No Lager Lager

Hi, I can't recall where I crossed this information, but I heard that you can make some lagers (vienna, oktoberfest, marzen) without a cold lager period, but an extended fermentation at 50F.

This is pretty attractive to me, as it is getting warm outside and my only lager apparatus is a carboy in a sleeping bag in the bulkhead.

Has anybody heard of this, or, better yet, done this?

You can make it any way you like. "Lager" comes from "lagern" which is "to store." If you are okay with the results of a long fermentation at 50 degrees with no extended cold storage, great. Only way to know if you like it is to give it a shot.

You certainly can make lagers without lagering them. But they will be better for lagering. The lagering period (technically "cold storage") is where the lagers get that "crisp" clean finish that exemplifies a lager.

During lagering, lots of things are happening like polyphenols dropping out of the beer, and the beer becoming clearer. I like braukaiser's write up on brewing lagers, here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

Some people who can't lager in a carboy will lager the beer in bottles after the beer is carbed up. If you have room for that, it might be one way to get a more authentic tasting lager.

I'm brewing lagers because the crispness is my favorite part, so no cold storage, no crispness? I thought it was more of a function of the yeast & temps. If so, I'll just try the swamp cooler thing to knock off 5-10*F and keep 'em in the bulkhead.

Trust me, if I had room to lager the bottles in a fridge, that fridge would have a temp control and would be exclusively for lagering!

adrock430 said:

Trust me, if I had room to lager the bottles in a fridge, that fridge would have a temp control and would be exclusively for lagering!

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Having a lot of refrigeration power is a good thing for brewing lagers. My 15 cf chest freezer is the fermentation chamber. Plus I have an industrial restaurant-style stainless fridge (must be 40-something CF) for bottle and keg storage. The icing on the cake is a three-door Pepsi cooler we are moving into the garage soon. It alone should give us about 1,000 bottles worth of storage.

If that's not enough I can always use my wife's stainless basement fridge...but she gets ornery when my 120cf of beer refrigeration is insufficient...

Just my 2 cents. I would think fermenting at 50 degrees is more of a steam style beer. Anything in the 40's or below is a lager. That's putting it in simple terms.

shadows69 said:

Just my 2 cents. I would think fermenting at 50 degrees is more of a steam style beer. Anything in the 40's or below is a lager. That's putting it in simple terms.

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50 degrees is a very common fermentation temperature for lagers and is right in the wheelhouse for most lager yeasts. It certainly will not yield beers with a "steam" character.

I set up a swamp cooler for my lagers. We have an upcoming bout with 75 weather, so I may pull my doppelbock after 6 weeks of lagering (sad, I know).

Bulkhead will probably get to upper fifties during that stretch, so I hope I can keep my vienna smash in the low 40's.

You can make something quickly with WLP833 at 50-55F assuming you pitch correctly. There's an episode of Brewing TV, #34,where they drink half of a 10 gallon batch young after 10 days in the keg and then lager the rest. This only really works with lager yeasts that don't throw tons of sulfur, oxygenate well and pitch 5 degrees lower than your target temp and you should be golden.

Only have a cake of 830 right now, and the only lager I used 833 on is the one that has been lagering the longest, damn!

Any harm in a short term spike in temp, to the high 50's range when lagering?

shadows69 said:

Just my 2 cents. I would think fermenting at 50 degrees is more of a steam style beer. Anything in the 40's or below is a lager. That's putting it in simple terms.

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"steam" beers are beers with lager yeast fermented at ale temps, or between 65-70. Lagers are fermented between 45-55, so his lager is right where it should be for fermenting.

adrock430 said:

Damn, only have a cake of 830 right now, and the only lager I used 833 on is the one that has been lagering the longest, damn!

Any harm in a short term spike in temp, to the high 50's range when lagering?

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Ever heard of a diacetyl rest?

bethebrew said:

Ever heard of a diacetyl rest?

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I have and I did

osagedr said:

Having a lot of refrigeration power is a good thing for brewing lagers. My 15 cf chest freezer is the fermentation chamber. Plus I have an industrial restaurant-style stainless fridge (must be 40-something CF) for bottle and keg storage. The icing on the cake is a three-door Pepsi cooler we are moving into the garage soon. It alone should give us about 1,000 bottles worth of storage.

If that's not enough I can always use my wife's stainless basement fridge...but she gets ornery when my 120cf of beer refrigeration is insufficient...

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Props for using the word ornery! I got to start telling my gf she's acting ornery when she does. I am sure it will go over well. Thanks

adrock430 said:

I have and I did

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It sounds like you did an extra one during the lagering period. Double chance to get rid of diacetyl?

adrock430 said:

Only have a cake of 830 right now, and the only lager I used 833 on is the one that has been lagering the longest, damn!

Any harm in a short term spike in temp, to the high 50's range when lagering?

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830 actually works fairly well for steam beers, at 65-68 degrees, or at least that's what the equivalent wyeast strain claims. I've got one in primary right now that I pitched the dry equivalent 34/70 into.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=30

The first all-grain batch I made 2 months ago was Midwest's American Cream Ale with US-05. Once it was carbed I threw half in the fridge (32*) and let the other half age at 62*. After a week the ones I threw in the fridge were a dead ringer for an American lager. It was very crisp and refreshing with very little in the way of fruity notes that you'd expect from a normal ale. Little malt and very clean and prominent hop profile. I am not sure if it was the lagering, the yeast, the light grain bill, or what but the results fooled many of my friends into thinking it was a lager.

Don't know if it help but good luck!

Thanks for the feed back. I'm still leaning. I just thought a "true" lager was done in the 30's to get that crispness. That's what I did with the last 12 batches I made. I realize you can do a lager in the 50's but didn't think it would be the same hence the "steam" style.

shadows69 said:

Thanks for the feed back. I'm still leaning. I just thought a "true" lager was done in the 30's to get that crispness. That's what I did with the last 12 batches I made. I realize you can do a lager in the 50's but didn't think it would be the same hence the "steam" style.

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The "steam" characteristic would come from fermentation temperature, not storage temperature. Having said that, you are correct that extended storage (lagering) in the 30's is believed by many lager brewers to have benefits in terms of achieving "crispness."

Thanks for the input...bethebrew: I now get what you're saying.

My plan: Still going to continue lagering the doppel and vienna with a swamp cooler, if the temp gets high, it gets high. I figure that it will be pretty forgiving due to the temp stabilization from the water.

For the marzen fermenting now, I'm going to rack to a secondary after fermentation as usual, but will have an extended secondary at cellar temps (around 50-55). I'm going to do a Baltic porter with cardamon/anise with the 830 cake and do the same. I'll follow-up when I get to tasting. Thanks all

I've got a malty Vienna Lager kegged right now, and it needs another month of lagering to be great. The crisp clean lager character takes time to get, however the beer is quite tasty now, just not "lager clean". And the higher the OG, the longer you need to lager it.