Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

BeerMeDuffMan said:

After much fiddling with this one I've discovered that I don't have a stuck fermentation. I think I've reached my limit at 1.020 with extracts. It doesn't taste bad at all just on the sweet side

Click to expand...

Sorry to disagree, but even with extract this beer should get down below 1.015 with little trouble. 1.020 is a stuck fermentation.

What was your pitch rate? Did you use pure oxygen? How about ferm temp? This yeast really needs to get up into the mid-70's after high krausen to finish up.

It was a good 3 liter starter with 3787. I aerated pretty well via hand. I had 85 degree fermentation temp throughout. U repitched Friday and still have the same gravity reading. At this point I don't think it would be a good idea to add more oxygen. Any thoughts on that?

BeerMeDuffMan said:

It was a good 3 liter starter with 3787. I aerated pretty well via hand. I had 85 degree fermentation temp throughout. U repitched Friday and still have the same gravity reading. At this point I don't think it would be a good idea to add more oxygen. Any thoughts on that?

Click to expand...

No oxygen now, you'll just end up oxidizing the under-attenuated beer at this point.

Sounds like you had enough yeast, but for beers this big, you really need 1-2 min of pure O2, or at the very least 20min of air from a pump through a sintered stone. The shake and pray method has its limitations.

As an aside, maintaining a temp of 85F throughout is not a good idea either. This yeast will perform best if pitched cool (mid 60's) and held to a max of 70-72F through high krausen, after which the temp should be raised to 75-80F. This will give a great flavor profile without making the beer hot/solventy, something that can happen when the temperature is allowed to rise too high in the first few days of fermentation.

I think an oxygen source will be my next purchase. I had pitched at 68 degrees and let it free rise to that temp...after it started to dip I wrapped it in a thick blanket to help maintain that temp. After two days and a start to slowing signs of fermentation I had unwrapped it and let it crash. I think the primary reason it stopped was oxygenation or from unfermentables from extract. I regret not double checking the born on dates to verify...but more of a reason to try it again to get it right.

BeerMeDuffMan said:

I think the primary reason it stopped was oxygenation or from unfermentables from extract. I regret not double checking the born on dates to verify...but more of a reason to try it again to get it right.

Click to expand...

Not trying to be argumentative, but it is not the extract. The age of the extract has nothing to do with its fermentability...that is locked in when it is created by the maltster. Your Pils LME/DME would have to have an inordinate (unrealistic) amount of dextrin malt for this beer to finish at 1.020, if everything else was in order (O2 levels, yeast health/population, etc.). Old extract (LME) just gets stale from oxidation, fermentability doesn't change.

I agree it is most probably due to insufficient oxygen levels. Another possibility is pitch rate. You mentioned a 3L starter...was that on a stirplate? Are you sure your original smack pack was not long in the tooth?

It was no stir plate but plenty of shaking on the starter was done. The pack was dated two weeks prior to the starter date. It was most likely the oxygen levels. Think there will be an issue with bottle bombs or should I set this in the carbouy for a few months to bulk age? My plan was to bottle first week of October or last week in September.

Well depending on the extract company it could very well be the extract. Assuming a gravity at 1.090 or higher, his apparent attenuation isat almost 78% or better if his gravity was over 1.090. Using briess dme as an example the claim 75% as average fermentability of their extract. Other companies are are lower than that.

One way to tell is put a couple dashes of amylase enzyme in the fermentor. It can be purchased in small plastic bottles from most homebrew shops and most online retailers. You can be anal, and boil water then cool the water and dissolve the enzyme. I just put it right in. It will not go too far but it may get under 1.010. I had a batch do this to me when I screwed up the mash temp a bit, it stopped close to 1.022, and the amylase brought it down to 1.013.

As an aside, I don't really aerate this beer when I brew but I do kind of open ferment the beer. I need to do this again soon too.

smokinghole said:

Well depending on the extract company it could very well be the extract. Assuming a gravity at 1.090 or higher, his apparent attenuation isat almost 78% or better if his gravity was over 1.090. Using briess dme as an example the claim 75% as average fermentability of their extract. Other companies are are lower than that.

One way to tell is put a couple dashes of amylase enzyme in the fermentor. It can be purchased in small plastic bottles from most homebrew shops and most online retailers. You can be anal, and boil water then cool the water and dissolve the enzyme. I just put it right in. It will not go too far but it may get under 1.010. I had a batch do this to me when I screwed up the mash temp a bit, it stopped close to 1.022, and the amylase brought it down to 1.013.

As an aside, I don't really aerate this beer when I brew but I do kind of open ferment the beer. I need to do this again soon too.

Click to expand...

This may be a really good plan. I'm going to look into that.

Forgot to also mention it was Briess DME for the most part

Well with that said, I think it the extract. White labs lists their yeast at about 82% max apparent attenuation. Sure it can go higher in some instances but you are a C-hair under 78%. So combine the extract with specialty grains ( if you did the new world recipe or CSI's) and those last few points could just be longer sugars.

I wonder if you brought all your boil water up to about 150f and added the extract and amylase enzyme if it'd increase your wort fermentability after a 30min or rest. If it does it could be helpful for people brewing this recipe with extract.

You'd have to look it up but 150°F is way above the temperature optimum for a purified enzyme. It's probably a bit lower. The mash temperatures are higher because you need to gelatinze the starch.

That as a blanket statement is inaccurate. There are DNA enzymes used in PCR techniques which are purified enzymes. The cycling for PCR is quite high in order to split the double stranded dna. Yes, I will concede, apples to oranges, bit if amylase enzyme is active above say 143f, and dentures above about 160f, then how would 150f be too high for powdered amylase enzyme. I don't know if the stuff sold I beta or alpha but it should behave fine in the mid range of both. Mashing isn't just to gelatinize starch, the temp specs is for fine tuning the fermentation profile through the naturally occurring amylase from the malting process.

150°F is probably a good temperature if you want to get it done quickly anyway. There are also probably different amylases with varying thermostability.

smokinghole said:

That as a blanket statement is inaccurate. There are DNA enzymes used in PCR techniques which are purified enzymes. The cycling for PCR is quite high in order to split the double stranded dna. Yes, I will concede, apples to oranges, bit if amylase enzyme is active above say 143f, and dentures above about 160f, then how would 150f be too high for powdered amylase enzyme. I don't know if the stuff sold I beta or alpha but it should behave fine in the mid range of both. Mashing isn't just to gelatinize starch, the temp specs is for fine tuning the fermentation profile through the naturally occurring amylase from the malting process.

Click to expand...

Kary Mullis :heart:

You'll have to excuse my lack of detail and grammar I typed that on my phone at work. I was a biotech major. I made bacteria make stuff other organisms made in many labs.

BS Biology, Masters Molecular Bio here. Spent 4 years in a mycology lab rock on

You guys made my brain hurt with all that knowledge.

Would love to hear from others who have brewed this beer with extract and where the FG ended up.

Anybody???

+1 to that G. I'm also curious

g-star said:

Would love to hear from others who have brewed this beer with extract and where the FG ended up.

Anybody???

Click to expand...

My order of D-180 sugar comes in via ups on the 9th. Will probably brew the next day. Will advise

D180 was delicious. I came really close to just putting in a straw and sucking it down.

I'm happy to say I have this fermenting away. Can't wait to have the first one.
Adding the D180 was awesome. the change in color and armoa was great. I did the old world recipe and it was my first decoction. Pretty cool actually, but very time consuming. I did a 1.5 liter starter, decanted, then another 1.5L on top of it. I had to affix a blowoff tube to the starter!
And yes, I tasted the D180 just to see what it was like. I expected to be disgusted by it 'in the raw.' But it was pretty darn tasty!! Thanks for the work on this clone!

If I put this in my bourbon barrel should i do it before. during or after the 7 week aging period?

Excellent question. I would venture a guess and say use it as the seven week long aging process.

Brewed an extract version of this today! I'm excited. The D-180 was sinful....in a good way! Have a feeling I should have done a 10gal batch

I brewed this using the somewhat new strain wlp 545. It went from 1.090 to 1.007. This yeast is a monster. Hope it's not too dry! 10.71%!

My blowoff tube bucket sounds like a tiny motorboat driving in circles

Bombeque said:

I brewed this using the somewhat new strain wlp 545. It went from 1.090 to 1.007. This yeast is a monster. Hope it's not too dry! 10.71%!

Click to expand...

Im curious, what size starter did you make and how long did it take to get to FG.

Just bottled mine up today. 3787 took it down from 1.095 to 1.013 and it tasted great.

Mine has been kegged for a week @ 12.5 PSI. Cleaning the keg lines now and will give it a taste later today. I know it's not carbed yet so I'll give it a few weeks.

cjalderman said:

Just bottled mine up today. 3787 took it down from 1.095 to 1.013 and it tasted great.

Click to expand...

Regular bottles or heavy belgians? How many volumes of CO2?

g-star said:

No oxygen now, you'll just end up oxidizing the under-attenuated beer at this point.

Sounds like you had enough yeast, but for beers this big, you really need 1-2 min of pure O2, or at the very least 20min of air from a pump through a sintered stone. The shake and pray method has its limitations.

As an aside, maintaining a temp of 85F throughout is not a good idea either. This yeast will perform best if pitched cool (mid 60's) and held to a max of 70-72F through high krausen, after which the temp should be raised to 75-80F. This will give a great flavor profile without making the beer hot/solventy, something that can happen when the temperature is allowed to rise too high in the first few days of fermentation.

Click to expand...

You were totally right on this...I racked to a secondary container to hold the beer for a few months and activity started up again. The beer didn't have enough oxygen. Hopefully the little bit that entered the liquid with transfer won't cause over-oxidization. This is now on the move from 1.030 to 1.018 measured yesterday. This may be salvageable!

butterpants said:

Regular bottles or heavy belgians? How many volumes of CO2?

Click to expand...

Primed it for 3.2 vols and put it in regular bottles.

cjalderman said:

Primed it for 3.2 vols and put it in regular bottles.

Click to expand...

copy, thank you!

cjalderman said:

Primed it for 3.2 vols and put it in regular bottles.

Click to expand...

Most standard bottles reach their pressure limitation at about 2.9 vols.

CSI said:

Most standard bottles reach their pressure limitation at about 2.9 vols.

Click to expand...

I'm going the route of capped champagne bottles. No pressure issues and I think for a beer this nice, it's worth it.

Alright, so I brewed this beer on the 7th- all grain, old world recipe. cooled to 65*. OG 1.095 pitched my yeast. WLP530- 1.5L starter, decanted, then another 1.5L. I don't have an oxygen tank. Slowly increased temp about 2* per day. held at 79-80 once I got there. Cooled to 65 per recipe after 10 or 12d. gravity at 1.021 at this point. Taste is a little sweet and a little hot as one might expect.
At this point should I expect it to come down further? just move it to secondary and wait more? I swirled it a bit after I took my gravity sample and bumped the temp to 68-69. I have another vial of WLP530... would it be worth pitching it?
Thanks!

doc5md said:

Alright, so I brewed this beer on the 7th- all grain, old world recipe. cooled to 65*. OG 1.095 pitched my yeast. WLP530- 1.5L starter, decanted, then another 1.5L. I don't have an oxygen tank. Slowly increased temp about 2* per day. held at 79-80 once I got there. Cooled to 65 per recipe after 10 or 12d. gravity at 1.021 at this point. Taste is a little sweet and a little hot as one might expect.
At this point should I expect it to come down further? just move it to secondary and wait more? I swirled it a bit after I took my gravity sample and bumped the temp to 68-69. I have another vial of WLP530... would it be worth pitching it?
Thanks!

Click to expand...

Cooling it down before ensuring it was at FG was your mistake. It will be very difficult to wake the yeast up now that they have likely gone dormant. Pitching a fresh tube of yeast into a 9%+ ABV beer isn't likely to help much either. Your best hope would be to make a starter and pitch the whole thing at peak activity.

This strain can sometimes take a while to get the last 10-15 gravity points. The lesson here is to act based on real observations, not just by what the recipe says. I would also recommend pure oxygen if you're going to do big beers or lagers...makes a huge difference.

Agree on the point about maintaining higher temps until confirmation that it hit proper FG.

Not so sure about the pure oxygen. I've done many beers in the 8.5-12% ABV range and have never used oxygen. I do shake the crap out of them at the lower pitching temps (more O2 can be absorbed at lower temps), and also give my friends a healthy dose of yeast nutrient. But I have yet to have a stuck ferment or one that didn't go as low as I wanted.

All that said, I should try pure oxygen on some batches to see how it might contrast. Never really know until you try it yourself.

following