My RIMS job

So today, I started a RIMS build. I basically am just cloning a Brew-Magic, with a few custom touches and upgrades. We started on it today, and managed to get it up and completely tacked together. Waiting on stainless plumbing parts to arrive and some burners to show up.


Starting to cut pieces:


Tacking:


More tacking:


Free standing, level, and added a floor.

very nice. Just wondering if theres any reason you went with rims instead of herms?

Mine was simplicity. The original design was a HERMS, but I just think a RIMS is so much easier. And I'm not scared about scorching wort....

Finished up the RIMS Heater.

What you see:
a Lowe's 4500 watt 240v heater, but it will be ran at 110v to yield about 1000 watts
8" 1.5d Stainless nipple
2 x 1.5" Stainless tees
2 x 1.5" to 1/2" Stainless bushings
1.5" to 1" Stainless bushing (to mount the heating element)
1.5" Stainless plug


And assembled:



Also got the boil kettle welded up. Pic's to come....

Looking good.
It'd be cool if you can post costs.

Ya, I can't imagine that the stainless fittings were cheap. I know for a half inch coupling I pay about five bucks a pop. I can only guess what the 1 1/2" stuff runs. LOL.
S.

wowsa, thats awesome looking. I image you have a good source for stainless fittings like that, since i'm sure they are way more expensive than copper.

Great job!

That looks Great!

Are you planning on insulating that heating setup? How do you plan on mounting it? Looks great though nice work

Displaced MassHole said:

Are you planning on insulating that heating setup? How do you plan on mounting it? Looks great though nice work

Click to expand...

This site has a good example on how to mount RIMS

Brewery Construction

Why am I so attracted to shiny metal things? Especially if it involves beer?

I can't wait to see the finished project. I am still in awe of the stainless 1 1/2" plumbing.... (wallet says 'ouch'?)

Sorry the delay on posting. The brewery build took a back seat to me trying to finish college (10 days left, by the way).

We're back in gear though... Made a lot of progress:







And the 99.9% final product, complete with 0 - 30 psi adjustable regulator:

The Grey wire will run to the the RTD.

The frame is pretty much done. I'm now in the process of painting and hard plumbing the gas lines in.

jcdillin said:

wowsa, thats awesome looking. I image you have a good source for stainless fittings like that, since i'm sure they are way more expensive than copper.

Great job!

Click to expand...

I actually have an industrial supply store about 10 minutes away that can beat just about any online source (Grainger, McMaster, BuyFittingsOnline) by a decent margin. I think my 1/2" couplings I welded into the keggles were about 3 bucks a piece.

Overall in JUST the heater, I have about a $100 bucks. Another $130 in a pump... $75 in electrical... and about $100 in tri-clamp fittings sitting my closet.

My policy is build it once, and built it right. I haven't cut any corners or skimped in any way on this. Yea it costs a lot up front, but I don't know why it shouldn't outlast me.

The whole brewery is designed for 10gal batches right now but is easily upgradeable to 20 + gallon batches by simply using a larger set of pots.

Displaced MassHole said:

Are you planning on insulating that heating setup? How do you plan on mounting it? Looks great though nice work

Click to expand...

I'm not insulating the RIMS heater. I think it will be do fine without any insulation... We'll see at least.

Just to get an idea of how the whole thing will go together

looks great! Keep up the good work. I'm very much looking foreward to seeing this finished :rockin:

Where did you mount the thermocoupler (or equivalent) for the RIMS? Inside the MT or somewhere else. Thinking of doing this.

bakins said:

Where did you mount the thermocoupler (or equivalent) for the RIMS? Inside the MT or somewhere else. Thinking of doing this.

Click to expand...

I'm using a 1/2" MPT stainless RTD that is mounted to the output of the mash tun. Should have it hopefully plumbed this weekend... well maybe.

This is the mount for the Banjo Burner

Another stupid question: how do you wire a 240V element with 120V? I currently have 240V HLT and BK, just wasn't sure about this.

Any chance you can "share" your stainless source?

bakins said:

Another stupid question: how do you wire a 240V element with 120V? I currently have 240V HLT and BK, just wasn't sure about this.

Any chance you can "share" your stainless source?

Click to expand...

I just wired it.. the heater is resistive so its heat output is a function of the applied voltage. I think I'm going to get around 1200 or so watts at about 10 amps with 120VAC

The "source" is Star Mechanical in Springdale, Arkansas. http://http://www.star-mechanical.com/

Yeah, 1125W at about 9.4A... that should work well though, you will have a nice low watt density on that element.

Are you at all worried about running say 180F wort back into your MLT because your temp probe is in the MLT outlet where it is only 150F for instance? Do you have any control over how HOT the heater outlet wort will be allowed to reach before the element turns off? Say you are shooting for 152F in the mash and your oultet temp (temp probe) is reading 148F, commanding the element to turn on... what prevents the element from running 180F wort back into your MLT? By the time your MLT outlet reaches your set temp, half your mash will be a steaming 170F...

I guess what I am asking is, why not have the temp probe at the outlet of the heating "pod"? to avoid overshooting your wort temp returning to your MLT? I put my thermowell in my HERMS heat exchanger for that reason... I dont want my wort returning to the MLT to be overshooting in order to maintain mash temp... I want it to be within a few degrees of my target MLT temp. Currently I run a three degree differential (155F in the HERMS HLT to obtain 152F in the MLT).

Just curious.

The Pol said:

Yeah, 1125W at about 9.4A... that should work well though, you will have a nice low watt density on that element.

Are you at all worried about running say 180F wort back into your MLT because your temp probe is in the MLT outlet where it is only 150F for instance? Do you have any control over how HOT the heater outlet wort will be allowed to reach before the element turns off? Say you are shooting for 152F in the mash and your oultet temp (temp probe) is reading 148F, commanding the element to turn on... what prevents the element from running 180F wort back into your MLT? By the time your MLT outlet reaches your set temp, half your mash will be a steaming 170F...

I guess what I am asking is, why not have the temp probe at the outlet of the heating "pod"? to avoid overshooting your wort temp returning to your MLT? I put my thermowell in my HERMS heat exchanger for that reason... I dont want my wort returning to the MLT to be overshooting in order to maintain mash temp... I want it to be within a few degrees of my target MLT temp. Currently I run a three degree differential (155F in the HERMS HLT to obtain 152F in the MLT).

Just curious.

Click to expand...

+1

I use a HERMS and read the temp as it exits the HERMS chamber.

Also, in one of your pics you have a regulator. Are you using that for the rig or did it happen to be there? I'm racking my head as to why you would need a regulator.

Great job, really looks nice (reminds me of a BrewMagic in many ways).

I think he has a hybrid system, electric RIMS and gas for the HLT and the BK... the regulator is to control the gas to those sources of heat I presume.

davebl said:

I just wired it.. the heater is resistive so its heat output is a function of the applied voltage. I think I'm going to get around 1200 or so watts at about 10 amps with 120VAC

Click to expand...

So, do you just connect the hot and neutral of the 120V like you would connect the 2 hots of the 240V??

Debating on RIMS like this, HLT based HERMS, and standalone HERMS chamber.

caskconditioned said:

+1

I use a HERMS and read the temp as it exits the HERMS chamber.

Also, in one of your pics you have a regulator. Are you using that for the rig or did it happen to be there? I'm racking my head as to why you would need a regulator.

Great job, really looks nice (reminds me of a BrewMagic in many ways).

Click to expand...

I am using gas burners to heat the water in the MLT and HLT, then I'll use the RIMS portion to maintain mash temps. It really is a hybrid system.

The Pol said:

Yeah, 1125W at about 9.4A... that should work well though, you will have a nice low watt density on that element.

Are you at all worried about running say 180F wort back into your MLT because your temp probe is in the MLT outlet where it is only 150F for instance? Do you have any control over how HOT the heater outlet wort will be allowed to reach before the element turns off? Say you are shooting for 152F in the mash and your oultet temp (temp probe) is reading 148F, commanding the element to turn on... what prevents the element from running 180F wort back into your MLT? By the time your MLT outlet reaches your set temp, half your mash will be a steaming 170F...

I guess what I am asking is, why not have the temp probe at the outlet of the heating "pod"? to avoid overshooting your wort temp returning to your MLT? I put my thermowell in my HERMS heat exchanger for that reason... I dont want my wort returning to the MLT to be overshooting in order to maintain mash temp... I want it to be within a few degrees of my target MLT temp. Currently I run a three degree differential (155F in the HERMS HLT to obtain 152F in the MLT).

Just curious.

Click to expand...

First, I am using a PID, not a standard temp controller. The PID will calibrate itself to my system to figure out how to heat it without overheating. Secondly, I'll have the mash water up to strike temps with the gas burner, mash in, then use the RIMS to maintain a mash temp. So I don't think it would ever get up to 170 degrees during a mash. We'll see though.

My other thought was if the water coming out of the heating element was used for the temperature probe, then what about the heat loss in the mash tun where the grain is?

I dunno, still a work in progress. We'll see how my planned configuration goes and make adjustments from there.

I do appreciate the input POL. Thanks!

davebl said:

My other thought was if the water coming out of the heating element was used for the temperature probe, then what about the heat loss in the mash tun where the grain is?

I do appreciate the input POL. Thanks!

Click to expand...

This is where my 3 degree differential comes in when I am mashing... I lose about 3F in the transfer to the MLT, and it has remained constant through about 6 brews with the HERMS this far.
I know PIDs work well for adjusting to system parameters, I just dont know what will keep the output of the heater from getting too hot. 1200W in a small area with restricted flow around it is probably cabable of really warming up mash water fast. Basically I am not sure that a PID will say... "hey, this dude wants 152F and I am sensing 148F, so I am going to turn on the heater... but only for 10 seconds because he would only want the heater to output 155F wort" The PID has no idea if the wort exiting the heater is 180F or 155F.... it is reading the MLT output temp and how long it takes to get there perhaps... but it has no idea what temp the wort is coming out of the heater to achieve said result.

I dunno, anyone??

The Pol said:

...
Basically I am not sure that a PID will say... "hey, this dude wants 152F and I am sensing 148F, so I am going to turn on the heater... but only for 10 seconds because he would only want the heater to output 155F wort" The PID has no idea if the wort exiting the heater is 180F or 155F.... it is reading the MLT output temp and how long it takes to get there perhaps... but it has no idea what temp the wort is coming out of the heater to achieve said result.

I dunno, anyone??

Click to expand...

It depends on the PID controller. That setup will have a fairly large time constant, but a modern autotuning PID controller should be able to figure it out pretty closely with a wet run (water only). Better PID's will also adapatively modify the PID constants (as well as the "on" time) to hit the setpoints.

Davebl: Are you using proportional output to the heating element, or just on-off control?

Here's my take on all of this...

The end goal is to maintain mash temps (or make small adjustments). Say you mash-in at 148F but want a target temp of 152F. In your case, reading the wort as it exits the mash, your PID will turn on and continue to heat the element until it starts to near 152F - at which point it will start to throttle back the heating cycle so you don't over shoot the temperature (assuming it has already been calibrated). But, during that time, the wort may reach temps much higher than 152F. In other words, the PID doesn't care that it's raising the temperature past your set point, it only cares that the wort exiting your mash tun gets to the set temp. So you could be heating your wort up to even 160F before everything equalizes in the mash-tun nearing your target temp.

Now take the other scenario, you are reading the temperature as it exits the RIMS chamber. In this case, the PID will never over-heat past 152 (or maybe a little more). As you continue to recirculate the wort, you eventually heat the entire mash BUT without ever exposing the wort to much higher temperatures.

Hope I'm making sense. Anyways, that is why I chose to read my temp. as it exits the HERMS chamber. But maybe both work just as well?

This is what I was talking about... if you measure temp at the MLT outlet, the PID cannot possibly realize that the heater output to the MLT is say, 160, 170....? It has no idea what that element is doing in there. You could have a 1500W element pumping out 160F wort, or a 4500W element pumping out 190F wort and all the PID will SEE is the MLT outlet temp is either at its set point or not. If you control the heater by its own ouput temperature, then you will never run the risk of sending hot wort that has overshot your MLT target temp into your MLT, because the PID will SEE it.

When building my HERMS I read a lot about where to measure temps and the outcome of measuring it in different areas.... basically stated was the fact that if you measure it anywhere other than at the heater outlet you run the risk of overshooting your temp. Your controller has no idea how hot your heating chamber is.

Is there a way to have 2 temp inputs for a PID?

e.g., one in the mash controlling the overall activity - is the mash high/low/good - and another one at the RIMS/HERMS output for fine-grain control over the heating element so that you never overheat the wort.

The Pol said:

This is what I was talking about... if you measure temp at the MLT outlet, the PID cannot possibly realize that the heater output to the MLT is say, 160, 170....? It has no idea what that element is doing in there. You could have a 1500W element pumping out 160F wort, or a 4500W element pumping out 190F wort and all the PID will SEE is the MLT outlet temp is either at its set point or not. If you control the heater by its own ouput temperature, then you will never run the risk of sending hot wort that has overshot your MLT target temp into your MLT, because the PID will SEE it.

When building my HERMS I read a lot about where to measure temps and the outcome of measuring it in different areas.... basically stated was the fact that if you measure it anywhere other than at the heater outlet you run the risk of overshooting your temp. Your controller has no idea how hot your heating chamber is.

Click to expand...

Interesting POL. I was looking at the Brew-Magic, which is what I am cloning, and they have the temp probe on the output of the MLT.

I guess some in-depth testing will be in order before a first batch.

You really do not want the heater to send wort to your MLT that is hotter than your MLT set point. If you want your MLT at 152F, there has to be a way to make sure that the wort coming into the MLT is 152F. Otherwise your mash temp will overshoot. Keep us posted on how the PID handles that.

The Pol said:

You really do not want the heater to send wort to your MLT that is hotter than your MLT set point. If you want your MLT at 152F, there has to be a way to make sure that the wort coming into the MLT is 152F. Otherwise your mash temp will overshoot. Keep us posted on how the PID handles that.

Click to expand...

Another thing I thought of is that the PID turns the heater on or off. So if there is an issue with the wort getting too hot, I can just up the flow rate on the pump.

BTW, Pol, on your HERMS what size tube do you use? I am thinking of either 3/8 or 1/2 hard stainless tubing for my system.

Everything on my rig is 1/2"... on previous versions of "The Beast" I used 3/8" and the flow rates are SO much faster with 1/2" that I would never go back. From the ball valves to the HERMS coil to the tubing, it is all 1/2". I highly recommend it.

3/8" components may be slightly cheaper, but the difference in flow and ability to prime my pump is incredible. I know a lot of people convert coolers with 3/8" hardware, if they only knew how large the difference was with 1/2" plumbing!!!

+1 on the 1/2" tubing!!

I initially built something almost identical and I tried to put the temp probe on the outlet. My first brew seemed to be going OK until the probe called for more heat. I wasn't watching extremely close, I was just confident that my system would work, well by the time the hot wort on top got to the probe and shut off, my whole mash had been over heated. I watched in a panic as my temp climbed to 168 even though the element was off.

After this I switched to the outlet of the heat exchanger and I put a digital thermometer at the outlet of the MLT. Once the system stabilizes they are within 1/2 degree of each other for the entire mash.

One other major question on your design. How are you getting the air out of the heat exchanger? If you have both outlets pointed down, it will take you forever to purge enough air out to ensure your element is completely submerged. You need at least one fitting to point up, or at least out the side. My outlet points up and I have to recirculate water for a good 5 minutes before I stop getting bubbles out of the heat exchanger. I recirc for a bit before turning the element on.

Linc

I think with HERMS and RIMS the placement of the temp probe is really important. +1 on the orientation of the inlets and outlets when pumping, air is tenacious with the March pumps.

Remember if you place your temp probe on the HEX outlet, you cannot run a system where the pump only runs periodically, otherwise when the pump is off, the temp probe (wort) will cool in that area, commanding the element on when you do not want it on. I am sure you are going to use a constant recirc, but some dont, and this can be a real issue.

The Pol said:

I think with HERMS and RIMS the placement of the temp probe is really important. +1 on the orientation of the inlets and outlets when pumping, air is tenacious with the March pumps.

Remember if you place your temp probe on the HEX outlet, you cannot run a system where the pump only runs periodically, otherwise when the pump is off, the temp probe (wort) will cool in that area, commanding the element on when you do not want it on. I am sure you are going to use a constant recirc, but some dont, and this can be a real issue.

Click to expand...

I do plan to recirculate 100% of the time. I think I'll put the probe on the output of the HEX based on POL and Linc's advice. I don't know about directly at the output though, would you think heat transfer from the stainless itself could affect the probe? I think putting in a tee a foot or so down the line might be ok?