The Broken Robot eBrewery, oh me, oh my.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Chriso

Broken Robot Brewing Co.
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Messages
4,618
Reaction score
89
Location
Someplace
Folks, it's time for me to climb on the Electric horse. I hate brewing outdoors using propane in a state that Has Real Seasons and with no garage to seek shelter in.

I'm going to need a bit of help as we go, for I have a deep fear of electrics, and will be battling some demons while I try to build this rig.

My current skill level? Well, I did build a 120mm fan based Stir Plate and it still works four years later, but it's far from perfect, and trying to wire it together was a test of my patience. I did also manage to wire up a light switch to a dryer motor to create my milling station ( https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/motorizing-maltmill-guidance-needed-79853/index2.html#post3694871 ) which after 16 batches is still running great and has not caught fire or anything yet!

I do not have suitable electric outlets in what will eventually be my brew room. I have already talked to a local electrician/homebrewer about what it will take to upgrade my house's electric service (currently 100A, glass screw-in fuses) for at least 150A with breakers, if not 200A, and then additionally to run a new line into the brew room and set up a spa panel with GFCI. However, I am planning to wait on upgrading the electric until I have actually bought & built most of the gear (I don't want to spend a couple grand on electric service upgrade only to give up on the project!!).

So... let's talk about function. What do I want to control, and for what purpose?

1. I have a stand-alone pre-built Electric HLT from Brewmation which runs on 220V/30A. It has 2x 3000W elements, and holds 18 gallons, it has a temp probe and a liquid level safety switch, and is controlled by a Love controller. I have never used it, it is still new in box. I will need to decide if I want to have two outlets on my Spa Panel - one for the HLT and one for the Control Panel - or whether I want to plug the HLT *into* the Control Panel.

2. I plan to re-use my current Mash Tun, which is a 60qt, I think, rectangle Cooler with a stainless braid. I do not plan to add any electric components to the MLT - If I do any sort of temperature stepping, it will likely be by using a HEX coil and pumping wort through it. This is not a hard-set requirement, but I think I would eventually like to be able to step mash or mash out.

3. I plan to use a 60qt Aluminum Stockpot as my BK. I just picked up a spare. My "old" one is a Sam's Club/Thunder Group aluminum 60qt with straight edges and reasonably thin walls. I like how lightweight it is, and think I will probably keep using the "old" thin one as my Propane kettle.
My "new" kettle which is actually second-hand from a restaurant, is a Wear-Ever 60qt NSF-listed with rolled top edges and much thicker walls. I like the idea of this being my electric vessel since it's already well battle-tested and I won't be lifting it during use.

4. I have one March pump right now. In a very long-term sense I would like to get a second pump, for convenience & ability to pump ice water & wort through CFC at the same time. This is not a priority - I would see adding that upgrade after having paid off most of the electric brewery purchases that I'll need to make during this project. But I need to buy the right busses, etc. to allow adding wiring at a later date, and layout the panel with a blank spot for later upgrade.

So, in terms of individual sub-projects that I need to devise a plan for, I need to.....

A. Buy components, cut holes in the kettle, mount, and test the:
i. BK Liquid out ball valve. This, I can do on my own. I promise.
ii. BK Electric element. What type, how many watts?
iii. BK Sight glass, IF desired.
iv. BK temp probe, IF desired. I plan to chill via CFC recirculating back into the kettle. I would like to add a temp probe so that I can monitor how far down my temps have come directly on the control panel (without using a $15 Wal-Mart temp probe or similar). It would not need to be a controlling temp sensor, just a read-only. I am not sure if that makes any difference in what electronic component to order, or whether it brings the price down at all.

In theory, after completing Step A, and getting the necessary electric service run into my brew room as well as spa panel/GFCI mounted in place, I could feasibly brew beer by simply plugging the HLT and/or BK into the Spa Panel, bypassing any sort of control or monitoring. Right?

B. Make final decisions on what the Control Panel "will DO" or will have mounted on it -- and then begin buying components.
i. Main Power On switch + Main Power On indicator light.
ii. Boil Kettle On switch? Do I want a power % knob or controller?
iii. Do I want to build in a timer, even if the timer doesn't control anything? Incorporate an Alarm into the timer? No? Hm.....
iv. Pump 1 On/Off switch.
v. (space for later addition of Pump 2 On/Off switch)
vi. Temperature display for BK Temp Probe - no control, just a monitor
vii. Volts and/or Amps real time display? Just for monitoring system.
viii. Include a Power On/Off for the HLT and run both HLT+BK through Control Panel? OR, exclude HLT and simply remember (on my own) not to power on the HLT and the BK simultaneously?
ix. Do I want an eStop switch? or just use the Master Power on/off switch for this?

C. Physical accomodations... get the service upgraded, new panel installed, new spa sub-panel installed, open up the ceiling in the brew room to look at how I can mount an exhaust duct without having to go through concrete block foundation. Put up some FRP panels in the brew corner, remove the carpet, put down some concrete sealer or something. Design & mount the exhaust system. Build a brew table for the equipment to sit on. Find a location for the Control Panel and mount it. Basically, everything that makes it a real functioning brew room and not just equipment storage.

So. Uhm. That's a lot of info. I should balance it out with some pictures, shouldn't I?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How I feel right now about this project, even after lots of reading others' build threads:


My pre-existing 18 Gallon HLT:




Some of the most recent threads I've been following, to try to figure out what all this magic I'm looking at is, (and also to help me find the links later at home!) are:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/spa-panel-wiring-dummies-266751/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/suggestions-controller-249400/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/bolts-electric-brewery-build-335868/ This guy puts me to shame!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electrical-primer-brewers-145019/ But, of course! :p
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/bayou-classic-electric-kettles-363439/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/2-pid-50a-control-panel-design-check-337782/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-full-electric-build-thread-230849/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/bayou-classic-electric-kettles-363439/ inspiration & ideas...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-all-new-electric-bcs-460-brewery-349777/ especially stand design ideas
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/highgravitys-new-single-vessel-controller-ebc-sv-357594/ easy way out, if I decide I don't care about control panel...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/maxout-brew-station-256435/ for general inspiration, even though not electric
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/brew-magic-basement-brewery-303647/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/fuzzy-logic-brewery-288498/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/hoppos-e-brewery-build-283510/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/vent-hood-exhaust-fan-minimum-cfm-265731/
 
So... wow... that's a lot to mull over. I understand as I'm in the same boat - I've orderd most of my parts and have about 400 diagrams on every piece of scrap paper I can find. I'll have a post soon enough...

To address some of your questions: Definitely go with a panel mount e-Stop - why worry about running over to your Spa Panel in an emergency - if there's enough need to kill power instantly, every second counts.

I would not try and run the BK or HLT directly off the spa panel without some type of control. You _COULD_ do it in theory and unplug it and plug it back in repeatedly during the boil, but most folks seem to run at about 50-65% duty cycle when it comes to maintaining boil, and those that have forgotten to dial down from 100% have experienced violent boils - unless you act as the duty cycle, you're going to have issues and be unhappy.

Regarding the timer - I had that debate but got 2 of the PID / Timer combos for 3 of my PIDs. Then I can have a timer for the BK or the HLT. The PID for the MLT is just for information and won't actually control anything. I'm using SWA-2451 (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=239) to do it.

Regarding a temperature sensor in the BK - if you plan to have any sort of control of the boil intensity, you need a temperature probe hooked into the PID or the BCS or whatever you actually plan to use to modulate the temperature. That is, unless you go with the plug in / unplug method we discussed earlier. True, it would tell you the temp as you cool, but more importantly it would help you maintain a steady boil.

You're on the right path it seems. Start building piece by piece and you'll have it together soon enough!

-Kevin
 
Thanks for the feedback Kevin, I should elaborate on one thing -- the HLT does have built in control already present - but my comment regarding plugging the BK directly into the spa panel was more for my own understanding of where I would be at, in the total process, at that point. I am definitely not thinking that plugging the element into the spa panel at 100% power is the "solution" - just sort of a "By now, you should be X far along the road" landmark, I guess?

I'm not as far along as you, as I have ordered zero parts thus far. :) I confess, I still don't really understand how PID's work exactly, or what the difference between SSRs and Contactors are, or what alternatives there are to a PID. Some of that might just come to me as I see the project come together, I think I'm still stuck in the early concept stages and so I can't see how it will all work together yet.

I figured that an eStop "could" (but I didn't say Should!) be eliminated because if I want to kill the power, I could use the Main Power On/Off switch to do so... right? Also, I intend to mount the control box right next to the spa panel, so hopefully I would not have far to reach - but I definitely understand the logic behind your input on that - and agree that an eStop switch would be a low-cost, high-return feature to include on the panel. Especially since I don't think I will be short on panel space, since I'm 'doing so little' to control my brewery, basically just turning pumps on and off, and modulating the intensity of my boil... and I think that's all unless I start to add automation?

In fact... I guess I might be overthinking it... let's pretend I wanted to go as low-tech as possible... so correct me if I'm wrong but if I used a kitchen timer not-integrated ... and if I stuck a regular thermometer into the BK to monitor temps... as long as i had some sort of power control - a manual PWM circuit, I think?? - then theoretically I wouldn't need a PID at all. Right?


I still can't figure out whether this means I should plug the HLT into the control panel (which means buying an extra receptacle, cutting an extra hole, etc.) even though it won't really "integrate" into the panel, with having it's own discrete temp. controller built-in. I'm trying to think... if the HLT draws 30A, and the BK element is also sized for 30A, then at minimum I would need to put a three-way toggle switch in to control whether power is being routed to HLT - OFF - or to BK. But if I want to run them simultaneously, this means that the service running into the Control Panel will need to be at least 60A and thus require far more expensive components, right?

The GE-brand Spa Panel w/ GFCI that everybody recommends is rated for only 50A ... so this means I'd need a Spa Panel of a higher amperage, if I want to plug in and run both my standalone HLT + my controller and boil kettle, right?

So is it as simple as buying a 60A panel instead - like this: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...Id=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.UJlqV8WSq3I - and then making sure that my electrician knows that I'll be running 2x 30A loads on one panel?


It's so easy for me to get lost within the whole scope of this project - when you add up every last component & consideration, it becomes far more than I can wrap my head around - which is why I needed to start breaking it down into bite-sized pieces that I can understand...... Sheesh. :)

I think I should probably sit down and figure out the details of the BK element, mounting, and wiring, as a first step.

Once I have a mostly-assembled BK, then it seems logical to start thinking about the spa panel & total power capabilities... then once that is sorted out, I should probably build the control panel around the same time I have my electrician actually perform the service upgrade... Then last, the in-room build stuff like waterproof panels, furniture, venting, etc.

(But of course what I really want to do is to work on designing the control panel because I want to pick out fancy switches and print labels and so forth. Must focus! Stay with it Chriso! Start with your kettle, you hyperactive buffoon.)

Also, when I'm back home tonight, I will take some pics of the space I am hoping to convert to dedicated brewspace. I am fortunate in that it's only about 10'-15' away from the main service panel in the house. We will have to drill a couple holes through concrete in order to run some new conduit, but it should not be too big of a deal. That's exactly why I plan to pay my electrician to do the hardest parts of the job.
 
Good luck. Most of us started just where your at. Take your time and before you know it you will be able to sit back and enjoy a beer admiring all the fun/hard work that went into its perfection
 
Okay so I'm having a HECK of a time trying to search for, specifically, JUST the kettle element instructions.

I found this but it starts after already having assembled the kettle cord & element! https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/my-electric-brewery-build-364137/#post4540206

I found this one but it's only focusing on the controller, not the BK+Element. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/electric-boil-kettle-338498/

Also found this but it's 120V and goes straight to the already-assembled step. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/12...-electric-brew-kettle-bazooka-pellets-325650/

Am I not finding a DIY Thread discussing how to do this, because this step is covered in Kal's eBook which everybody bought? I know I need to buy it & read it, I just haven't yet, because I figured I'd use that in the Control Panel stage of building, not way back here in the Boil Kettle Building stage.

Actually, I think I just confirmed my own question reading here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/element-ok-5500watt-340461/#post4242875 - "I followed Kal's element mounting plan, except I used a single gang box instead of a double gang box (either way works), and used the SS nut and o-ring from Bargain Fittings to seal things up from the inside instead of using the McMaster o-ring on the outside like Kal does."

So yes. I need to buy the damn book already. Quit being cheap, Chriso! Bad newb!

And bonus, I just answered my PID vs PWM question here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/m...-pid-ssr-build-281085/index2.html#post4232969 and also post #48, two further down. ... I could simply use a PWM, but I'd have to build it. Since I don't know how to solder, and don't think I can do circuit-board level building, then I should just get a PID and be done with it. ... Right?


Conceptually speaking, I still think my biggest question is what to do about powering the HLT..... directly into the Spa Panel or route it through the Control Panel..... vexing. Most folks don't have a turn-key HLT to work with! I guess I shouldn't "complain" about having this issue!
 
After a little consideration, I might go with one of Kal's pre-wired Element Kits. It looks way more nicely built than I think I can do, and is still pretty affordable. I need to crunch the numbers on trying to order the raw parts, to see how much extra I'm looking at - but at least between his pre-assembled and DIY kits, it's only $50 extra to know I have it done right the first time.

heating_elements_front320.jpg


I just bought the book and am waiting for the link to show up, so I will soon have LOTS more reading material to look over. Thanks again for your help & encouragement so far, folks - Do give me any input you have, either in general, or especially pertaining to how to incorporate the pre-built HLT into the mix.
 
Let's talk tools for a second. I have very, very few tools. But what I do have, are... a bunch of spade bits... my wife's very nice DeWalt cordless drill... a Dremel...

... and a Greenlee 39860 "standard industrial knockout punch set" which includes a 5004003 1-1/4" punch. The Electric Brewery site calls for "chassis or radio (not conduit!) punch" ... Did I just luck out in a big way, by having the punch I need on hand?

I also have an Irwin brand 1-1/8" step bit but no love there, as the instructions say I need 1-3/8" size. Oh well. If I luck out on the punch, I'm happy to buy the step bit.

I'm ashamed to say it but on both my old 7.5gal Stainless kettle and also my Thunder 60qt Aluminum kettle, I drilled my holes for my ball valves using a wood spade bit. Yeah, I know. I couldn't even be bothered to buy a metal-use bit. The aluminum worked out okay, the stainless was barely able to be saved... I had to use oversized washers & O-rings to cover up my messy work.

No soldering iron though.... I guess I'll have to bug my friends & family to see who of them knows how to solder wire. I have tried many times before and failed miserably. Usually results in a bunch of wasted solder, multiple burns, and a bunch of burnt components.
 
Measure the punch. It could be a conduit punch which would make a hole larger than 1.25". If it is a radio chassis punch it will measure 1.25".

Im suprised you got through a stainless kettle with a spade bit. It looks like that punch set also includes a 7/8" punch. If they are infact chassis punches then that size is perfect for 1/2" npt fittings
 
I've been getting into this a little as well (really making a eHERMS of SORTS), and my only advice would be to read a LOT, the answers are there, take it slow, and don't rush to buy things. I rushed my purchases and wound up making numerous buys from ebrewsupply and bargainfittings (both are great vendors that I recommend) when I realized I was missing a switch, relay, indicator, etc etc etc. Probably spent a lot on shipping that I didn't need to.
 
AWESOME. Thanks OMJ - That's exactly what I needed - It measures bang-on 1.25" as precisely as I can tell with a standard tape measure. Granted, the picture I took makes it look like it's wayyy off, but I assure you that's just the lens perspective, it's just a cell phone camera shot.
img20121106162329.jpg


In the box, I have 1-1/2" ... 1-1/4" ... 1-1/8" ... 1" ... 3/4" ... and a 1/2" COND(uit?) which I don't think belongs in this set at all. Amazingly.... my measuring tape says it's 7/8", the size you were talking about.
So perhaps whoever used to have this set, lost their 7/8" and replaced it with a 1/2" conduit punch to get the same result? EDIT: I cross-refed the part number, it just appears to be dual application - it DOES match the p/n for a 7/8" punch. SWEET, it's a full & complete set!


You are right about the steel kettle. Granted it was "only" a Bayou Classic 30qt that came with my turkey fryer burner kit. But still, it took me a number of wood spade bits to get all the way through the wall of the kettle, and it discolored heavily and at the very end, left some jagged edges. It took a healthy dose of pounding the rough edge with a hammer, grinding with a Dremel, etc. to clean up the hellish job I had done drilling.

It made drilling my Aluminum kettle so much more fun... I was done in virtually no time at all. Before I drilled, I chose where I wanted the hole to be, and for good measure, I gave it a couple whacks with a rubber mallet, to sort of flatten the spot out, that way the O-ring would make an excellent seal.


EDIT: Deleted - Answered my own question, I stumbled across the right page on TEB.


Seeing how TEB uses the Greenlee Step Bit on this page ..... I actually don't need to buy that part, right?

They're only using it to create the pilot hole... I know I can find a high quality bit that will drill a pilot hole in aluminum. I've bought my wife a lot of drill bits lately to encourage her to work on the projects I don't know how to do. She's a fearless one. Anyways. Point is, I have lots and lots of bits to choose from.... Surely one will drill a pilot hole adequately.
 
New question. On http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements?page=8 - in image 2, it shows the stripped wire ends and the plug it's about to go into....... then in image 3, it's already hooked up. I can't tell from the pictures or from how they described it.... are those plugs simply Push-In? or do you have to fasten the wire to them?

I guess it could be push-in, as the strain relief will hold it together, once the plug body is screwed down, right?

I told you I'm electric-stoopid. :fro:
 
Chriso said:
New question. On http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements?page=8 - in image 2, it shows the stripped wire ends and the plug it's about to go into....... then in image 3, it's already hooked up. I can't tell from the pictures or from how they described it.... are those plugs simply Push-In? or do you have to fasten the wire to them?

I guess it could be push-in, as the strain relief will hold it together, once the plug body is screwed down, right?

I told you I'm electric-stoopid. :fro:

There are screws you tighten on the wire



You really don't need a step bit as long as you have a bit big enough to make a hole for the punch.
 
That is a pretty nice score having that punch set. That is not a common set. Most common is a conduit punch set. Which you have to be conscious about not getting the actual size hole mixed up with the conduit trade size
 
So I'll stick to trying to answer the questions you asked me originally...

If your HLT already has built in controls that you're happy with, run it separate. Plugging it into the control panel you build would really only use the control panel as an extension cord as all your functional controls would stay at the HLT - why go through the cost / effort.

PIDs - they monitor temperature via a probe, and then make adjustments to the output to reach and maintain a target temperature. They're better than simple on/off controllers in the sense that they 'learn' your system, and will adjust output to reach the target temperature as opposed to just heating up full bore until the temperature is hit and then turning off until the temperature drops like the Love or other type controllers. You can use the 'dumb' controllers and just deal with cycling above and below your target temperature. You can also use computerize controllers that use programable logic and code to hit your set point. PIDs (in my opinion) seem to be the simplest devices that still give you accurate results.

SSRs are steady-state-relays, they are similar to contactors in that they turn on / off a load via a smaller charge to a coil. The advantage of an SSR is that it can cycle very quickly as it has no moving parts, but they allow a small leakage charge through even when 'off'. The advantage of a connector is that it actually physically disconnects power so you know it's safe, but you can't cycle them quickly. That's why a lot of people use both.

If you use the main power on/off switch, you are still having to perform a more complicated process than mashing a button. Further, you still have power to the panel at the switch. Most people wire the e-stop to trip the GFCI breaker, killing the pannel all together.

You are correct - if you wanted the simplest panel and wanted to deal with a kitchen timer and an analog thermometer, all you'd need is a power modulating device to control the element and a plug for your pump. You wouldn't need any sort of panel at all really, but you'd have to closely monitor everything and learn your system to use it consistantly.

Chances are neither the BK or HLT draw 30A - that's a LOT of juice. Even a 5500 watt element at 240 only draws 23 amps. But yes, make sure your power supply can handle your expected demand. Think about your process - are you ever going to need to run the boil kettle and the HLT at the same time? Odds are no unless you plan to do back-to-back brews and want to save time. If you just want to run one, you really only need 30-40A, so the 50A panel is fine.

I'd suggest you make a few drawings for yourself. An overall line diagram of where things will need to go, plumbing lines, electrical lines, sensors, whatever. Make 20 of them, then make a few more. Get a good understanding of what you want and then start worry about the details. It's a lot to do and if you try and do it all at once like it seems that you are you're just going to wind up confused and exhausted.

-Kevin
 
Thanks for that Kevin. If I understand... even if I mount two separate 30A outlets in the GFCI Spa Panel - if I put an eStop on to the Control Panel - the when activated, the eStop actually trips the GFCI, right? So if I hit Stop, it should kill both the HLT and the entire Control Panel -- in other words, anything plugged into the Spa Panel. Right?

If that is the case, there would be no reason to put the extra wiring & outlet inside of the Control Panel which I think unnecessarily complicates things. ... That would be awesome.

I think I should consider the larger Spa Panel though - I would hope to run both pieces of equipment simultaneously, as you mentioned it would be extremely nice to do consecutive brews since I'll be indoor and pump-based, my brew days won't wear me out nearly as bad as they do right now.

I put the Kal eBook on to my wife's tablet and read through it while watching the election results last night. It is unbelievably thorough. Now I understand why it feels like everyone on the forum is skipping over discussing all of the really basic knowledge - it's because the eBook covers it all in perfect detail. Duh. Silly Chriso.

Thanks again for all of your feedback. My next plan is to re-read the entire PDF book. And then read it one more time. Then... I'm going to price out my kettle parts and see what the actual raw parts cost looks like for one kettle. If it's within reason, I might take the pre-built TheElectricBrewery kettle element kit since it's so well built & pretty. But if it looks like it's going to me a major cost savings, well then maybe I need to invest in the extra tools (Drill press especially) to get the job done myself.

I am much more confident now that I know how it all fits together...... I just don't want to buy the tools (extra step bits, hole saws, etc) to do the full element assembly, if I can get away without buying them. I've bought and subsequently lost / had taken from me a lot of tools already in my short lifespan, I feel like it's a huge money-suck that I'll never escape from, so I'm quite loathe to buy even more of them. (Hence encouraging my wife to take over anything handy around the house!)
 
I just bought the book and am waiting for the link to show up, so I will soon have LOTS more reading material to look over.
You should have gotten it moments after ordering. If not (and it's not in your SPAM folder), drop me a note.

EDIT: Doh! I see you already got it... never mind. ;)

Kal
 
Chris, good to see you've found smarter brains than mine on this. I do have electric HLT and BK but I have no control, nor do I need it. My boil is perfect, vigorous but not raucous, and I don't recirculate, so there was no need for holding a set temp with any of my heating elements. For what you want, these guys you've found will take good care of you!
 
You should have gotten it moments after ordering. If not (and it's not in your SPAM folder), drop me a note.

Thanks anyways for checking to make sure I found it, Kal! I had pretty much hit 'Post', gave it 3 minutes, still didn't see it, so then I checked the Gmail junk mail folder, and found it in there as I had suspected it might be.

Can I just reiterate that - even though I'd already read the sections that are available for free on the website - the eBook is still SO much more thorough & detail oriented!!! Seriously, GOOD work on this, your time & photos were well worth it. I'm absolutely satisfied with my purchase.


I do have electric HLT and BK but I have no control, nor do I need it. My boil is perfect, vigorous but not raucous, and I don't recirculate, so there was no need for holding a set temp with any of my heating elements.

Thanks buddy - I still want to pick your brain sometime - I keep forgetting to shoot you a note - typical Fall season being busy, that's all. :p Now that we have the club meeting & brew demo & swap meet out of the way, I should have some leisure time this month to finally get out of the house and visit people. Let me know if you have any brew days coming up!
 
Can I just reiterate that - even though I'd already read the sections that are available for free on the website - the eBook is still SO much more thorough & detail oriented!!!
I'm confused. The ebook has nothing more than the website. It is word for word, picture for picture, identical. It's simply an electronic book version of the build instructions on the site meant for eBook readers (iPad, Kindle, etc), for printing, or for just having a complete backup (just in case).

I only say this because I don't want to mislead others into thinking there's something different, nor do I want people to think I'm "holding back" information that is only available to those who pay (I'm not a big fan of that business model).

All of the information on my site is, and will always be, 100% free. I will never post something that is only available for those who pay.

Kal
 
Let me know if you have any brew days coming up!

If not this weekend, the next. Pipeline is OK at the moment but a few beers need to age to be ideal so I'm brewing more. Starting to need more kegs though...more $$$

Sorry, back on topic!

I'm 120v, too, as I had dedicated outlets somewhat nearby but no 220 and only 100A service in the house to begin with. That means I can always flip one element off if the boil ever does get too vigorous, hence I don't have controllers. It's not scientific, but most of the time it's not much different than turning on the stove would be and I rarely even have to turn an element off. For me it was the fastest, cheapest way to get brewing indoors.

I'm glad you're aiming high though and don't want to discourage you in any way! Might as well go big!
 
Have you thought about buying one of the control systems from High Gravity?

I'm not sure how price compares to building your own. If you add in your lack of tools, maybe it would work out better/cheaper.

I also understand (at least for me) that half of the fun is building and understanding the stuff.

Chris
 
I'm confused. The ebook has nothing more than the website. It is word for word, picture for picture, identical. It's simply an electronic book version of the build instructions on the site meant for eBook readers (iPad, Kindle, etc), for printing, or for just having a complete backup (just in case).

I only say this because I don't want to mislead others into thinking there's something different, nor do I want people to think I'm "holding back" information that is only available to those who pay (I'm not a big fan of that business model).

All of the information on my site is, and will always be, 100% free. I will never post something that is only available for those who pay.

Kal

Then I guess I tricked myself by having it in a streamlined format and not having to navigate. My bad. I swear, I must just space off when trying to read things on a static web site - I guess I need to look into getting a tablet to improve that, so things will be more book-like? :confused:

I sure feel dumb now. :p eBook is still worth buying though. I guess I'll print a copy and put it in a binder so that I can refer to it old-skool like.

TL;DR: Kal is right and I am remarkably ignorant!
 
Wow. I'm still feeling *really* overwhelmed by the scope of this project. I've been reading every build thread I can get my hands on to, and even after all of this, I still do not feel like I genuinely understand how one of the elements mounts, or is wired, or how it works.

I'm really fed up and frustrated with myself for being so dense about this. But I genuinely feel like I have no clue what I am doing.

I really don't want "much" of a control panel. The more I think about it, I am really not into the whole automated, integrated, shiny, blingy aesthetic. The High Gravity EBC SV controller would be absolutely adequate for my wants/needs. I don't quite understand why it's $500, it seems a little high, but I really don't understand what each of these components "should" cost, even after reading the excel price list that whoever has floating around.

But.... I do not know if I want to give up on my dream of having a HEX coil. I want to step mash and even mash out and I can never make it work out via the infusion method. Recirculating through a coil just "sounds right".

And worse, I really don't have a budget for this project. Like, the closer to $0 that I spend, the better.

I keep coming back to "It's just not going to happen, it's not in the cards." And that makes me feel ridiculous, because I'm too much of a wuss to go brew outside in the cold, but I drink so much that I can't just stop brewing for the winter, or I'll run out of money on commercial brew.

This is just all very frustrating to me right now.... :( ...it just makes me feel so stupid, being unable to understand how this all fits together and what all I need to accomplish this.

The fact that I am agonizing over spending $40 on a new kettle bulkhead and $30 on a new mash tun bulkhead is probably a glaring warning sign that I should stop pursuing the electric build until I have financial things into better shape...... Argh.

I should work on my fermentation cabinet, to see if I can give myself an attainable project and run with it. I don't know how I'm going to cut the hole in the cabinet though. Maybe I should not have bought steel. Hm. But I already have all the parts for the cabinet (minus the pink foam sheets) so it shouldn't be a big expense to complete the job.

If I can finish the fermentation cabinet, which involves a kiddie level of wiring, then maybe I'll feel better about things and can move on to building a vent hood. And if the vent hood works out, maybe I can finally think about punching a hole in my kettle and wiring up an element. :/

I am just so disappointed in myself over this... The rate at which other brewers on here are cranking out their e-builds puts me to damned shame.
 
I don't understand how to build an airplane... some folks do. I don't have the spare cash to buy an airplane... some folks do. I still love flying though!

Know your limitations (financial, time, DIY, whatever) and accept them. Remember - beer has been brewed for hundreds if not thousands of years, long before flashy control panels, recirculating HERMS coils, electric elements, or any of that stuff. If you don't think you have the skills or funds to build your own, and you don't have the funds to buy a completed one, then it may be time to consider putting this project on hold and sticking to the real core of all this - brewing beer! :mug:
 
I am afraid of airplanes. *hide* But I get your drift. Accepting my limitations -- okay, accepting ANYTHING -- is not my forte. I demand unreasonable perfection from myself and beat myself up when I fail to attain it. Normally I'd agree that I just need to clear my head and brew some beer, any way possible. It's a catch 22 because I don't want to brew any more than I have to, until I get the indoor brewery built: it's too cold outside and I have no garage or shelter of any kind. & I can't drop down to stovetop brewing because I don't have a stove. (Seriously. I cook on a rice cooker.)

At this point, I'm trying to think of the bare minimum I need to do, in order to brew indoors, in order to keep turning out beer.

1. The HLT is pre-baked and should work as-is, I just need to plug it in and give it a dry run to clean any stuff out of it. In theory, I can do this in my kitchen, unless the cord is the wrong type, or unless it's too low Amps. (No stove = available range outlet.)

2. The mash tun will be a regular cooler. I have a working mash tun, and I have a new cooler that will eventually become a mash tun. I could use either the old or the new. That is not a big stressor. Great. Moving on.

...That means that, in theory, I can already heat, mash, and sparge indoors and *ALL* I need to do is -
3. get a functioning element mounted in a kettle,
4. provide power to the kettle, ideally,
5. control the power once it hits boiling, and
6. vent the steam outdoors so I don't ruin my home.

That's all. That's really, really all. So how can it still seem like such a mountain of work?!

Maybe I can break it into bite-sized chunks so small that I can finally understand it and stop freaking out. Let's try it using Step 3. Get functioning element mounted in a kettle.

I feel like if I can't do this step, the project truly is a dead-end. The steps are covered in detail by Kal. He even sells a pre-fab assembly.

To complete Step 3, I need to do the following tasks at absolute minimum:

- Measure and mark where I want the bottom (and center and top) of the element to sit at on the kettle's wall. Too high and it causes problems with minimum liquid level. Too low and it causes problems with the bottom curved edge of the kettle. There is a "right way" to do this. I just need to execute it correctly. If I do not, I am out $30 for a used kettle. That is not so bad. It could be $300 for a Blingman.

- Drill a pilot hole using the center mark. There is really no risk here. I have drill bits. I have a drill. The kettle is aluminum and drills very easily.

- Use the punch, which I already have, in order to punch the correct size of element hole. I feel like I should wait to do this until I actually have the element in-hand so I know I am punching the correct hole. I am terrified that I will wind up using the wrong punch, or calculating an ID instead of OD, or something else equally stupid. I don't know why I am so worried about it. Kal lists the correct size right on the site. I should relax and just perform the step. But... *panic*

- Once hole is punched, insert element assembly and tighten. Right? That's all. Just secure it, and leak test it.

So if I can find $195 for the pre-assembled Kal element assembly, I only need to find the time to perform the steps, and then Step #3 should be all but complete. That doesn't sound so bad.
 
I would start with a quote from an electrician for upgrading your existing panel to breakers, higher amp service, etc. The cost may be significant.

For kettle temp and boil control it doesn't take much. Your kettle controller could be as simple as an ON/OFF switch and a PWM to control an SSR or a phase angle SSR.

Here are some details on my $300 eBIAB project. Once you remove the PID control and other features the price point drops further.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/ebciii-inspired-ebiab-build-368976/
 
To do the "real" brewery build-out will cost me at least $3k in electric work - I had a quote written up about a year ago - maybe $4k if I push the envelope by pulling a new 200A service, buried, and lots of dedicated 120v outlets strewn around the basement for all of my computer and/or beer gear.

But right now I am lowering my initial expectation to a portable "make do" sort of rig, where I can use existing outlets in the house - say, by unplugging the basement clothes dryer to plug in my boil kettle power source - or by unplugging the (non existent) oven in the first-floor kitchen in order to plug my HLT into - without making any wiring changes.

Of course, that means I'm also sans-GFCI....... I need to keep that in mind.

For the sake of discussion - Take only my turn-key HLT for example. It's plastic, the controls are plastic, the valve handle is plastic. Does it "need" a GFCI? I mean, obviously, it should have GFCI protection for general safety's sake... but if I'm using it as, essentially, a giant hot water tea kettle.... once it reaches the desired temp., as long as I power the unit off and unplug from power source - THEN begin to discharge the hot water into a carrying bucket - I wonder whether it would be do-able.

Is there such a thing as a pre-made PWM? I was not considering that option because I don't know how to solder so buying a PCM circuit board kit does not do me any good.
 
To do the "real" brewery build will cost me at least $3k in electric work - I had a quote written up about a year ago - but I am lowering my initial expectation to a portable "make do" sort of rig, where I can use existing outlets in the house - say, by unplugging the dryer to plug in my boil kettle power source - or by unplugging the (non existent) oven to plug my HLT into - without making any wiring changes.

Of course, that means I'm also sans-GFCI....... I need to keep that in mind.

Is there such a thing as a pre-made PWM? I was not considering that option because I don't know how to solder so buying a PCM circuit board kit does not do me any good.

you can get one of the old xerox power cords with inline GFCI for less than $50. Its not to code but its certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing. Or you can build a spa panel setup that would plug into your dryer outlet for probably less than $75.

Going the electric brewery route without GFCI protection is a terrible idea.
 
Agreed - no GFCI on a pot full of liquid that you are pumping electricity into - and that you will likely touch / stir / contact in some way - is not a great idea.
 
Here is the HLT. I am thinking that, since the cost is not much different between the Xerox plug and doing a spa panel, I will do the latter. I need to figure out the whole two-outlets-in-one-panel situation though... for, I will need a 60A panel, with 2 30A outlets, one for the HLT, and one for the boil kettle/controller.

IMG_20121211_164357.jpg

IMG_20121211_164350.jpg

IMG_20121211_164341.jpg


This is actually the first time I've ever taken it all the way out of the box - much less left it sitting out after looking at it!
 
Hah. It depends what you mean by "started". I bought the electric HLT on a complete whim about 4 years ago and have never used it.
I have read through Kal's site in fits and phases a few times over again. But in terms of seriously reading & concentrating, once, about 2 months ago. I don't read much, well, ever. Stopped readin' books about 10 years ago. So it was kind of hard to force myself to read that much content in one sitting.
However as far as "seriously considering" an electric indoor rig, I would say that I have been reading/researching build threads and parts and techniques since about June 2012.
The problem is that I have a really steep learning curve, I cannot understand things until I fully and completely understand every last component of them, THEN, it all clicks together at once.
I haven't had "that click" happen yet with the electric thing, which is why I'm agonizing over it so much - I still don't fully understand it, but I don't understand which part I'm failing to "get", so I don't know where to focus my attention in order to make it all click.
Learning problems run in my family. I have to learn "just right" to get things. In my case, it usually involves someone else showing me how it fits together in person. Seeing instructions or a video don't do anything for me in most cases.
 
Well just to give you a reference, I researched electric brewing for almost a year before building my system. Then it took close to 6 months to build it. Took me almost a year of using it and tinkering to fully understand it (which I probably still don't fully). It will take time to understand, even without learning disabilities.
 
Would it be feasible to adapt a bank of 12V car batteries in parallel and series to meet your electrical needs rather than rewiring your home? They aren't very inexpensive either, just curious if it could be done with step-up transformers and all that.
 
o_O whoa. to tell you the truth, I have no idea, re: the car batteries. That is far beyond the scope of my electrical know-how.

Regarding the wiring, though... the $3k-4k rate that I listed encompasses a lot of things. Burying the service line instead of replacing the overhead. Bumping my capacity to 200A, not 150A, which would still be adequate. A whole new master panel. Repairs to a couple other places within the house. Running custom circuits for brewing equipment. Running a line for a new exhaust fan in the kitchen, which does not have one. (Heck. It includes the exhaust fan itself - a $300 Panasonic.) Replacing a couple of light switches. Replacing a couple two-prong outlets with a new pull of wire and grounded plugs.

When you get down to the actual brewing related costs, there are a couple things in my favor: the house was previously converted to apartments, way back in time, and then converted back. As a result, there are 220V outlets in my main floor living room and my 2nd floor bedroom, one was previously used for an oven, the other for a heavy-duty air conditioner unit. Neither is currently used. Depending on their amperage, I hope to "steal" the spots on the fuse panel away from both of these outlets (disconnect and remove them, if I can figure out how to pull the wire!) to repurpose them for new runs for the brewery.

Theoretically (and pending my electric guy's verification of this), I could set up the eBrewery without even upgrading my 100A service or replacing my fuse panel. I just have a tendency to mentally combine projects together, and together again, and together again, until I have these massive mega-projects that can't be unraveled and that I don't know where to start on.
 
You would need a serious bank of car batteries to step up to 240V and power a 5500W element for an hour. I'm not sure how many, but more than I'd want ot have in my house at any one time.
 
Would it be feasible to adapt a bank of 12V car batteries in parallel and series to meet your electrical needs rather than rewiring your home? They aren't very inexpensive either, just curious if it could be done with step-up transformers and all that.

You would also need DC to AC converters. And figure out the correct way to wire the batteries up so they they work in balance. Kind of like a deisel truck, but with quite a few more strings of batteries.
 
Okay, so car batteries aren't happening, we can leave that well enough alone. I've done some more thinking, and here is what I've come up with, in terms of what needs to be done, and how I want it to be done.

I'm not ready to start buying parts this very second, so a wiring diagram is not yet necessary - For now, I'd mostly like help "thinking through" the process that I have come up with, and making sure I'm not overlooking huge issues with my build strategy.

1) Spa Panel

- At least 30A GFCI - however, I'd like to do simultaneous brews - To recap, my HLT instruction manual lists its' requirement as "240 VAC, Max Amperage 25A, Breaker required 30A" and, to my knowledge, it uses 2x 3000W LWD(?) elements. I intend to plug the HLT directly into the Spa Panel on one outlet, and plug my Brewery Controller in to a second outlet on the Panel (and NOT plug the HLT in to the Controller). So, more likely, I will want either a 50A or 60A Spa Panel. Need to do some "real math" to figure out what the Brewmation HLT actually needs. (I've got conflicting info on what is its' wattage.)
- I will also need to purchase two 30A 220V 4-prong female receptacles - one to plug the HLT into and one for the Controller.
- Lastly, I will need a small amount of decent gauge wire, to make the connections for both outlets, and a way to cut the hole into the enclosure. (I have a random-ass pile of short (6"-18") scraps of what looks to be heavy duty, solid core copper. They were extras from a Facilities team that did some work in our building. While cleaning up their mess for them, I decided the scraps of wire were recyclable for future projects.)

1.5) HLT - Nothing needs to be done immediately. Long-term, I plan to drill two holes, install two weldless bulkheads, and attach an In/Out for a Heat Exchanger coil within the HLT. That will come after I have a fully working system - No need to incorporate it into the Alpha version.

2) Pump Assembly

- I already have a March PL-809-HS 120V with molded cord. I would like to keep the cord intact, so I'll mount an outlet within the enclosure for this configuration. Then, if I want to take the pump with me somewhere, I can remove it from the Assembly Box, unplug it from the outlet, and away I go.
- I want to house the Assembly in a toolbox or other protective enclosure, containing both the Pump Motor/Housing, and the circuitry. (The Pump Head may stick out from one end, with the two hoses accessible, or something like that... haven't figured out the right "box" yet or how things will be positioned. )
- I want to add a 3PDT Center Off switch to the Pump Assembly, the switch will toggle between A) ALWAYS ON mode, B) "neutral"/Off, and C) TEMP CONTROLLER mode. When in Temp Controller mode, the pump can be used to perform recirculation of the mash through a HEX to maintain temp. or even step-mash.
- I want to add an Auber PID + SSR(?) to this enclosure. The SSR does **NOT** need to be massive, I will only be powering the March Pump with this SSR, *not any elements* so 40A/220V is not necessary. (My paperwork indicates the March Pump requires approx. 2A @ 120V.)
---When in Temp controller mode, this activates the Auber PID, and turns the pump on as-needed to maintain (or increase) the temp. of the mash.
---When in "Always On" mode, this would bypass the PID entirely.
- The Pump Assembly will also need a Temp Probe connector and a probe assembly. I am thinking an RTD type probe - and XLR 3-Pin male connector/female receptacle mounted on the enclosure to make it detachable for storage.
- The Pump Assembly should have its' own 120V cord, which will plug in to a single 120V 10A outlet on the Brewery Controller (which is protected by GFCI upstream in the Spa Panel).
- I would assume that I need to build a safety fuse somewhere into this assembly.
- One last note, the PID, SSR(?), and Mode Switch do not need to be on the Alpha version of the Pump Ass'y. It can be initially built for Always On, with sufficient room to mount & wire up the necessary parts to add the PID mode later on.

3) Electric Kettle

- I already have a spare 15gal Aluminum wide-body stock pot. I have my thin-wall Propane one, and a thick-wall one that I picked up recently second-hand. I am thinking... oddly enough... that I will use the thin-wall, propane kettle - as my electric - and build a new propane one from the thicker-wall kettle. The reason for this is that, outdoors in the cold when the wind picks up, my thin kettle acts as a giant heat-sink and strips away heat faster than my burner can keep up with it.
- One of the two kettles will get a hole drilled & a weldless bulkhead & 1/2" valve installed. (Doesn't matter which one - the other kettle already has the same bulkhead/valve - let's move on.)
- Punch the 1 1/4" hole for the Weldless Element.
- Tentative: Buy a pre-assembled element kit from TheElectricBrewery or eBrewSupply (roughly same price/quality). Mount in kettle. Done. Have a beer & congratulate self.
---Possible: Undertake making my own element assembly. (The biggest part that I do not want to deal with is the cutting/sanding/painting - NOT the electric work! I just don't have much by way of tools that cut metal in a controlled & nice-looking manner.)
- No question in my mind: I want to go with the Camco 5500W ULWD element.
- I do not need a sight glass - but maybe I'll make a stupid-simple Marker Stick to check my water level with. (It *should* work the same on both of my kettles, too!)
- No temp sensor either - If I want a "warning" to sound when I start approaching boiling, I will just use my existing "simple" stand alone thermometer/timer, and set the alarm on it for 205*F.
- Long-term, I will want to punch another hole and add a Float Switch for safety measures. This does NOT need to be in the Alpha build.

4) Brewery Controller

- I know I want this to be on the small side, NOT a giant one-panel-does-all like the Kal build. I think I would like it to be wall mounted, but that is subject to change based on the actual layout of my room and equipment once things start to come together.
- It should have a Controller Master On/Off Switch in it - that literally just disconnects & energizes the panel at the earliest point on the wiring diagram. I have read that it is a good idea to add a controller-wide safety fuse to this same area of the diagram.
- I'm okay with incorporating an eStop button + having it trigger the Spa Panel GFCI, as long as it's not too costly to add. Otherwise, I will just plan to use the Master On/Off for this purpose - and the Spa Panel will be in a physically accessible place where I can also kill power at the breaker without reaching over/past my equipment.
- It should NOT have a PID. I want to *only* control my boil kettle with this controller. After considering the benefit vs. expense, I know I want to go the PWM route - especially if I can find friend or family to solder it for me, as I have no interest in learning to solder, I am not a fine-motor-skills guy and have no intent to solder again in the future, just a one-time need.
- The PWM will pair up to an SSR of specs 220V / 40A. I have read that I also need a fuse for the SSR.
--- Note to self: Look into phase angle SSR instead of PWM circuit, to accomplish same goal.
- I want to add a Kettle Mode Switch - a 3PDT Center Off switch to the panel to go between "100%"/bypass PWM circuit, and "0-99%"/Enable PWM circuit. That way, when I am ramping up to boil, I can just flip it to 100% until the boil begins. Center position would be "No Contact" or for my automotively-inclined brain, "Neutral" on the shifter box.
- It should have a Kettle Element On indicator light. (Low expense, hooks up inline and doesn't add unnecessary complexity to the diagram, so I figure, "why not?")
- It should have an Kettle Intensity knob, which controls the PWM circuit when in "0-99%" mode.
- It should have one 120V 10A outlet using one of the two Hot legs - this outlet should be always-on regardless of Kettle Mode Switch position (but, still disabled by the Master ON/OFF switch).
Operation:
- When heating strike, and mashing, the Controller Master Switch will be turned On (so that the pump operates), but the Kettle Mode Switch would be in "neutral". Meanwhile, the HLT would be ON and maintaining temperature.
- When sparging, the HLT can be turned Off at the beginning of the sparge - the Controller Master Switch remains on, and the Pump Assembly continues pumping, Once sufficient wort is collected in the BK, the Kettle Control Switch would be moved to the 100% position.
- Once sparge has completed, the Pump Assembly would be turned off, and I would wait until boil began - then, immediately switch the KCS over to "0-99%" mode, and adjust the PWM Intensity Knob to a point where I maintain a boil but am not firing my element needlessly.
- At the end of boil, Pump Assembly would be turned back on, hot wort circ'ed through my CFC until sanitized, and then I would turn the KCS back to "neutral", then proceed to chill my wort as normal.
- Once chilling/collection ends, I would turn off the Controller Master Switch, which in turn shuts off the Pump Assembly. The HLT was already powered off, so at this point, I can turn the Spa Panel off entirely before I begin clean-up stage.

5) Infrastructure - The expensive and fun part - I only have 100A service - And if I plan to go 60A so that I can brew back-to-back, I will positively have to get my service drop upgraded to 200A. Oh well, It needs a new panel & service upgrade anyways. Hopefully we can do it less expensively than I think we can, and hopefully it adds enough to the house value that we're not totally screwed when we move. So, in short, new 50A or 60A service, running to the brew room, and terminating in a 4-prong 220V receptacle. The Spa Panel should be free-standing and plug into this receptacle, so that it is not permanent fixture / subject to code.

Summary
So basically, what I'm saying is, the Alpha version will only have the Spa Panel, HLT as-is, Master On/Off Switch, Kettle element/cable and receptacle, Kettle PWM Controller, and 100%/Neutral/0-99% switch, then the 120V Pump outlet, and the Alpha version of the Pump Assembly will only have the enclosure, pump, and power cord.

The Beta version will add the PID, SSR, and Mode Switch to the Pump Ass'y, and also add the HEX coil and bulkheads to the HLT.

Either during Alpha phase - or else when I enter Beta phase - I will also need to buy all of the QD's necessary for the system, and replace all of my loose/stained braided vinyl hoses with new, silicone, permanently-assembled, hose assemblies.

The Final version will add one more pump (probably just a Harbor Freight sump pump) that would give me the ability to recirc ice water for chilling instead of using my ground water - and maybe also incorporate a Float Switch in to the kettle - and perhaps a Timer + Buzzer, if I feel randy like that. But, we will get to that later on, once we have an Alpha version and glimpses of working on Beta. For now, a $12 Big Number Timer will do just fine for me - as will ground water for chilling.

WHEW! So there you have it! Thoughts. Input. Criticisms. Free beer. Whatever you've got, lay it on me.
 
Back
Top