2qt./LB Mash...

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I need to reconfirm, but I've been playing with water:grain ratios and lost about 5% (brewhouse) as well (93 to 88)

This is basically what I was explaining to Bobby. The bump you are getting from conversion efficiency is much less than the reduction in lauter efficiency that you get from not having as much sparge water. As a result your efficiency suffers. Only brewers with low efficiencies should see decent efficiency benefits from going to a thin mash.

Bobby, even though it may not come through as that I always greatly appreciate when brewers report experiences that don’t match other brewer’s experiences. It makes me think about what I’m saying and a sound theory should be able to cover all these experiences. For all who want to go really deep into this subject of figuring out where efficiency is lost, have a look at this: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency#Example:_Making_sense_of_the_numbers . It’s an example on how to dissect your efficiency into the kettle (or even into the fermenter if you measure the volume of trub left in the kettle). If you do that for a thick vs. thin mash experiment you may see the changes in conversion and lauter efficiency and how they are affected by the mash thickness.

Thin mashing is as little a fix-all as crushing finer or mashing longer is.

OPINION: I think that a certain amount of efficiency needs to be lost during the lauter for good beer sake. Sparging always produces less quality wort than the first wort and I want to minimize the amount of wort gained from sparging as much as reasonable. As a result I actually prefer using more strike water than sparge water in most cases. I feel that a reasonable amount of sacrifice is 10-15% when batch sparging, which is what you get when you use 1 sparge for beers between 11 and 15P and 2 sparges for beers above 16P. Note that this is lauter efficiency and it not necessarily translates into 10-15% loss of efficiency into the kettle. No experiments have been done by myself to demonstrate that reducing the lauter losses below 10% will actually yield an inferior beer.

Kai



 
Kaiser,
I had a question on that example in your Troubleshooting Efficiency page so I'll ask it here:

In the beginning you say that there are unconverted starches in the spent grain and say; “these 5% are still in the spent grain” …but then towards the end you say that “11% remained in the spent grain”. So I’m a bit confused. Is this 11% purely in the liquid that is still absorbed by the spent grain?

So is there 5% (which is starch) that "never got out of the individual grains" and then another 11% (which is sugar) that “never got out of the grain bed”?

Another question I had was about the addition of cold water to the spent grain to determine what was left behind. Did you use cold water specifically to keep those two numbers above separate? That is, you wanted to ONLY remove any residual sugars left in the grain bed but NOT convert any of that 5% of unconverted starch?

I think I may have answered my own question here…but I’ll ask anyway just in case I’m wrong.:)
 
So is there 5% (which is starch) that "never got out of the individual grains" and then another 11% (which is sugar) that “never got out of the grain bed”?


Yes, that’s what I mean and I’ll be more clearly in the article.

Another question I had was about the addition of cold water to the spent grain to determine what was left behind. Did you use cold water specifically to keep those two numbers above separate? That is, you wanted to ONLY remove any residual sugars left in the grain bed but NOT convert any of that 5% of unconverted starch?


The water can be any temperature. Cold water is easier b/c that’s what comes out of the tap. But thinking of it, you are correct that there is a benefit in not counting the unconverted starch as it was included in an earlier measurement and should not be included in a subsequent measurement.

Another test that I read about actually boils a sample of the spent grain to gelatinize all the starch and then adds a-amylase after cooling it down. This way you can also test how much unconverted starch was left in the grain. This is a little more robust than my method of measuring the FW gravity b/c it eliminates the effect of the actual extract potential of the grain but it is much more involved and we don’t need the accuracy that would be gained with this test.

Kai
 
I plan on using 2qt/LB of grain on my first Lager attempt tonight but that is because I am doing a single decoction and will be taking a 1/3 out to boil.

Hope it goes well.
 
This is quite the interesting topic considering I am quite efficiency minded (I always look for ways to make everything better.... its a downfall in some cases and a blessing in other situations.)

Either way, I would have thought there would have been some crazy calculations listed out in this thread about absolute potential of extracted sugars of "x"lbs of grain vs. actual amount of extracted sugars. Or some sort of volumetric efficiency degradation on a linear scale or chart. etc.

One of the things about AG brewing that I do not comprehend is why is it stated and accepted in many circles that a 75% efficiency rate is a really good target and there is really no need to try to get any higher (Jamil), but then there are all of you guys shooting for 90's and while there are some dissenters in the bunch and others bickering about this that or the other thing, you'd think that after over 2000 years of doing this, we would have figured out what is best by now.

But then I have to remind myself that there isn't always a "best" and that there is a grey area in many things. I would think that this method would help ME in MY brewing because I usually undershoot my OG with my setup. Not by miles, but by like a half a point. Then again, on my last brew, cramming 13.5qts of water and 12lbs 4oz of grain in a 5gal SS pot (stovetop AG method), there was about 1/4" of room before the top of the pot was reached with my mash. I calculated about 67% brewhouse eff on this one. It looked like I was making enough oatmeal to feed a batallion, and I couldn't help but thinking that at just north of 1qt/lb of grain, it was very "dry" in there. I would like to contribute to this notion, and once I get a larger pot or a cooler for a MLT (finally) I will try to go to 2qt/lb and see what happens.

Thanks Pol :)
 
I think trying to qualify a realistic threshold between wort quality and efficiency is almost impossible to do unless you were insanely motivated to do so. It would involve brewing several otherwise identical batches and deriving the wort from mashes of varying efficiency. Of course, the OG would have to remain the same along with every thing else, but the lauter efficency (likely by differing sparge volumes) would have to change. After an identical fermentation, you'd have to blind taste the samples and rate them in order.

I don't have any problem with Kai's assertions because they make sense. I have been concerned with pulling 92% Mash/Lauter efficiency. I have been only using a single bulk sparge on OG targets of 1.045 or less and assuming 80% efficiency instead. I don't know for sure if my wort quality has improved but it's only a dollar more worth of grain to try it out for a while.
 
would have thought there would have been some crazy calculations listed out in this thread about absolute potential of extracted sugars of "x"lbs of grain vs. actual amount of extracted sugars. Or some sort of volumetric efficiency degradation on a linear scale or chart. etc.


If you want we can generate crazy data as well ;)

One of the things about AG brewing that I do not comprehend is why is it stated and accepted in many circles that a 75% efficiency rate is a really good target and there is really no need to try to get any higher (Jamil), but then there are all of you guys shooting for 90's and while there are some dissenters in the bunch and others bickering about this that or the other thing, you'd think that after over 2000 years of doing this, we would have figured out what is best by now.


That’s the thing with brewing. Everyone has his/her own opinion and their own process which is influenced by their experiences and what they have heard. Jamil is one voice (although a quite large and well respected one) but he is not very strong on the technical side of brewing. 75% is a good efficiency if it comes from a high conversion efficiency and a low lauter efficiency. The latter means that sparging was kept to a minium. I may say that 80-85% is better as you use your grains better and have higher bar for what your conversion efficiency should be. But you’ll have to crush more finely which may mean slower run-off.

In the end you need to see the whole picture and then it all will become clear to you and you may find that shooting for efficiency in the 90s is not worth it. But a lot of brewers have a higher is better attitude towards efficiency and I want to curb that a little bit in raising awareness for what contributes to efficiency and that 75% for one brewer is not 75% for another brewer.

Kai
 
From my experience: I usualy stick to 70% efficiency. I crush fine, mash long (1h), but fly-sparge with limited amount of water 7-9 Ltr (~7 quarts).

Last batch I did with thin mash (1kg:4Ltr) and efficiency jumped up almost to 80%. If it keeps going on like that, I will be able to back-off on sparge water even further.
 
Either way, I would have thought there would have been some crazy calculations listed out in this thread about absolute potential of extracted sugars of "x"lbs of grain vs. actual amount of extracted sugars. Or some sort of volumetric efficiency degradation on a linear scale or chart. etc.

One of the things about AG brewing that I do not comprehend is why is it stated and accepted in many circles that a 75% efficiency rate is a really good target and there is really no need to try to get any higher (Jamil), but then there are all of you guys shooting for 90's and while there are some dissenters in the bunch and others bickering about this that or the other thing, you'd think that after over 2000 years of doing this, we would have figured out what is best by now.
2000 years? I thought it was closer to 5000.:D We haven't figured out the 'best' music either after all these years.;)

Sometimes I wonder what numbers we all use for points/pound/gallon. I just use whatever published numbers I find but even they don't always agree.

For the longest time I specifically AVOIDED trying to go higher than 80% (into the fermenter) and tried to stay at around 75%. But that was with LHBS crushed grain. Now that I have a barley crusher the exact same brewing process yields ~83%-84% (into the fermenter) and that's with only a .040" crush. So I consider that a 'good' increase (just intuitively...no proof) because my 'losses' were mostly due to a poor crush (my sparge:mash water ratio is usually ~3:2 so I don't think I'm over-sparging).
 
I did my first double decoction thin mash(2qt/lb) last weekend and saw my efficiency jump from the low 70's to mid 80's. I was surprised by the increase. There's something to this. I was making a Vienna lager w/ Vienna malt.

Is a thin mash still considered a good method for ales w/ 2 row? Or is this better used with German lagers and their different grains(Vienna, Munich, Pils)
 
Is a thin mash still considered a good method for ales w/ 2 row? Or is this better used with German lagers and their different grains(Vienna, Munich, Pils)

I think it works regardless of the type of malt.

But I like to point out that traditional English mashes are thick (1-1.25 qt/lb) mashes and that you may want to keep mashing thick if your are making English style beers. For German beers it's the other way around. thin mashes are traditional. I'm saying that b/c the mash thicknes has the potential to effect the character of the beer.

Kai
 
Kind of off topic, but I want to try this. How do you change your mash ratio in beersmith? Im having a hell of a time finding it. I believe the default setting is 1.25 qt/lb.
 
Kind of off topic, but I want to try this. How do you change your mash ratio in beersmith? Im having a hell of a time finding it. I believe the default setting is 1.25 qt/lb.

Just change it where you choose your type of mash. It allows you to choose the qt/lb when you create your mash schedule.
 
Yo,
Wildwest, this is off the top of my head, but when your in the section where your building the recipe, at the bottom, after you pick a type of mash profile, and it shows up in the white window telling you how much water and what temp to shoot at, if you double click your mash profile in the white window, you will get the details of that setup, and you can manually change the amount from 1.25 to 2qt per lb. I will say though that I havent ever found a way to control the amount of sparge water, its figured from the settings above. And I think it comes up a bit short. When i do 15lbs of grain, i need 30 qts of water at such and such temp for so many minutes. Usually the sparge water will be like 1.5 gallons. From experience I have found that doesnt get me the 7 gallons i want to have at start of boil, but, about 6 or so, so i add a gallon to whatever the sparge is supposed to be. This is only when i use 2qts per lb. But thats all the time now, its worked great for me.
A great day to you all.
 
I just want to state for the record that although I have high efficiency (usually 90+%), it was not something that I strove to get. I just got it. It was practically an accident and has been that way since my first batch. I just happened to build a 3-tier gravity system with keggles/false bottom and fly-sparging capabilities before ever brewing, my water just happened to be soft and with a low pH, and my LHBS just happened to have a good crush (I've a Barley Crusher now).

I've read before about wort quality and efficiency, but I've only read about it in generic terms. I'd like to know what exactly would be some of the differences in quality. Different sugars or ratio of sugars?... different proteins/levels?... other compounds? Is it more to do with tannin extraction?
 
Aha! it's the old double click on the mash profile trick. You can't fool me all the time.:rolleyes:
 
Thanks everyone for posting your opinions and findings on this matter. I have been hovering around the 72-75% efficiency mark the entire time I've been brewing. I've gone from a 5 gallon MLT with a SS brain, to a 10 gallon with a large copper mainfold, and even from batch sparging to fly sparging. For the last 5 brews I've also used my new Barley Crusher instead of the LHBS crush. Nothing has had an effect on the efficiency numbers except for fly sparging, and that only increased efficiency by 2%. I typically mash at 1.25-1.33 qts/lb. depending on the recipe and desired body of the finished product.

Now, I may be incorrect but based on the limited set of results here's some hypotheses I see that could be made.

1. People who routinely get <80% efficiency will likely see an efficiency increase, which is mainly attributed to conversion efficiency.

2. People who routinely get >85% efficiency will not see a big efficiency gain in a thinner mash. There may even be a decrease due to a detrimental effect the thinner mash has on lautering efficiency.

Thoughts?
 
Thanks everyone for posting your opinions and findings on this matter. I have been hovering around the 72-75% efficiency mark the entire time I've been brewing. I've gone from a 5 gallon MLT with a SS brain, to a 10 gallon with a large copper mainfold, and even from batch sparging to fly sparging. For the last 5 brews I've also used my new Barley Crusher instead of the LHBS crush. Nothing has had an effect on the efficiency numbers except for fly sparging, and that only increased efficiency by 2%. I typically mash at 1.25-1.33 qts/lb. depending on the recipe and desired body of the finished product.

Now, I may be incorrect but based on the limited set of results here's some hypotheses I see that could be made.

1. People who routinely get <80% efficiency will likely see an efficiency increase, which is mainly attributed to conversion efficiency.

2. People who routinely get >85% efficiency will not see a big efficiency gain in a thinner mash. There may even be a decrease due to a detrimental effect the thinner mash has on lautering efficiency.

Thoughts?


This is my understanding...
 
I caught this thread this morning and decided to try 2.0qt./lb myself.
I batch sparge in a 10gal cooler/tun w/ss braid.
I crush with a Barley Crusher set a factory default (.039?)
The grain bill for my last brew was 11 lb. I mashed in with 1.25 qt./lb @ 154 deg f mash temp.(13.75 qt. @ 165deg f). First sparge with 11 qt. @ 212 deg for 170 deg. mash. Second sparge with 11 qt. @ 170 deg.
I hit 78% brew House efficiency with this one (my best yet).

Tonight I used the same grain bill + 1lb 20L Munich for a total of 12lb.
Mash in with 24 qt. @ 161 deg. single sparge with 20 qt. @ 206 deg.
First runnings = 17qt. SG was 1.060 @ 80deg. f. Sparge = 20qt. SG was 1.018 @ 90deg. f.

If I don't lose more than 3-5% (I actually hope to gain some ground) I will continue to use this method as it made for an easier mash experience.

I will update with my post boil OG in an hour or so.
 
Looking forward to your results. The thinner mash DOES help A LOT with the mash in. Soup is easier to mix than oatmeal.
 
The Pol said:
Looking forward to your results. The thinner mash DOES help A LOT with the mash in. Soup is easier to mix than oatmeal.

Well... the results aren't the greatest.

My Post boil SG came to 1.052 which put me at 65% BHE.
9gal @ 90min boil for 5.5gal batch. (same as first recipe)

Maybe if I split the sparge?

I may try that on my next brew (Ray Daniel's Kolsch)

I would not say that this was a failure, just not a raving success.

I will post again after Primary fermentation is complete.

BTW This is a Nut Brown recipe.
 
That is horrible efficiency.

Agreed.
But, I am still learning and very new at this. I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. It took me 5 AGs to reach 78%. It may take a few tries at a different approach to get the best results possible.

I refuse to dump more money into a RIMS style system until I get the best results possible consistently with what I am using now.
 
Agreed.
But, I am still learning and very new at this. I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. It took me 5 AGs to reach 78%. It may take a few tries at a different approach to get the best results possible.

I refuse to dump more money into a RIMS style system until I get the best results possible consistently with what I am using now.

Perfect attitude... I have been AG brewing for 4 years, still learning with each brew.
 
well, the thinner mash results i got showed a mad improvement for me. although i will say this, i went from pretty much always doing 1.25/lb in my 5 gal MLT, to splitting the mash into two.... two 7.5 gallon mashes @ 2.0/lb.... alot of boiling time... i also did two sparges on each mash, and ended up with a little over 9 gallons into the kettle. went from my normal of 70% to 80% on that brew.

i did not however test my first runnings, and i do not forsee myself doing split mashes again, that was the longest brew day ever!

i think i will stick to smaller brews, or maybe scale back to 4 gallon batches so that i can have the good efficiency of a thinner mash, and not waste grain on thicker mashes...

my thick mashes have proved the point of this thread over and over, i just did not know why i would get super bad efficiency @ the time. i have mashed 14lbs of grain in my 5 gallon igloo and got 62%, and the next day mashed 12lbs and got 70.4%.... no change in crush, as it all came from b3. (their crush is nowhere near as good as brewers wherehouse, and the LHBS for me)
 
I tired this experiment by accident on the last brew( wrong qt. conversion in my head) and it gave me 15 % increase in eff. I finally broke 90%. This was a recipe that I have done before and only got 75%. The only difference was an extra 2.5 gall of mash water. I will be performing this experiment again under more exacting circumstances. The only down side to this happy mistake I made is the perfect 4.5 % APA is now a poorly hopped 6.0% IPA
 
My Post boil SG came to 1.052 which put me at 65% BHE.
9gal @ 90min boil for 5.5gal batch. (same as first recipe)

Am I seeing this right. ~50% boil-off. You should not have to boil that much to get good efficiency.

Let's look at your numbers:

You said that you mashes with 2 qt/lb this means the potential for your first wort gravity was 1.065. You got 1.060 so you realized 92% of that potential (i.e. you left about 8% efficiency in in the spent grain as unconverted starch. This sounds pretty good for a 0.39 crush)

You said that you got 4.25 gal of first wort at 1.060. This is 255 points*gal. Then you got 5 gal at 1.018. This is another 90 points*gal totaling 345 points*gal in the kettle. The 12 pounds of grain have a potential of 432 points*gal as each pound has a potential of 36 points*gal.

345.432 * 100% = 80%

This means you must have had 80% efficiency into the kettle. This is darn good. Where did you loose 15%? How much wort was left in the kettle after transfer?

Note that the total amount of water to be used is the same for thick and thin mashes. The additional water that is used in thin mashes is taken from the amount that would have been used for sparging in thick mashes. Otherwise you need to boil-off too much which isn't good for the beer either.

Kai
 
Am I seeing this right. ~50% boil-off. You should not have to boil that much to get good efficiency.

Let's look at your numbers:

You said that you mashes with 2 qt/lb this means the potential for your first wort gravity was 1.065. You got 1.060 so you realized 92% of that potential (i.e. you left about 8% efficiency in in the spent grain as unconverted starch. This sounds pretty good for a 0.39 crush)

You said that you got 4.25 gal of first wort at 1.060. This is 255 points*gal. Then you got 5 gal at 1.018. This is another 90 points*gal totaling 345 points*gal in the kettle. The 12 pounds of grain have a potential of 432 points*gal as each pound has a potential of 36 points*gal.

345.432 * 100% = 80%

This means you must have had 80% efficiency into the kettle. This is darn good. Where did you loose 15%? How much wort was left in the kettle after transfer?

Note that the total amount of water to be used is the same for thick and thin mashes. The additional water that is used in thin mashes is taken from the amount that would have been used for sparging in thick mashes. Otherwise you need to boil-off too much which isn't good for the beer either.

Kai

The siphon in my boil keggle leaves just shy of 3 qts behind. When I was using pellet hops this was just barely enough to keep from getting a sludge filled primary. Leaf hops have taken care of this so I may redo the siphon.
I may not be getting the numbers right.
I let Beer Smith do the math and I am still learning it's capabilities and quirks.
Both recipes that I spoke of were set up in My Recipes in the same format with the same equipment and target temps. I adjusted the grain bill and qt/lb on the mash in.
I initially set things up for sparging @ 2qt/lb and was going to split the sparge. I wound up going with a single 20qt sparge on the spur of the moment. I was not thinking of subtracting the extra strike from the sparge. (newbie with the numbers stuck in my nugget) as I was stuck on finally getting over 70% eff. after going to 2qt/lb sparge.
 
The siphon in my boil keggle leaves just shy of 3 qts behind. When I was using pellet hops this was just barely enough to keep from getting a sludge filled primary. Leaf hops have taken care of this so I may redo the siphon.

Or just leave it like that and filter the trub though a paper towel, freeze the wort and use for future starters. You'll save the DME and nothing is lost.

That's what I do and if I were to report efficiencies into the fermenter I would be in the 60s as well.

Kai
 
Kai, that book I e-mailed you has a chapter on this topic.

I'll copy and paste some of it here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changes in mash thickness (liquor/grist ratio) have significant effects on mash
performance (Hind, 1950; Hopkins and Krause, 1947; Harris and MacWilliam, 1961;
Muller, 1989; 1991; Table 4.14). Very concentrated mashes, (liquor/grist <2:1 ml/g), are
difficult to mix and pump, extract recoveries are reduced, starch conversion is slowed down, worts are more concentrated and viscous, TSN and FAN are increased and more high molecular weight nitrogenous substances remain in solution, but a lower proportion
of hydrophobic peptides (relative to the amount of extract) are present, causing `high gravity' beers to have poor head retentions (Bryce et al., 1997). In the concentrated mashes both the enzymes and their substrates are more concentrated. Some enzymes (proteolytic enzymes, disaccharidases) are more stable in concentrated mashes producing higher proportions of TSN and hexose sugars respectively. At high mashing temperatures thicker mashes give worts with higher fermentabilities (Muller, 1991; Fig. 4.13). On the other hand, at `normal' mashing temperatures weaker mashes give more fermentable worts. The high concentrations of sugars and dextrins present in thick mashes can inhibit the amylases. Enzyme inhibition is due to the reduced availability of free water as well as to the sugars acting as competitive inhibitors. Brewery worts contain 0ÿ40% more soluble nitrogen than laboratory analytical worts. It was reported that mashes made with 39% solids give worts with maximum extract yields while worts with the highest fermentabilities are given by mashes made with 16ÿ32% solids. The effects of mash concentration on extract yield are also present when adjuncts are included in the mash (Harris and MacWilliam, 1961; Muller, 1991; Fig. 4.14).
As the grist hydrates water is bound, and there is a rise in temperature caused by the
release of heat (the `heat of hydration'). As the mash proceeds water is utilized in
hydrolyses, a water molecule being consumed when any bond is split. Some water is
more or less firmly bound (by hydrogen bonding) to starch, to sugars in solution, to -
glucans, to pentosans and to other substances reducing the concentration of `free' water.
In all-malt mashes and mashes made with 50 : 50 malt and barley or wheat starch the
extract recovered falls very sharply as the liquor/grist ratio is reduced below about 2.5
(Fig. 4.14). Generally, altering the liquor/grist ratio at values over 3 has comparatively
minor effects, but these are not necessarily negligible. In a particular case mashing with a
liquor/grist ratio of 2.5 : 1 gave an extract of 291 l ë/kg, while at a ratio of 7 : 1 the extract
was 311 l ë/kg. The extent of water binding becomes progressively greater as mashes
become more concentrated and there is insufficient free water to permit the gelatinization
of much of the starch. The addition of more enzymes to a very thick mash does not
quickly convert the ungelatinized starch and so does not enhance the extract obtained.
The situation with the maize starch (Fig. 4.14) is complicated because its gelatinization
temperature (70ÿ75 ëC; 158ÿ167 ëF) is above that of the mashing temperature (65 ëC;
149 ëF) and so the conversion of the starch into extract is relatively slow. The potato
starch had a wide gelatinization temperature range (56ÿ69 ëC; 132.8ÿ156.2 ëF), which
spanned the temperature of the mash, and the pattern of extract recovery was different
again (Fig. 4.14).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then this part about the quality of the runnings as more and more is pulled.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As run off progresses the quality and concentration of the wort declines. The last
runnings contain extract that has a comparatively poor quality (Hind, 1950; Figs 4.15,
4.16). Relative to the extract more high- and low-molecular weight nitrogenous materials,
ash (including phosphates), silicates (mostly from the silica in the malt husk),
polyphenols and astringent substances are dissolved, all these being favoured by the
increasing pH. The specific gravity of the wort rises then declines as the sparge liquor
emerges. As the wort is diluted the fermentability initially increases and finally falls
sharply. Often the pH rises, (e.g. by 0.2ÿ0.7), as the buffering substances are eluted from
the goods. The rise is particularly marked if a bicarbonate sparge liquor is used. This rise
is undesirable and should be checked and the calcium ion concentration of the liquor
should be maintained (Laing and Taylor, 1984). Experimental thick mashes (liquor/grist
2.5/1, i.e. 28.6%) would not run off unless a high concentration of calcium ions (200mg/l)
was used. Thus the last worts are weak, and are relatively rich in poorly flavoured
extractives and potential haze-forming substances. These last runnings, like the press
liquor from the spent grains (Chapter 3), may be stored hot for a short period (to prevent
spoilage by micro-organisms) and then be added to a subsequent mash to recover the
extract. However, to maintain the quality of the beer the weak wort may need to be
clarified by centrifugation to remove suspended solids (particularly lipids) and/or may be
treated with active charcoal (doses of 10ÿ50 g/hl have been suggested) to reduce the
levels of tannins, nitrogenous substances, colour and harsh flavours before it is added to a later mash (Morraye, 1938; Prechtl, 1967).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here's some of the figure's they are referencing.

brew.jpg
 
z987k,

Thanks. Since I do have the backing from the brewing science community on this I felt very comfortable making a strong statement about the pros of thin mashing. It was my experiments and what I read in the book you are citing there that inspired me to rewrite my article about mash chemistry in an attempt to digest and present the information which exists about the effects of various mash parameters.

Starch Conversion - German Brewing Techniques

Kai
 
So, if I read table 14-4 correctly, the extract efficiency of the mash is greatest (80%) at 4.0ml/g. However, even at 3.0ml/g efficiency is 77%. 3ml/g is 1.43 qts/lb., and 4ml/g is 1.9 qts/lb. if I'm doing the conversion correctly. Based on this information a mash thickness between 1.5-2.0 qts/lb. will give almost identical results, varying by just 1-2%.
 
So, if I read table 14-4 correctly, the extract efficiency of the mash is greatest (80%) at 4.0ml/g. However, even at 3.0ml/g efficiency is 77%. 3ml/g is 1.43 qts/lb., and 4ml/g is 1.9 qts/lb. if I'm doing the conversion correctly. Based on this information a mash thickness between 1.5-2.0 qts/lb. will give almost identical results, varying by just 1-2%.

Yes, but: This is only for the specific mash conditions that were present for that experiment. The curve may look different for a coarser/finer crush or a different mash pH. When I wrote an article about mash parameters end their effect on conversion efficiency I introduced the idea of “good enough” as we are dealing with a system that has a limit and can hit saturation. This is because there is only so much starch available for conversion and the amount of enzymes present are enough to convert it all given “good enough” conditions. So if your crush it coarser you may be able to compensate with loner mashing and/or thinner mashing b/c both of these parameter changes increase the “power” of the enzymes which is needed to compensate for the increased hurdle of having a coarser crush.

As a result the graphs posted in the literature (including my experiments) should only be used to identify trends and not to get specific parameters for you process. They are great for identifying changes that may make a difference. But if you want to quantify these differences you need to test this in your own process. You may for example find the following:

1.25 qt/lb -> 80% conversion
1.5 qt/lb -> 90% conversion
1.75 qt/lb -> 94% conversion
2.0 qt/lb -> 95% conversion

And this may easily change if you change mash time, crush or malt type.

Kai
 
To quote myself:
I need to reconfirm, but I've been playing with water:grain ratios and lost about 5% (brewhouse) as well (93 to 88). On my latest brew, I went back with 1.25 qts and was back up at 93%. Obviously other factors could have been in play and I did do a 90 min. mash, but I didn't change anything else.

I may be brewing again this weekend (if my package arrives in time), so I'll go with 1.75qts and see what happens.

I brewed my Redden Bitter today with 1.75qts/lb. Ended up with high efficiency. One other thing I changed, however, was adding gypsum to the mash water. My water pH is great (5.7), but the mineral content is extremely low, particularly in Calcium (2ppm). I thought I'd try adding enough to bring it up to around 50ppm. My main purpose of doing this was to see if it affects attenuation (beta-amylase), but I suspect it could affect extract efficiency as well.
 
Adding Calcium should help acidify the mash. I would expect a lower mash pH. Did you measure that?

You might want to try CaCl or a combination of CaCl/Gypsum for your Calcium. The Chloride and Sulphate ions 'taste' different.
 
I thought I'd try adding enough to bring it up to around 50ppm. My main purpose of doing this was to see if it affects attenuation (beta-amylase), but I suspect it could affect extract efficiency as well.

Ca alone has little effect on efficiency and even less effect on attenuation. If it had an effect if was b/c of the pH shift. W/o knowing the before and after mash pH numbers it is hard to tell.

It is commonly assumed that mash enzymes need minerals like Ca to work better. But this isn't the case. Ca has no effect on b-amylase and helps to stabilize a-amylase. But the later is not a problem at regular mash temps. Just as an example: the congress mash, which is done to determine the extract potential of the malt, is done with distilled water. And by definition it has 100% efficiency (since it sets the benchmark for our efficiencies).

Kai
 
I was under the impression water minerals such as Ca indirectly improve mash efficiency through their "buffering affect" & influence on the mash pH.

Varying the amount of water used would in turn vary the amount of minerals in the mash which has an affect on mash pH & therefore affects efficiency...right?

Just trying to understand water chemistry's role in this whole water to grain ratio efficiency improvements.
 
I was under the impression water minerals such as Ca indirectly improve mash efficiency through their "buffering affect" & influence on the mash pH.

That's what I have found as well. If the pH is right you don't need minerals from the water for mashing.

Varying the amount of water used would in turn vary the amount of minerals in the mash which has an affect on mash pH & therefore affects efficiency...right?

pH is a logarithmic (base 10) measure of proton concentration. As a result mash pH doesn't change much with changing the concentration within the range that we are talking about.

Based on that, and my experiences, I don't think that thin mashes improve efficiency by shifting the pH. The change in mash thickness has much greater effect on the activity of the enzymes and the gelatinization of the starches than it has on the enzyme activity through pH changes.

Kai
 
I added gypsum to my mash water (which, recall, is 2ppm Calcium) because of the two following reasons:

Fix (regarding "Brewing Liquor"):
Calcium ions also tend to afford thermal protection for mash enzymes. ...

Finally, calcium ions also influence beer fermentation. For example, they favorably affect yeast flocculation and beer clarification during maturation. ...

A widely accepted rule in brewing is to have calcium concentrations of at least 50mg/L [(same as ppm)], and values in the range of 100-150 mg/L are very common.

and Noonan:
In appropriate amounts, calcium is advantageous to the brew. Calcium stimulates enzyme activity and improves protein digestion, stabilizes the alpha-amylase enzyme, helps gelatinize starch, and improves lauter runoff. ...

It is also an essential part of yeast-cell composition. Small amounts of calcium neutralize substances toxic to yeast, such as peptone and lecithin.

I've known my calcium content was low, but I relied on the calcium content in the barley to suffice. After reading the two texts above and putting them together, I thought it would be worth it to add to the mash and see if there were noticeable differences from all of my previous batches where I would only add it to the boil.

As for pH shift, if one considers ~5.2-5.5 pH the optimal range, and my water pH is ~5.7, there isn't a whole lot for it to come down... even if it's more difficult to reduce at lower starting pHs. According to my calculations, the pH drop as a result of my gypsum addition was ~0.1.

My pH and efficiency have never been an issue. It's just that yesterday, my efficiency was through the roof. I've done the 1.75 qts/lb before and was within the range of my standard efficiency. The only thing I've never done before yesterday was add minerals to the mash water.

I'm not saying for sure what was the determining factor of my high efficiency yesterday. I think all factors are worth consideration.
 
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