Will a blow-off fermenter help?

Every batch of beer I have ever made has a harsh overly-yeasty, overly-bitter (even astringent) flavor. I would guess wild yeast contamination, but I am ridiculously anal about making sure everything is sterilized well and kept covered at all times.

Because of the harsh yeastiness, it occured to me that I may be leaving too much yeast in contact with my beer. Would it be beneficial to use a blow-off fermenter to get rid of some of that crap during fermentation?

If so, I have another question. With my plastic Brew Pail, there is ample room to seal the lid and then shake the hell out of it when I pitch my yeast. Since a blow-off fermenter requires a small amount of headspace, how do I ensure proper aeration during pitching? Keep in mind that I have no oxygen tanks or anything hardcore like that.

Another idea I had was to clamp a muslin bag over my siphon when moving to the secondary, but I’m afraid this might also block out some of the yeast still in suspension, and I won’t get a decent carbonation later. Has anyone tried this?

I'm not even sure what you mean by "blow-off fermenter." I'm assuming that would jujst be a bucket or carboy equiped with a blow-off hose instead of an airlock.

Either way would have no effect on what you're talking about. A blowoff hose is just a big airlock that can cope with a blow-off better than an airlock.

Wild yeast does not create bitter flavors: it creates "plasticy" flavors: like a wet band-aid.

The muslin bag thing works and it will not prevent the yeast cells in suspension from passing through (they are much smaller).

But I really doubt if yeast is the culprit in the flavors you are describing.

We should probably talk a little more about your ingredients and process. Do you use any sugar in your brew?

There are a number of things that can lead to astringent taste.

We'd need to know more about your recent batches (recipe and process) to help out.

"I would guess wild yeast contamination, but I am ridiculously anal about making sure everything is sterilized well and kept covered at all times."
It's rare that you would infect one brew if you're careful and virtually impossible to infect every one of your brews.


"Would it be beneficial to use a blow-off fermenter to get rid of some of that crap during fermentation? "
I've done a ton of brews (extract and AG's) and never once had a krausen (foam) leave the fermenter. It will either fall to the bottom after fermentation or you can siphon around it.

using a carboy..."how do I ensure proper aeration during pitching"
I always aerate in my bucket and then siphon into my carboy.

"Another idea I had was to clamp a muslin bag over my siphon when moving to the secondary, but I’m afraid this might also block out some of the yeast still in suspension, and I won’t get a decent carbonation later. Has anyone tried this?"

There is plenty of yeast in the liquid of your beer. If you can siphon just above the trub on the bottom and stop the siphoning when the clearer liquid is transferred, you'll still have plenty of yeast. If you want to filter out more stuff you can use this contraption. I still have plenty of yeast for continued fermentation in the secondary and carb conditioning.



Astringent taste is most often caused by boiling specialty grains that should instead be steeped at 150-160 degrees.

Too much yeast (to my pallette) tastes more like a slice of bread dough.

Thanks for the quick replies.

What made me think of using a blow-off hose was the following from NCJoHB: “This method of fermenting has the extra advantage of ‘blowing off’ excessively bitter hop resins, excess yeast, and other things…”

As far as what exactly the off-flavor is…well, I can’t quite identify it. There is an overly yeasty, bread-like taste. But there is also the astringency. In my last batch I wised up and didn’t boil my specialty grains, and that helped that aspect a lot, but it is still there a little bit.

But there is another note that I can only describe as harsh and artificial. And the key here is that it smells exactly the same as it tastes, so it isn’t just a flavor thing like bitter or sour. I would say chemical-like, but it doesn’t make me think of phenol or sulfer.

The recipe I used is Tits Up in the Mud Pale Ale from HBC:

5 lbs. Northwestern Gold Dry Malt
+ 1 ¼ cup for bottling
0.4 lbs. 40L Crystal Malt
- steeped at 150F for 15 min.
Wyeast British Ale Yeast (1098)
LD Carlson Kent Goldings, a.a. 5.7%
- 1 oz. boiling
- 0.5 oz. aroma (accidentally steeped 6 min. instead of 2-3 min.)
- 0.5 oz. dry hop
LD Carlson Styrian Goldings, a.a. 4.9%
- 0.5 oz. flavor
Bottled jugs of “drinking water” from the grocery store

-Specialty grains and hops were added in a muslin bag.
-Everything sanitized in Star-San
-I couldn’t get the wort cooled down fast enough, so I left it overnight, and then pitched the yeast in the morning. It was sealed the whole time, though.

Makita said:

-I couldn’t get the wort cooled down fast enough, so I left it overnight, and then pitched the yeast in the morning. It was sealed the whole time, though.

Click to expand...

OK, I take it back. I think it was wild yeast.

Wild yeast are pretty much everywhere, and every wort has some in it.

Ideally, the wort is quickly chilled and pitched with a huge amount of yeast cells. They begin reproducing and then actively fermenting very quickly, overwhelming the competition from the wild yeasts.

But when your wort sat overnight, it gave the wold yeasts a head start--they had time to reproduce and get to work before being overwhelemed by the on-purpose yeast.

Wild yeast is not so much a contamination issue (every batch has it), but a containment/competition issue. It's the main reason why quick chilling and pitching of adequate yeast cell counts is important.

Hmm...very interesting.

I assumed that as long as I kept everything covered, it wouldn't be a problem. The only time I had my pot uncovered after boiling was when I added and removed the muslin bag to steep the aroma hops, and when I poured the wort into the bucket. Wouldn't bacteria have just as easy of a time floating into my open container? I know I don't have bacterial contamination. (That happened to my friend once and it tasted like lemon juice.)

Also, this is the only batch that has actually sat overnight. However, I will say that all of my other batches have taken a few hours to cool down. I definately need a bigger sink to put ice in or an immersion cooler.

Oh, one more thing....would a beer be drinkable after wild yeast contamination? This latest batch is definately drinkable, just kind of "funky" and not as good as what I could get from the store.

My question: What kind of water are you using? Water doesn't play as big of a role in extract, but if you have high chlorine or chlorophenols, sometimes even really hight sodium levels you can get some pretty funky flavors going on. I have to admit, I only skimmed the thread, but it didn't seem like anyone mentioned this.

^^^
I have used tap water, Brita-filtered tap water, and bottled drinking water. The last batch was bottled drinking water.

Our water here is very hard naturally, but after going through our water softener is quite soft.

Off-topic: Just out of curiousity, can "softened" water be used for a Czech pilsner? I want to eventually try to make one and I know it needs soft water.

So like everyone else you've got a few issues mixed together. It'll take some experimentation to get them all straighted out... here's my take,

1) Astrigency (tannins like young red wine, make you tounge dry and fuzzy) is caused by boiling grains. You said "I wised up and didn't boil my grains" on the last beer but by implication not the previous beers. So, don't boil your grains, I think you've got this covered.

2) Letting the wort sit overnight it WAAAY too long. Having an immersion chiller is best but takes $$. Taking a couple hours to cool it in an ice bath is acceptable and many, many brewers have good results doing this.
I suspect on this batch you got some sort of infection because of the sitting overnight. Did you get sour beer? you can get sour contaminations (lactobaccillis, or aceto-bactor) as well as the band-aid, stinky feet kind.

So, time to try a third. No boiling, no overnight sit. See what you get.

Finally, convential brew wisdom says that no toxic bateria can survive in beer. It may tast like hell but it won't hurt you.

If you have any more beer you can try mixing to cut down the taste. If it's actuallyl soured this is what the pros do to control sourness. Or cook with it.

Makita said:

5 lbs. Northwestern Gold Dry Malt
+ 1 ¼ cup for bottling
0.4 lbs. 40L Crystal Malt
- steeped at 150F for 15 min.
Wyeast British Ale Yeast (1098)
LD Carlson Kent Goldings, a.a. 5.7%
- 1 oz. boiling
- 0.5 oz. aroma (accidentally steeped 6 min. instead of 2-3 min.)
- 0.5 oz. dry hop
LD Carlson Styrian Goldings, a.a. 4.9%
- 0.5 oz. flavor
Bottled jugs of “drinking water” from the grocery store

-Specialty grains and hops were added in a muslin bag.-Everything sanitized in Star-San
-I couldn’t get the wort cooled down fast enough, so I left it overnight, and then pitched the yeast in the morning. It was sealed the whole time, though.

Click to expand...

Everything onecolumbyte said and maybe one more thing-
This is the thing that sticks out for me: Specialty grains and hops were added in a muslin bag.

I assume that you steeped the grains at 150 for 20 minutes then removed them. Then brought the pot to a boil, and then added the extract, and then the first hops and started timing for 1 hour. Then no other hops until the 6 minute addition (you said should have been 2-3) and they you dry hopped in the secondary?

And one last question- how long did primary fermentation last, and at what temperature? Did you use a secondary, and for how long? (I guess that's two!)

Also, to chill your wort faster, you dont HAVE to have a big sink. Think bathtub, ice chest, cooler, etc. Put in a bag of ice (or two) and some water and it'll cool your wort FAST.

This reminds me of a problem I had with a few of my beers. First I thought it was a pH problem, but then I realized that it must have been the 1lb bag of Halletrtauer hops that I used in all of them.

Are you using hops from the same lot for all of the beers with the problem?

Kai

@Kaiser: Ha-ha...when I first read that post, I thought you were having trouble because you added a 1lb bag of hops to each batch. That would do it. But, no...I think my beers have been different types of hops, mostly. I buy the little 1 oz. packages.

@Yooperchick: Here are my exact notes...
- Heated to 150F and made sure it was stable.
- Crushed grains and steeped in muslin bag 15 min.
- Rinse bag well and put into StarSan solution.
- Brought water up to a boil and added malt, stirring the whole time.
- Added gypsum and boiling hops at this time. (Hops into the muslin bag).
- Boil 45 min, stirring often.
- Added irish moss.
- Added flavor hops into muslin bag on top of other hops. Boil 15 min longer.
- Took pot off heat. Put lid on. After about 10 min, added aroma hops to bag.
- Put 2.5 gallons refrigerated bottled water (container wiped with StarSan) into carboy.
- Poured wort through sanitized strainer (plastic) funnel into bucket.
NOTE: The wort was still too hot (about 84F), so I kept checking up on it and shaking it. Finally, it was still too hot and I went to bed. I should not have kept shaking it if I wasn't putting the yeast in. Next time put pot into the tub of cold water for a while. Not sure how long, but get yeast in within an hour.

-Pitched the next day.
-Transferred to secondary eight days later. FG=1.018. (Didn't record OG reading.)

There you have it. The notes of a struggling brewer.

Lots of good advice and insights here -- I will add my two cents to the fray as well.

First, I have to offer a dissenting opinion to this statement:

"I would guess wild yeast contamination, but I am ridiculously anal about making sure everything is sterilized well and kept covered at all times."It's rare that you would infect one brew if you're careful and virtually impossible to infect every one of your brews.

Click to expand...

I was anal about sterilization, but contracted wild yeast from a spoiled beer kit (it was a 23L, all wort kit made by a local brewery -- they had major problems and don't make them anymore). Anyways, EVERY batch I did after that was infected because I was using the same plastic pail, and nothing I could do would disinfect it. So I would argue that once you have contracted an infection in your plastic, it is virtually impossible to NOT infect every one of your brews.

Also, what temperature are you fermenting at? I had some similar problems with a couple of kits that (1) weren't oxygenated properly, and (2) were fermented too warm/at fluctuating temperatures. If this is the problem, the off flavours are likely to dissipate with time in the bottle. If it is something else (e.g., wild yeast) they will not dissipate or actually increase through time.

Makita said:

@Kaiser: Ha-ha...when I first read that post, I thought you were having trouble because you added a 1lb bag of hops to each batch. That would do it. But, no...I think my beers have been different types of hops, mostly. I buy the little 1 oz. packages.

@Yooperchick: Here are my exact notes...
- Heated to 150F and made sure it was stable.
- Crushed grains and steeped in muslin bag 15 min.
- Rinse bag well and put into StarSan solution.
- Brought water up to a boil and added malt, stirring the whole time.
- Added gypsum and boiling hops at this time. (Hops into the muslin bag).
- Boil 45 min, stirring often.
- Added irish moss.
- Added flavor hops into muslin bag on top of other hops. Boil 15 min longer.
- Took pot off heat. Put lid on. After about 10 min, added aroma hops to bag.
- Put 2.5 gallons refrigerated bottled water (container wiped with StarSan) into carboy.
- Poured wort through sanitized strainer (plastic) funnel into bucket.
NOTE: The wort was still too hot (about 84F), so I kept checking up on it and shaking it. Finally, it was still too hot and I went to bed. I should not have kept shaking it if I wasn't putting the yeast in. Next time put pot into the tub of cold water for a while. Not sure how long, but get yeast in within an hour.

-Pitched the next day.
-Transferred to secondary eight days later. FG=1.018. (Didn't record OG reading.)

There you have it. The notes of a struggling brewer.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm still not understanding- you put the hops into the SAME muslin bag? Why the StarSan? (There is no need to sanitize anything if it goes into the boil). Don't shake your wort until it gets below 80 degrees! Also, if you chill your topoff water to very, very cold, you can add it to your wort and it'lll be cool alot faster! Say your wort is 84 degrees- if you add 2.5 gallons of 50 degree water, you just cooled it down. Cool the wort FIRST, then strain and put into your fermenter with the cold water.

What temp did you ferment at? Also, why do you use qypsum? Thanks! (Last questions, at least for a while!)

I'm still thinking, here- but I don't often use hops bags. But when I do, they aren't muslin- they are very, very thin "hops bags". And when I used to use grain bags, those are more like a thick cheesecloth, not muslin.

Also, you should never, ever use water that has been run through a home softener. It softens the water by replacing calcium with sodium in a process known as "ion exchange". This will introduce WAY too much sodium into your water and will definately give you funky flavors.

I steeped the grains in the muslin bag. Then took the bag out of the wort, dumped out the grains, rinsed it out well, and THEN put the hops in and put it back into the wort. Using StarSan on something that is going to go right back into boiling water is the kind of paranoia that can only come from making batch after batch of "off" beer.

The fermentation was at room temp. In my house, that is probably around 68-70 degrees.

I think the gypsum was a hold-over technique from when I used tap water in my first couple of brews. Our water comes out of the tap extremely soft. I suppose I could leave it out since I have been using bottled drinking water.

@clayof2day...so what do you use for water? I use "drinking water" from the store, but who knows what that means?

Do you cover your pot while boiling? I'm wondering if the 'harsh, artificial" taste is DMS. Also, when you rack from primary to secondary, you must have alot of crud on the sides from the krausen. Do you try to leave that there, and not disturb it?

Sorry for all the questions- I'm just trying to think through your whole process to figure out where that off flavor is coming from.

Yooper Chick said:

Sorry for all the questions- I'm just trying to think through your whole process to figure out where that off flavor is coming from.

Click to expand...

No, don't worry about it. I really appreciate the help.

DMS is a sulfur-like smell, right? This is definately not sulfur. In fact, it doesn't stink, per se, it is just harsh on the nose and tongue. The carbonation is also a little harsh - not as bad as soda, but still too much bite to it.

I know harsh is pretty subjective for a flavor, so I'll add raw and possibly grassy to that. Not hops-flowery, but harsh grass. After some of my beers have sat for over a year, they still have the same taste, so "raw" probably does not really mean raw in this case.

Yeah, I guess I try to leave the krausen there, but that is why I originally asked about the blow-off method. Seems like no one here thinks that is necessary, though.

How long has the beer been bottles/kegged?
I've had a few batches that have been very harsh after about 3 weeks in the bottle/keg, but which have mellowed out wonderfully after leaving them to age for another 3 - 4 weeks.

-a.

Well to help describe your flavors, try this page: http://howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Or if someone is willing, ship one beer to them and have them taste it. Someone with more experience around here could probably tell you the problem.

I think the things to do right now are to: get a grain bag instead of a "muslin" bag- they are cheap and disposible; don't use hops bags at all- just chuck 'em in; cool your wort much faster as described and use a dry Nottingham yeast at 68 degrees. Keep your sanitization good, and see if you can get your hands on a different (new) primary and lid. Keep your brew under airlock after stirring it up well in the primary and don't let any air get to it. Taste it after primary, and see if that "taste" is there, or if it comes later, after secondary.

The reason I say to use the Nottingham yeast is that it's a very neutral dry yeast, so you don't have to make a starter or "baby" the yeast at all. Also, the neutral flavor will help pinpoint any off-flavors that you still might have.

I use tap water, but our water is here is pretty balanced straight out of the tap and it doesn't run through a softener. I would imagine that bottled drinking water should be OK and you said you have noticed this flavor in you samples done with this as well, so its probably not the issue.

Matt

Today, I had some ex-home brewers at work taste my beer. One of them wasn't sure, and the other guy said almost certainly wild yeast.

He said his beers used to have that twang like mine do, but eventually that went away. He thought that might have been about the time he switched to using only glass carboys.

So, I think in addition to the other advice I've gotten here, I'll pick up a new carboy after work. I already have a 6 gallon carboy...any opinions on whether I should get another 6 gallon one, or should I get a 5 gallon instead?

If you're talking about doing primary fermentations in a carboy, you should probably get a 6.5 gallon one. That allows some headspace for krausen. I still do all primary fermentations in the big plastic bucket, so I have only 5 gallon carboys for secondary.