Oktoberfest/Marzen ale recipe

I decided to brew BM's OktoberFAST ale. I know its late, but I just want it for the cold months, not necessarily October.

So I went to the lhbs to get the ingredients I needed for this. All I needed was yeast and Aromatic malt. The guy I talked to talked me out of a lb of aromatic saying it was way to much for 5 gal, and talked me in to trying the Kolsch yeast. He also said that I should use Melanoiden in an Oktoberfest. So this is the recipe I came up with after the last minute changes. Does this seem like it would be good:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 10.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 31.78 %
3.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 27.24 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 18.16 %
1.01 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.14 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 4.57 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.54 %
0.25 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 2.28 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.28 %
0.75 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (25 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
1 Pkgs German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029) Yeast-Ale


Mash at 156 for 60 min.

I plan to ferment with the Kolsch yeast pretty cool, lower 60's hopefully.

Looks good, seems like a complicated recipe. I dont think you even need the Pale malt, I would replace the Pale with the Vienna. MY recipe uses only vienna, muchich and munich 60L. I just kegged yesterday and it was amazing. Good luck with it!

Apologies before hand for this (it's not meant to be directed at the OP specifically). But, every time I read something like "Oktoberfest/Marzen ale" or some similar variation of this type of blasphemy it is always like fingernails across a blackboard for me. I am not certain why I am so sensitive about it really. I like BM's "OktoberFAST ale" title...it passes my blasphemy radar as it is a unique name for a NOT oktoberfest/maerzen.

/rant off

Nothing to see here....move along....

It's funny he talked you out of the aromatic malt and into melanoidin malt- it's basically the same thing!

ThickHead said:

Apologies before hand for this (it's not meant to be directed at the OP specifically). But, every time I read something like "Oktoberfest/Marzen ale" or some similar variation of this type of blasphemy it is always like fingernails across a blackboard for me. I am not certain why I am so sensitive about it really. I like BM's "OktoberFAST ale" title...it passes my blasphemy radar as it is a unique name for a NOT oktoberfest/maerzen.

/rant off

Nothing to see here....move along....

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I don't disagree with you at all. In fact I was very hesitant to do this for essentially the same reason ... but my curiosity got the better of me, and I want to give it a try. Didn't have the time to come up with a nifty name for it .... yet.

I NEVER listen to the recipe advice at any LHBS as it always turned out bad when I did.

Personally I'd stick with the original recipe on the first attempt.

Yooper_Brew said:

It's funny he talked you out of the aromatic malt and into melanoidin malt- it's basically the same thing!

Click to expand...

So if they are essentially the same thing, should I just use it as I listed, or should I cut one of them out? The ingredients I have now, I only have a half pound of those two combined. If I cut one, only 4 oz. I am concerned that may not be enough.

lyacovett said:

So if they are essentially the same thing, should I just use it as I listed, or should I cut one of them out? The ingredients I have now, I only have a half pound of those two combined. If I cut one, only 4 oz. I am concerned that may not be enough.

Click to expand...

Heck, no, no need to cut it. it's basically the same thing is all I said- that's why it's funny he said not to use so much aromatic malt, but sold you melanoidin malt (the same thing by a different company).

Well, Vienna > Munich > Melanoidin is the progression on this series from what I have read. Didn't know aromatic was the same as melanoidin though.

lyacovett said:

Does this seem like it would be good:

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I'll echo some of the previous comments, it's too complicated and it's got too much crystal malt. I would also bring the mash temp way down from 156F, especially considering the crystal malt content. Try 150 or even 148F to at least get something resembling a clean finish. The gravity and IBU numbers look OK.

Here's a sample outline for the next try using the same overall amount of grains.

4 lbs Vienna
4 lbs Munich
3 lbs Pilsner
A 1/4 lb of either Melanoidin and/or CaraPils is optional if you want a little tweak.

Yooper_Brew said:

It's funny he talked you out of the aromatic malt and into melanoidin malt- it's basically the same thing!

Click to expand...

They are not the same AFAIK. In fact this question came up during one of my recent visits to the LHBS. Smelling and tasting Melanodin, Aromatic and Biscuit malts brought forth three very different aromas and tastes.

BigEd said:

They are not the same AFAIK. In fact this question came up during one of my recent visits to the LHBS. Smelling and tasting Melanodin, Aromatic and Biscuit malts brought forth three very different aromas and tastes.

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Oh, they do differ somewhat but in my opinion, the closest possible sub for aromatic is melanoidin. They have different maltsters.

BigEd said:

I'll echo some of the previous comments, it's too complicated and it's got too much crystal malt.

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Agreed; 18% crystal is just way too much for almost any beer. My Oktoberfest this year used 9%, and I might actually cut that back to 7-8% next time.

Remember, a "traditional" VMO would have been brewed before crystal malts existed.

OK, cutting way back on the crystal, and changing the base malts some. This is what I came up with:

Not sure what the munich vs vienna ratio should be. Appreciate any guidance on that as well.

4.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 41.85 %
4.25 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 39.52 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 9.31 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.65 %
0.25 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 2.34 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 2.34 %
0.75 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 11.8 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (25 min) Hops 5.5 IBU
1 Pkgs German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029) Yeast-Ale


Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 13.43 qt of water at 167.5 F 155.0 F

The munich/vienna ratio is fine. Depending on your tastes, 1 lb of crystal 40 will definitely impart a noticeable sweetness to the beer, I think more than what is found in an "authentic" version. But of course you are doing an ale version so that is sort out the window. The sweetness will be further compounded with all the Munich and Vienna malt. If you subbed pilsner for one or the other, then maybe it could handle some more crystal. I use just over 1/2 lb of Caramunich in mine ( 5 gal.), and use a pils/munich or a pils vienna combo.

All that being said, if you want the beer on the sweetish side, it looks good

Paraphrased

ThickHead said:

"Oktoberfest/Marzen ale" is NOT oktoberfest/maerzen.

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What would you call it then? Altbier?

RobMoore said:

Paraphrased

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Lol...yeah, i'd say.

What would you call it then? Altbier?

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I'm inclined to call it an Autumn Ale.

Definitely not an Altbier. Totally different taste profile - at least compared to the true German version. I've had some American Altbiers that should have been properly labeled as Ambers

Well, I am hoping for something a bit sweet, but not overly so. Maybe I will mash a little lower, 152 or so. That should dry it out a bit more. I am looking for an fg around 1.012. I have been having attenuation like crazy lately, no matter what yeast I use.

So I figure I am using a kolsh yeast, which should be relatively dry. 1.055 to 1.012 is about 77% I think, at the high end for this yeast. I think that should be OK.

Brewing this tonight, just measured out the grain ... so its too late to back out now.

I will post some tasting notes on this when its ready if anyone is interested.

Thanks for the input guys.

OK, I brewed this on Friday night. Right now it is sitting in the primary still slowly bubbling away. Had it at 61-62 degrees, let it rise up some last night .... sitting at about 67 right now. Took a gravity ready, right at about 1.020 - 1.019 ... right now it tastes awesome ... still a little bit yeasty, but that is to be expected. I think this is going to be great.

I have a question on this now though. With the recipe listed, what would I be tasting most. The aromatic/melanoidin, or the munich/vienna. Birthday/Christmas is coming up, and I want to stock up on some grains. I love the taste of this style .... it is actually pretty darn close to Paulaner Oktoberfest ... still a bit more yeasty, but it is still fermenting. Should I stock up on munich if I want to add a bit of this flavor to most of my brews?? Or should I get a couple pounds of aromatic?