegar smell pretty much went away after they were rinsed. Based on some additional research it seems best to sulphur them, just to kill off as much as possible.

Other than taking the head off, is there any good way to look down inside them to check for mold? I'd be afraid I'd never get it to seal right again if I started taking it apart.

Thanks again for the advice! I'll have to go back thru that book again.

cadillacandy said:

Thanks for the advice. The guy I bought them from said he orders a semi truck full and stores them in a temp controlled warehouse, but who knows what they went thru before they got to him. They hydrated quickly and have no big leaks. They smell great - tons of oak, red wine and a little vinegar. The vinegar smell pretty much went away after they were rinsed. Based on some additional research it seems best to sulphur them, just to kill off as much as possible.

Other than taking the head off, is there any good way to look down inside them to check for mold? I'd be afraid I'd never get it to seal right again if I started taking it apart.

Thanks again for the advice! I'll have to go back thru that book again.

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I'd personally take the head off to see. I just finished wild brews and it is pretty thorough on the cleaning process. I've never inspected a barrel, but (if you actually have one -- I dont) you could hang one of those ice fishing cameras down the hole while trying to light the inside enough to see something.

Sorry I cannot be much help.

Vinegar smell, even if it rinses out, usually means actobacteria are present. You won't be able to kill it off and if there is alot of it you might end up with malt vinegar instead of beer.

Hmmm... I don't like the sound of 60 gallons of malt vinegar. I need to get a second nose over here to take a sniff and see if they can detect vinegar. I just opened a bottle of cabernet sauvigion to add to some oak chips for another batch, and the smells are pretty close (wine and barrels).

Thanks again for all the advice!

Even if you wash out the vinegar smell that doesn't mean the acetobacter is gone.

Acetobacter is everywhere, like lacto and numerous other groups of bacteria, so it's not the end of the world if it's there. It probably got there just by nature of being exposed during emptying and sitting full of oxygen. Burning sulfur inside would probably take care of it.

I would NOT use that barrel. I used a small 5 gallon barrel that sat empty for a couple years just like the one you are thinking of using. I swelled it, and it was water tight. I built a steamer and steam cleaned the barrel. I thought it would be OK to use, but I recently tasted the beer inside and it is way too acetic after just ~4 months. I wouldn't trust any barrel that has sat empty that long. It may hold water, but I don't believe that it sufficiently blocks O2 permeation. The fact your barrel smelled of vinegar means that acetobacter is rampant inside. Whatever you put in there now will almost certainly turn to vinegar.

You are going to be brewing 60 gallons, and waiting at least a year to have a finished product. It just doesnt make sense to start with such a risky factor that would ruin all that work.

It sounds like a rain barrel to me. I wouldn't waste time and beer on it.

Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback.

So let's say I really, really wanted to try to use these barrels, which I do. What other some other extreme measures I could take to try to sanitize them? I've high pressure rinsed with warm water and have sulphur-sticked them. They are holding water without problem. I've heard/read about using caustic soda as a next step. Has anyone gone down that path? I know commercial operations use sharpened chains to flail the inside, but I don't really have means to do that. I also have a couple pounds of sodium metabisulphate and potassium sorbate as well to do something similar to the sulphur sticks if that's another choice.

What about checking it frequently and then drawing all the liquid from the barrel when it's soured enough - instead of using it as a solera?

I would ask myself this simple question: How much is a new used barrel vs. the amount of work to put into your barrel and the potential for a completely messed up batch of beer? When I picked out my barrel, I spent an afternoon smelling freshly emptied barrels and picked the one I wanted. It was a really fun day.

The problem with bugs is they live deep in the wood...not just the surface. They live far enough in that chemicals won't reach them. Used barrels are usually reasonable. You are going to have alot of money in ingredients. Do you want to screw all that work up over a hundred dollar barrel?

cadillacandy said:

Thanks guys. I appreciate the feedback.

So let's say I really, really wanted to try to use these barrels, which I do. What other some other extreme measures I could take to try to sanitize them? I've high pressure rinsed with warm water and have sulphur-sticked them. They are holding water without problem. I've heard/read about using caustic soda as a next step. Has anyone gone down that path? I know commercial operations use sharpened chains to flail the inside, but I don't really have means to do that. I also have a couple pounds of sodium metabisulphate and potassium sorbate as well to do something similar to the sulphur sticks if that's another choice.

What about checking it frequently and then drawing all the liquid from the barrel when it's soured enough - instead of using it as a solera?

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Stay away from running caustic because you will strip the flavors from the wood. I would suggest storing them with citric acid AND metabisulfite until use for a minimum of a week or two. Use around 1lb of citric and 1/2 of metabisulfite. Drain completely before use but do not rinse....

If you decide to use caustic, stay under 1% concentration but really without any type of mechanical action through some sort of sprayer or high preassure jetter- this method isn't going to do squat.

If the barrel is heavily contaminated with acetobacter, the only way to try to insure you have a clean barrel is to take a swab and culture it or place the swab in a small amount of sterile wort and see if there is any activity. If the wort ferments into vinegar then you know not to use the barrel...

scinerd3000 said:

If the barrel is heavily contaminated with acetobacter, the only way to try to insure you have a clean barrel is to take a swab and culture it or place the swab in a small amount of sterile wort and see if there is any activity. If the wort ferments into vinegar then you know not to use the barrel...

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I really like the sound of this.

Thanks again for the replies everyone. I really appreciate the input. You guys/gals have kept me from doing stupid things more times than I can count!

To culture vinegar don't you have to have alcohol? Vinegar bugs "ferment" the alcohol. If you put it in wort it probably won't do anything. Pop open a beer, infect the beer and put a foil cap on it. That would be how I'd test it.

levifunk said:

I would NOT use that barrel. I used a small 5 gallon barrel that sat empty for a couple years just like the one you are thinking of using. I swelled it, and it was water tight. I built a steamer and steam cleaned the barrel. I thought it would be OK to use, but I recently tasted the beer inside and it is way too acetic after just ~4 months. I wouldn't trust any barrel that has sat empty that long. It may hold water, but I don't believe that it sufficiently blocks O2 permeation. The fact your barrel smelled of vinegar means that acetobacter is rampant inside. Whatever you put in there now will almost certainly turn to vinegar.

You are going to be brewing 60 gallons, and waiting at least a year to have a finished product. It just doesnt make sense to start with such a risky factor that would ruin all that work.

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I'm not a barrel expert, but from what I've read those small 5 gal barrels normally have pretty thin staves on them which allow a lot of O2 to permeate through the wood - this could be the cause of your acetic problem after 4 months. 60 gal barrels should have thicker staves and there is less overall exposure to the wood which will reduce the O2 levels in the barrel.

Not saying the OP's old barrel is OK to use, I don't know. But you can't really compare the performance of a 5 gal barrel to a 60 gallon barrel.

bribo179 said:

To culture vinegar don't you have to have alcohol? Vinegar bugs "ferment" the alcohol. If you put it in wort it probably won't do anything. Pop open a beer, infect the beer and put a foil cap on it. That would be how I'd test it.

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You are correct, I mispoke. They do take ethanol to make vinegar so it would have to be either a beer or some wort with ethanol added (such as from vodka etc). Wort agar is fairly simple to make for culturing purposes and Universal Beer Agar UBA is what you would need to make...essentially wort agar with some ethanol added. Midwest has it for sale pretty cheap..
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/universal-beer-agar.html

Sorry for the confusion- I hope this helps.

bigljd said:

I'm not a barrel expert, but from what I've read those small 5 gal barrels normally have pretty thin staves on them which allow a lot of O2 to permeate through the wood - this could be the cause of your acetic problem after 4 months. 60 gal barrels should have thicker staves and there is less overall exposure to the wood which will reduce the O2 levels in the barrel.

Not saying the OP's old barrel is OK to use, I don't know. But you can't really compare the performance of a 5 gal barrel to a 60 gallon barrel.

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I waxed the outside of the 5 gallon barrel to have comparable O2 permeation as a 60 gallon.
http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2012/02/paraffin-waxing-barrel.html

OP's barrel has sat empty for 3 years. That 5 gallon barrel sat empty for 2 years. I cleaned that barrel better than OP did his. I've got to imagine its an acetobacter love-nest inside.

Instead of starting a new thread, I figured I'd just add to this one - what do you guys think about this barrel - http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Gallons-...=661841723024660678&pid=100015&prg=1006&rk=1& ?

Also, I've had 3 people take a sniff at my barrels - the one is junk. So gross that mold came pouring out when I dumped it. The other one is looking and smelling good. No one has detected vinegar, even after they sniffed and then I mentioned it. I pressure washed it, sulphered it and now have 59 gallons of citric acid solution sitting in it. I haven't taken a culture yet, but that is my next step just to make sure.

And again, thanks for all the advice. Levi- your idea of waxing your barrel is great. I'll be using it at some point, I'm sure.

If you have the ability to fill a 60 gallon barrel, I'd stick to that. Those 30 gallon ones look fine, but they are twice the price for half the volume.

I took a culture from the "better" barrel using a damp cotton swab and put it in a mason jar with some beer and threw a lid on it. It's been sitting for about 3 days. If the barrel is rampant with acebacetor, how long will it take before I start to notice vinegar? Is there anything else I should do? I know acebacetor like oxygen. Should I open the lid to let more oxygen in, or just let it go? Are there any visible signs? Thanks again everyone!

Quick update. My culture never picked up acetobacter.

I fermented 60 gallons of "Landers Fred" in 32 gallon, food-safe garbage cans over the course of a couple of weeks and have since filled the barrel to the top.

I used a sulfur stick in the barrel for a week, then filled it with a solution of water and citric acid for 2 weeks. The barrel decided to start leaking right before I was ready to move it, so I used a blow torch and some wax to seal it up. No leaks since.

It has a very nice pellicle going now. No vinegar at all.

It's only been in the barrel for about 1.5 months, so I'm hoping that I got lucky and it'll turn out well. If not, if anyone needs malt vinegar, let me know!

Thanks to everyone for the advice. It was all taken to heart and considered deeply before I decided to go for it.

Keep a close eye on it. Hopefully O2 permeation is low and aceto doesn't proliferate. The second you start tasting it though....bottle it up. Fortunately for you, flander's red is a style that can take a little acetic acid.

levifunk said:

Keep a close eye on it. Hopefully O2 permeation is low and aceto doesn't proliferate. The second you start tasting it though....bottle it up. Fortunately for you, flander's red is a style that can take a little acetic acid.

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How often should I taste it?

I don't know, you've got plenty of it, so no harm in taking a sip every 2-3 weeks.

Wanted to give another update on my barrel project. The beer has been in the barrel for a little over 4 months. I pulled off a sample and it's coming along nicely. No vinegar at all. Certainly not anywhere close to as sour as I hope it will be in a year, but it's not bad. It's down to 1.009 from 1.013 when it went in to the barrel 4 months ago.

I brewed another 5 gallon batch and have it in a keg next to the barrel that I'll use to top it off. It's amazing how much the level has dropped in just 4 months.

Thanks again for all the advice everyone!

If by now you haven't tasted any vinegar like acetic acid, I *hope* you are in the clear. It sounds like your barrel is doing a good job keeping O2 permeation low. Although, your evaporation rate may be of concern?

Either way, keep a close eye on it.

From my experience with the lambic barrels, it doesn't really get all that sour until ~8 months maybe. For the first 3-4 months, it basically tastes like a berliner weiss.

Thanks Levi! I've been checking on it every couple of weeks. I agree about the evaporation/absorption rate. I'm guessing that the barrel wasn't quite as hydrated as I thought. I have it sitting in my basement, so the relative humidity is probably a little on the high side (old basement with sandstone walls). We're probably looking at about 2 gallons in 4.5 months of evaporation/absorption.

I read that I should account for about 5 gallons per year of evaporation, what's your experience Levi?

Thanks again!

I haven't measured the amount of evaporation. Also, I "sample" fairly often

I think I am going to top off my first barrel with wort from a new batch this January. I'd like to keep the head space low, and I think you are smart for doing the same.

I've been trying to keep my samples to a "minimum" - which is hard to do. I didn't have the foresight to drill a hole in the head and use a stainless nail to keep it plugged, so I have to pull the bung to draw a sample. Every time I sample, I do purge it with c02, so hopefully I'm not introducing too much oxygen. I try to do minimal damage to the pellicle too.

Do you think I could get away with drilling a tiny hole higher up on the head after I pull out my first 15 gallons?

If you are just drilling a hole for a SS nail, you can drill it when its full. I did. Not a problem at all.

levifunk said:

If you are just drilling a hole for a SS nail, you can drill it when its full. I did. Not a problem at all.

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Awesome. Now to find a nail and a drill bit. Where did you get your nail, what size nail and drill bit? The last thing I want to do drill a hole and have the nail not fit. I should probably do a test fit on a board before I start drilling, eh?

cadillacandy said:

Awesome. Now to find a nail and a drill bit. Where did you get your nail, what size nail and drill bit? The last thing I want to do drill a hole and have the nail not fit. I should probably do a test fit on a board before I start drilling, eh?

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http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2012/02/installing-sample-port.html

levifunk said:

http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2012/02/installing-sample-port.html

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Thanks! I knew I read about it somewhere during my research!

Very informative thread. Thanks. I am thinking of pulling the trigger on a used 59 gallon wine barrel (cabernet sauvignon). It has been empty for 3 months. I will have to go and inspect but this thread answered a lot of the questions that I had swirling around in my head.

I pulled 4 gallons for blending and brought it to our BJCP study group. No acetic character at all. Lots of oak though and it's a little too lactic sour. With a little blending it can easily be a 35+ point beer.

Crayfish said:

Very informative thread. Thanks. I am thinking of pulling the trigger on a used 59 gallon wine barrel (cabernet sauvignon). It has been empty for 3 months. I will have to go and inspect but this thread answered a lot of the questions that I had swirling around in my head.

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Glad it's been helpful. Fire away with any questions.