Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

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solavirtus said:
I'm not sure about how the FG is lower sometimes than others, my first back of graff is still in the primary. But as far as yeast attenuation, I would say that since most of the sugars in this recipe are really simple (like from apple juice) then almost all yeast strains are going to eat it up pretty easily, and leave very little residuals sugars. The attenuation range given for yeast is calculated using some standard malted grain wort, not something full of simple sugars like in apple juice. This has definitely been my experience with cider/juice-based fermentations. My first try I did a split batch with highly attenuative yeast, and one with a much lower attenuation, and they finished at the same FG.

Thanks, SV. I went ahead and bottled, so we'll see. I used carbonation drops, another first for me.
 
So everyone is stating that it tastes pretty good right off the bat after carbing it and aging around 2-3 weeks. I brewed it on Oct. 31st and kegged it on the 18th of Nov. So it has only been in the keg about a week and a half but it is no where near good yet. I'm hoping I didn't do anything wrong but I don't how as it's a pretty easy recipe to follow. I used Safale us-05 for it if that matters. It has a really tart and tangy finish and isn't very good at all in my oppinion.
Is it just still too young or did I do something wrong possibly? I plan on letting it just sit in my kegerator for another 2-3 weeks and then taste it again and hope for the best.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do have some questions to help us help you -

  • What don't you like about it, specifically, beyond "tart and tangy"? Can you describe what it tastes like a little more?
  • Did you follow Brandon's recipe, or make modifications? How much of what kind of hops did you use, and how early/late into the boil?
  • I use US-05, Nottingham, and champagne yeast when I make cider and Graff, always with excellent results. What was the OG and FG?
  • One other question that comes to mind, and I don't mean to sound obtuse, but do you like hard cider in the first place? (if so, do you like fairly dry cider? and/or back-sweetened?) The best beet and turnip ice cream recipe in the world is still going to taste like ass to me.
 
Mine smells a little of sulfur, a bit of spice and apple and tastes like vague apple up front with citrusy tones on the finish and boozey I guess and very bitter on the finish.
Most cider's I have had are sweeter. This one is slightly sweet at the front and then finish gets quite bitter.
I followed the recipe exactly how the OP made the recipe. I used US-05. I did not take a OG and FG unfortunately.
While Ciders are not my favorite I can drink them and they are decently pleasant, just not my favorite drink. I have had the wife, as well as some siblings taste it and all have the same feel about it.... bitter, not very sweet and "tastes off".
I believe I used Ahtanum hops.
 
Decided I would bottle this tonight. Started prepping bottles, boiled some priming sugar, started cleaning the bottling bucket... and then remembered I only have like 10 bottle caps left. Guess I'm waiting until later in the week.
 
Brewed this up last week, took my OG after cooling down the wort and prior to adding the apple juice. My OG was 1.080, wondering if I should have taken the OG after adding the Apple Juice. I did use LME instead of DME since that was available at my LHBS. Was going to take another gravity reading tomorrow wondering where I should expect it to be at, or should I wait to take a gravity reading until next week when I approach 2 weeks of fermentation.
 
Brewed this up last week, took my OG after cooling down the wort and prior to adding the apple juice. My OG was 1.080, wondering if I should have taken the OG after adding the Apple Juice. I did use LME instead of DME since that was available at my LHBS. Was going to take another gravity reading tomorrow wondering where I should expect it to be at, or should I wait to take a gravity reading until next week when I approach 2 weeks of fermentation.

You took an OG measurement of a gallon of wort containing just the Crystal and LME? You're right, it should have included the juice. No big deal... just let it sit for the full two weeks before mucking with readings, then check every day for a few days to make sure it's not falling any further. There's no real point in measuring it today.
 
Made some up two weeks ago. This is the our first attempt at brewing anything up and we are extremely happy how it came out so far. We moved it from the primary to a secondary last night as we needed the primary for another brew and our bottles hadn't come in yet. We took a drink in the process and loved the taste. The thing we found is we really didnt taste much Apple in it. Does it seem the Apple taste comes as it ages? I saw an Apple Extract I could add before bottling so that could be a solution. I used Motts from the store so I don't know if that could have effected anything. Also when the bottles come in I plan on using Coopers Carbonation drops. Has anyone used those and if so what are your opinion on them?
 
Congrats on your first brew goaliemanpat, welcome! You've found the right place for all kinds of info, as I'm sure you've seen.

The apple flavour is present, if not strong. Certainly nowhere near what a glass of apple juice has. I would definitely not recommend boosting it, you'll come to appreciate the subtlety.

Various types of apple juice don't seem to affect it a lot. I think most just pick up whatever tin cans of pure juice (no sugar added) are on sale at the time. No need for plastic bottles, they're more convenient for putting back in the fridge, but you're going to pour it all out at once, right?

I've never used the carbonation drops. I'm sure they work fine, and might simplify things a bit, but they seem to me to be an unnecessary item to need to have on hand. I've already got the dextrose on hand.
 
Just brewed my 3rd batch of this. I always forget just how dang easy it is! Why do I not have this in the pipeline all the time?

goaliemanpat, I've used Motts juice all three times, it works great. The first batch was bottled and delicious. The second batch was kegged and sweetened with an extra can of AJ concentrate. That batch was a little sweet for most beer drinkers tastes but a huge hit with the Smirnoff drinking lady-folk. After your first batch feel free to experiment all kinds of ways.
 
@Knot, I was just looking on here actually to see if anyone had ideas on how to sweeten this just a bit. I don't want it super sweet but just a bit sweeter would be nice i think for the wife and others that like this type of cider. So, you said a can of AJ concentrate was too sweet so you think half a can might be best? or what do you think? Just add 1/3 can and mix it together and taste then add more if needed? Any other ideas on sweetner?
Thanks!
 
Matteo57 said:
@Knot, I was just looking on here actually to see if anyone had ideas on how to sweeten this just a bit. I don't want it super sweet but just a bit sweeter would be nice i think for the wife and others that like this type of cider. So, you said a can of AJ concentrate was too sweet so you think half a can might be best? or what do you think? Just add 1/3 can and mix it together and taste then add more if needed? Any other ideas on sweetner?
Thanks!

Are you kegging your cider? That's the only way I know to sweeten it. While kegging add some potassium sorbate and Camden tablets to kill the yeast. Then add your half can of AJ concentrate and get your keg shake on until its all mixed in and try it out. Once it's sweet to your liking hit it with the CO2 and enjoy once carbed. If you are bottling you'd have to look up how to pasteurize the bottles to keep them from exploding.
 
I have it kegged right now and carbed up. It still needs some time to condition. Still doesn't taste up to where it should imo. So, I couldn't pop the top on the keg and throw in a bit of the AJ concentrate and then put the top back up and plug it with c02 then slowly mix it up a bit and go with it that way?
 
Matteo57 said:
I have it kegged right now and carbed up. It still needs some time to condition. Still doesn't taste up to where it should imo. So, I couldn't pop the top on the keg and throw in a bit of the AJ concentrate and then put the top back up and plug it with c02 then slowly mix it up a bit and go with it that way?

If you keep it cold you will probably be ok. Adding more sugar now runs the risk of the yeast waking up and causing a ruckus if the keg gets warm. Otherwise you might as well try it, it's going to be kind of foamy after you shake it all up.
 
I made a Ffarg. It's the exact opposite of Graff. 2 gallons juice and four pounds DME with 1/2 lb. Crystal 120l, boiled 1 oz. Willamette 4.8%aa for one hour for a 5 gallon batch.

Graff is a good cider but Ffarg is much more to my liking.
 
I made a Ffarg. It's the exact opposite of Graff. 2 gallons juice and four pounds DME with 1/2 lb. Crystal 120l, boiled 1 oz. Willamette 4.8%aa for one hour for a 5 gallon batch.

Graff is a good cider but Ffarg is much more to my liking.

Interesting... what's the ballpark ABV? How would you compare the two, taste-wise?
 
My estimated OG was supposed to be 1.050-55 but I forgot to take gravity until the next day and it was 1.044. It finished at 1.010.

It's still not carbed up fully but I like my graff with a very light carb anyway. The Ffarg is more like an apple ale. It's maltier with less tartness and more rounded apple presence.

Give it a try and let me know what you think.
 
I brewed 5 gallons of this 3 weeks ago. I wanted it ready for a holiday party for tomorrow night. I was really nervous right out of primary because despite all accounts, it was not tasting good. Very foul smell right out of primary, extremely potent sour taste. Fast forward a week (tonight) after kegging and carbing and it's super, super good.

I made it to the recipe, with 120L Crystal instead of 60L (based on his comment if using store bought juice). I used 4 gallons of WalMart 100% juice.

It's super strong, and super good. I would say it's on the sour side of the spectrum, but I like sour drinks to begin with, but it's got a good beer body and feel as well.

I think people's biggest hang up with this drink will be if they are handed a glass and take a swig the cider will catch them totally off guard, since it looks like a beer, but will hit them hard with a cider punch. It won't matter though because after just a few gulps the 7.5% ABV will kick in and it'll be lights out before they know it.

I'm immediately going to brew a second batch as soon as I have the time, since I'm 100% sure my holiday party will consume the whole 5 gallons, or however much is left after I'm done tonight (4.5 gallons maybe???).
 
So I brewed this up three weeks ago, and kegged it tonight. Holy **** this stuff is good! I ended up boiling off too much wort so my final count was around 4.5 gallons instead of 5, and that extra half gallon made this stuff STRONG! It's a it dry, citrusy, appley, and fantastic! Can't wait to just demolish the keg!

FWIW I changed the recipe a bit, using more Crystal and a few other specialties I had lying around. I used Cascade for my hop of choice, but the idea to mix malt and apple is all Brandon O's :)
 
I made a Ffarg. It's the exact opposite of Graff. 2 gallons juice and four pounds DME with 1/2 lb. Crystal 120l, boiled 1 oz. Willamette 4.8%aa for one hour for a 5 gallon batch.

Graff is a good cider but Ffarg is much more to my liking.


You should post the full Ffarg recipe.
 
I just realized I made a mistake on this most recent batch. My brain misfired and I put the whole 1oz of 5% cascade hops into the boil instead of just .5oz. I was already planning on back sweetening it but should i still be expecting it to need extra extra extra aging to let the hops die down a bit?
 
I just realized I made a mistake on this most recent batch. My brain misfired and I put the whole 1oz of 5% cascade hops into the boil instead of just .5oz. I was already planning on back sweetening it but should i still be expecting it to need extra extra extra aging to let the hops die down a bit?

I wouldn't worry about it. I made a batch with an ounce of Cascade in October and sucked it down just as soon after bottling it as my other batches.
 
I wouldn't worry about it. I made a batch with an ounce of Cascade in October and sucked it down just as soon after bottling it as my other batches.

Good to hear. I am planning on kegging it this weekend and bringing it to a new years party the following weekend... I'll probably wait until everyone's had a drink or two first so their senses are dulled and then start handing out the knockout juice and see what happens.
 
Good to hear. I am planning on kegging it this weekend and bringing it to a new years party the following weekend... I'll probably wait until everyone's had a drink or two first so their senses are dulled and then start handing out the knockout juice and see what happens.

It's just one of those things where you go with your gut and your palate. Since it's not a clone of anything, nobody is going to say "man, this is hoppier than I expected it to be". Keg it, carb it, and taste it. Taste good? Then it's ready to go. Too green? Then start with some hoppy beer and switch to graff and nobody will notice.

I know folks age graff, but I haven't bothered, because it tastes great the day I bottle it. Would it taste better after a month? Sure, I guess, but I've never had any last long enough to find out! :D

Of course, my opinions are just that.
 
I'm a newb with this and am wondering about pasturizing. Do I need to do that with cider? Another thread I read on here says I need to watch out for shrapnel if I don't.
 
I'm a newb with this and am wondering about pasturizing. Do I need to do that with cider? Another thread I read on here says I need to watch out for shrapnel if I don't.

It depends on what you start with and what ingredients you use. You shouldn't need to pasteurize any juice you use if you buy juice that's already been pasteurized. And you're boiling the "partial mash" portion of the recipe, so that's clean. I would suggest boiling, or at least pasteurizing any juice or cider you use that hasn't already been through that.

:drunk:
 
I'm a newb with this and am wondering about pasturizing. Do I need to do that with cider? Another thread I read on here says I need to watch out for shrapnel if I don't.

Sorry for the lame question, but what are you talking about, shrapnel?
 
Well I followed the recipe and did not boil my " pasteurized" apple juice, just added to fermentor with my boiled wort. At about 1.5 months in I noticed some build up in the bottles that did not look like yeast, at 2 months the infection was so bad half of a 22oz bottle was full of some sort of floating masses. Mind you that when bottled it was as clear as any beer I've made. They tasted fine but after the 1.5 mark I wouldn't touch them... So I would boil your juice for at least 15-30min to insure nothing is still in it or on the lip of the container, etc.
 
What Richwerth is talking about is sweetening his cider and pastuerizing after it is bottled so that he can have bottled and carbonated cider without the use of kegging equipment.

Is that correct Rich?
 
Rich, an easy way to get a little sweeter product without worrying about bottle bombs is to use a lower attenuating yeast and use more caramel malt.

My suggestion is to try the recipe as listed, prime and bottle as you normally would. After you taste the first batch you can tweek the next one with more caramel malt or a different yeast.
 
I just realized I made a mistake on this most recent batch. My brain misfired and I put the whole 1oz of 5% cascade hops into the boil instead of just .5oz. I was already planning on back sweetening it but should i still be expecting it to need extra extra extra aging to let the hops die down a bit?

Just put on another batch tonight (was mulling some wine, and felt like doing a brew!) and had .5 oz of chinook, a personal favorite hop; it's about 12%, so we'll see how it goes! I've made about half a dozen batches of this, but always stuck with a noble hop like fuggles, or NZ Hallertau. We'll see how the extra bitterness works.
 
knotquiteawake said:
I just realized I made a mistake on this most recent batch. My brain misfired and I put the whole 1oz of 5% cascade hops into the boil instead of just .5oz. I was already planning on back sweetening it but should i still be expecting it to need extra extra extra aging to let the hops die down a bit?

I Kegged it and sweetened it with a full can of AJ concentrate (SWMBO demanded it), it's really good. Like a tart AJ soda, almost no hint of alcohol. The hops leave a slight green hoppyness on the back of the throat though. Had I used a half oz like I intended this would not be there.
 
first batch in the fermenter tonight! i went "all grain":

1 pound c-120
1 oz torrified wheat
4 pounds briess 2 row
s-04 yeast
.5 oz golding hops
 
Noob here. so i followed brandons recipe exactly. My first time ever using dry yeast (safale-05). pitched the dry yeast directly out of packet(as per instructed from brew store) at 72 degrees F. into glass carboy that had been fully sanitized in iodaphor solution overnight then left to drain. less than 12 hours later theres about 20-30 small white "mold" looking spots directly below the blow off tube stopper at top of glass carboy. could it be that a few granules of yeast got stuck on there and started to grow? and if thats the case, am I at risk of losing my first batch of graff due to infection? i would hope and imagine that if its the same yeast there wont be any problems

also in my experience (only 3 ale batches...brown ale, ESB, and Apricot IPA) when i use white labs liquid ale yeast i notice much more krausen activity. its been almost 48 hours since i pitched yeast into the graff and theres been minimal krausen. i used a blowoff tube thinking it would go crazy with all the sugars from the AJ but it has not even come close to blowing out. is this normal for graff vs. ales? also could this be because i used dry yeast directly pitched vs. liquid yeast?
 
cant really comment on the infection part of this but ciders have MUCH less activity than beers do... you wont see much Krausen buildup etc.
 
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