Breaking the law because of a poorly written or interpreted statute is a far different animal than advocating breaking a law when you are fully cognizant of the law.
Legal Questions - Large Brew
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Breaking the law because of a poorly written or interpreted statute is a far different animal than advocating breaking a law when you are fully cognizant of the law.
thasnazzle
Well-Known Member
Something to take into account might be this: how likely are these laws to be enforced? If it's a private-ish party, it seems like the risk would be almost zero.
disclaimer: nothing i say should be taken as legal advice. i am not a licensed attorney. follow this at your own risk.
disclaimer: nothing i say should be taken as legal advice. i am not a licensed attorney. follow this at your own risk.
Agreed! But here is an example of the poorly written law pertaining to homebrewing in CA..."You are allowed to remove beer from your home for competitions, tastings and judgings"
Ok......so what constitutes a competition, tasting, or judging? I know recently in the Bay Area a group of homebrewers had a tasting where people paid 20 bucks each to "judge" the beers for a "competition". All the money was donated to charity. The point is that it is questionable thus hard to enforce.
step
Well-Known Member
I told myself not to but...
Nothing irritates me more than a post that says "I am about to do something sketchy... what do you think?"
I mean really?!?! If you want to do something that you feel is a bit on the shady side than don't come on the internet and ask "should I do this?" If I was to have a personal conversation on this topic I would say go for it!!! Of course I have to temper that with... follow your local laws. Seriously though, if you have some sort of moral issue with a choice you are about to make and you come on the internet to ask its opinion then you are of low personal strength. If you believe in doing something... do it!!! Don't ask a bunch of strangers what they think.
End Rant
Nothing irritates me more than a post that says "I am about to do something sketchy... what do you think?"
I mean really?!?! If you want to do something that you feel is a bit on the shady side than don't come on the internet and ask "should I do this?" If I was to have a personal conversation on this topic I would say go for it!!! Of course I have to temper that with... follow your local laws. Seriously though, if you have some sort of moral issue with a choice you are about to make and you come on the internet to ask its opinion then you are of low personal strength. If you believe in doing something... do it!!! Don't ask a bunch of strangers what they think.
End Rant
udt89
Well-Known Member
Did someone answer this......
If he brews and donates its ok? With no involvement from said third party?
If he brews and donates its ok? With no involvement from said third party?
Calichusetts
Well-Known Member
I told myself not to but...
Nothing irritates me more than a post that says "I am about to do something sketchy... what do you think?"
I mean really?!?! If you want to do something that you feel is a bit on the shady side than don't come on the internet and ask "should I do this?" If I was to have a personal conversation on this topic I would say go for it!!! Of course I have to temper that with... follow your local laws. Seriously though, if you have some sort of moral issue with a choice you are about to make and you come on the internet to ask its opinion then you are of low personal strength. If you believe in doing something... do it!!! Don't ask a bunch of strangers what they think.
End Rant
+1
Why isn't this closed yet?
prrriiide
Well-Known Member
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Ironically I have a fast car and zero tickets
That's what I bring up as well. People get all bent out of shape about brewing legalities, yet I know all of those people break other laws. I suppose it's just the hypocrisy that gets to me. Yes, it is illegal, and there is no way around that. It's been established in 100 threads. Like you said, speeding is also illegal. If you go 1mph over the speed limit, a cop isn't going to pull you over. There is a limit so people are driving crazy fast.
Yeah, it's all illegal, but at the same time, 80 in a 70 won't get you Federal charges and the IRS up your backside with an accountant and a microscope. Unless you are transporting homebrew in a Maserati you clearly can't afford...
Will it be worth it if you get caught? Because if you do, you will NEVER get to legally open a microbrewery. They ask questions like that in the TTB questionnaire, you know. If you get busted for something like that, you can't even have your name associated with any brewing operations.
You should consult an experienced attorney licensed in the appropriate jurisdiction or, at the very least, ask for an interpretation from your local alcoholic beverage regulatory agency. You should not rely on any statements or any inferences from statements made in this forum to form judgments on the legality of your actions.
Lucky_Chicken
Well-Known Member
TTB... do you work there? or is that just a coincidence? either way +1
I didn't see a concise answer to this particular situation: If a friend comes to you having already bought the ingredients, can you brew the batch and give it back (for free)? Also, what if you only gave half of it back?
zeg
Well-Known Member
If giving out beer brewed without a license is legal, then this might be ok.
However, in the circumstances described, he is going to have an extremely hard time convincing anyone that this is a true description of events. Courts don't typically look forgivingly upon those who try to skirt around laws this way. They're just not going to buy it (nor would any of the "give out party favors" type charades fool anyone).
If you're going to break this law, you might as well just do it outright and save a lot of trouble trying to hide it. Haven't we all learned the lesson that it's not the crime that gets you in the big trouble, it's the cover-up?
HopHeadGrady
Well-Known Member
Yer' gonna do 10 years in the hole for this!
Its important to understand the liquor laws of your area. Up here this would be ok as long at the bottles weren't being served at the event as that would violate the liquor permit. If sealed bottles are given away and not consumed at the event, then that is fine. That being said its quite common here at weddings, stags and smaller events etc to give away home brewed wine, serve home brew beer etc too. No one enforces that here.
We enforce the drunks on the road, and tax the bejesus out of beer etc. A lot of people up here brew for the cost saving. You certainly save money homebrewing here.
A case of 12 heineken is 25$ now. But quebec is just 20 min away and they have a Beer King over the bridge that has good deals.
Its important to understand the liquor laws of your area. Up here this would be ok as long at the bottles weren't being served at the event as that would violate the liquor permit. If sealed bottles are given away and not consumed at the event, then that is fine. That being said its quite common here at weddings, stags and smaller events etc to give away home brewed wine, serve home brew beer etc too. No one enforces that here.
We enforce the drunks on the road, and tax the bejesus out of beer etc. A lot of people up here brew for the cost saving. You certainly save money homebrewing here.
A case of 12 heineken is 25$ now. But quebec is just 20 min away and they have a Beer King over the bridge that has good deals.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
As usual in these threads, lots of inaccurate information and inaccurate inferences.
I think bottom line is that the laws regarding homebrewing were written so that someone can not legally sell their beer to a bar, restaurant, store, etc.... essentially be an unlicensed brewery. It seems that is the interpretation of TTB, ABC, and local law enforcement as I still can't find any record of a homebrewer getting in trouble for doing something like the OP wants to do.
As a sidenote it got me thinking about something....it seems that any mention of the exchange of money and homebrew is taboo. Why is it ok for a competition to charge money to enter, not mention providing homebrew? I realize the law allows competitions but where does it say that it is okay to collect money? Wouldn't that be an exchange of money and thus be illegal? Just wondering......
As a sidenote it got me thinking about something....it seems that any mention of the exchange of money and homebrew is taboo. Why is it ok for a competition to charge money to enter, not mention providing homebrew? I realize the law allows competitions but where does it say that it is okay to collect money? Wouldn't that be an exchange of money and thus be illegal? Just wondering......
BrewKnurd
Well-Known Member
Phunhog said:
but the entrant provides both the beer and the money, so where's the exchange?
true.....I guess there really isn't an exchange.
Ok so here is what you do....hold a contest where homebrewers bring beer to be judged. People pay to have the right to be "judges". Cash prizes are given away to the "winners". I don't think it is illegal to award cash prizes in a competition.
Just kidding......
..........well maybe
Boerderij_Kabouter
Well-Known Member
Step one if you are worried about getting in trouble; do not post on a public forum.
That said, who is going to track you down and care? Just brew the beer, give it away, and if the hosts want to give you some gifts in a few weeks don't go bragging about it to the world and your local IRS agent.
Personally, I do not worry about this kind of thing. The likelihood of getting in trouble for a once off event are tiny and not a big deal IMO.
That said, who is going to track you down and care? Just brew the beer, give it away, and if the hosts want to give you some gifts in a few weeks don't go bragging about it to the world and your local IRS agent.
Personally, I do not worry about this kind of thing. The likelihood of getting in trouble for a once off event are tiny and not a big deal IMO.
griffonage
Member
**Please read**
What so many ppl fail to mention when talking about these laws is the "perspective" of the government.
The reason there are NO loopholes is because the government wants its tax money. Period.
The reason there will never be an exception is due to Alcohol taxes.
Is you pay your license fees and become a Microbrewery you get the privilege of having your brews subject to tax, and that is what the government is satisfied with. Anything less is an evasion of taxes....from the governments perspective.
What so many ppl fail to mention when talking about these laws is the "perspective" of the government.
The reason there are NO loopholes is because the government wants its tax money. Period.
The reason there will never be an exception is due to Alcohol taxes.
Is you pay your license fees and become a Microbrewery you get the privilege of having your brews subject to tax, and that is what the government is satisfied with. Anything less is an evasion of taxes....from the governments perspective.
dedndcrusr
Member
This.
One of the local homebrew shops was organizing a small craft-beer festival and invited homebrewers to bring and share their beer as well. Several months before the event the organizers contacted the state alcoholic beverages agency to enquire about any legal issues. They were given the okay, but then a few days before the event, they were contacted an informed that since there was a small admission fee, the homebrewers would not be allowed to bring beer. The state felt like it would be considered payment in exchange for their homebrew even though the homebrewers would not have received any of the money.
So even though it may suck, my advice would be to contact your state agency and ask them. Whatever they say is what I would do. You dont want to screw up any future plans to open a brewery.
Special Hops
Well-Known Member
How the hell is paying to attend an event and bringing homebrew considered getting payment for beer?
PollardsVision
Active Member
I think he was saying non-homebrewer guests paid to attend the Craft Beer Festival, in which homebrewers would also be sharing their beer (but not receiving any money).
That is exactly what I did last year....poured my homebrew at a beer festival. You can read about that here...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/pinnacle-my-homebrewing-experience-269499/
Now here comes the interesting part. At the beer festival we sold T-shirts with our logo on them. We did quite well..made over 1K gross in sales!! It basically paid for all the beer, a new jockey box, a banner, and still had 100dollars profit. I did contact the local ABC office and they said they don't care that I sell shirts as long as I don't sell/trade/barter beer. And yes I do pay state sales tax on the sales of the shirts....
dedndcrusr
Member
Yeah, that's what I meant. Maybe should have said cover charge rather than admission fee.
Phunhog - Glad to see your state isn't stifling your ability to share homebrew with a larger audience.
