Started my first berliner

After falling in love with a Berliner Weisse at Iron Hill brewery last summer, I finally decided to pull the trigger on making my own. I just did a traditional 70/30 pils wheat grain bill with a mash hopping of liberty (strictly on the advice of a guy at my LHBS). I just mashed in for a 5.5g batch at 154*, and plan to let the mash sit for about 36-48 hours. I will then drain, into the fermenter, mashout and sparge to collect the full amount of wort. From there I have a question.

I was originally planning to let the wort sit in the fermenter for a day, and pitch the WLP677 and let the bugs do there deed.

However, the same guy at the LHBS suggessted I throw a pound of crushed grain in the primary and let that sit a day or two, then rack to a new carboy and pitch the WLP677.

Is one approach better than the other considering I am doing a no-boil batch?

Lactobacillus lives on your barley. The idea behind throwing crushed grain in the primary is to add lacto to your wort. Since wlp677 is lacto, I'd skip his step of adding the grain and just pitch what you have.
I didn't see what yeast you're going to be using. If you're planning on using just lacto (a bacteria), then you're going to be in for a surprise.
Mashing for 1.5 to 2 days is going to add an unpredictable amount of lactic sourness. I'd skip that as well.

(edited for grammar)

I do have some clean dry yeast on hand, but I was originally planning to not do anything but the bugs. So I should pitch the bugs and the yeast? Should I give one a head start?

After some reading, I think I may pitch some Cal Ale or Nottingham with the bugs, no boil, no additional cracked grains. Anyone want to chime in and let me know if this is a good approach?

Here are my notes from my Bweiss a couple of weeks ago.

Berliner Weiss #1
Brewdate: 05-09-09
OG: 1.034
Volume: 10 gallons

Recipe: 6lbs Weyermann Pilsner
6lbs Weyermann Wheat malt
1oz German Select 2.3%AA
2L starter of 2 vials Lacto Delbrueckii (White Labs), made night before, held at 98F overnight

Brewday Process:

Mashed in at 133F, held for 25mins. Pulled a decoction (about 1.5gal) and held at 150F for 10 mins, then boiled for 30mins. Added back to mash, only brought it up to 140F. Pulled another decoction, boiled for 5 mins, added back to mash to bring it to 147F. Rested for 60mins. Dropped to 144F after 60mins. Pulled a 3rd decoction, boiled 30 mins, added back and it brought it up to 164F. Lautered, got very cloudy wort. Difficult to runoff. Sparged with 2 equal batches of 3.75gals of 200F wort.

10.5gals of wort at 10.5P, wanted 8.5P. Diluted to 13gals, giving me 8.8P wort. I brought the entire volume to 170F (since the cold water I added to dilute brought it down, and in an attempt to slightly sanitize the wort). I then cooled it down to 80F, put 5.75gal into Adam's carboy, 4.75gals into my corny. I added fermcap (5drops into corny, 6 into carboy), added the lacto, and then eyeballed ~2.5g of US-05 into each fermenter.

Updates:

05-10-09 Thin krausen has formed on top, visible bubbling. Ferment started at 78, brought down to basement and is sitting at 68.

05-11-09 Fluffy white krausen in corny, half fluffy white krausen, half brown crusty looking krausen. SG of both is 1.014. No sourness in taste, tastes worty. Moved corny to fridge and set to 82, moved carboy into closet and is sitting at 72.

05-13-09 Gravity reading: 1.006 out of carboy. Smell is slightly tart, big bready notes. Taste is very slight tartness up front, followed by a fairly clean bready/wheaty character. Tastes pretty good, but I really really hope it sours up more.

05-15-09 Gravity reading of the keg fermented version: 1.004. Smell is just wheat bread, clean. Taste is wheat bread, clean, with a very very faint tartness in the background. Very faint. I added as small a pour as I could manage of Lactic acid to ~4oz of the sample, and the tartness brightened up the entire flavor and nose, paired wonderfully with the breadiness. As a last resort, this seems like a great option.

05-17-09 Added dregs of Lindemans Cuvee Renee to keg BW. Moved from 85F fridge to same spot as carboy, sitting at about 74F.

05-25-09 No gravity reading, but tasted both carboy and keg. Both are developing spotty white spots on surface, moreso in keg.
Carboy: Bready nose, slightly funky (Erica thought it smelled like poo, I disagree), very little tartness in nose. There is a mild tang in the flavor. Wheat malt is still strong, I hope the sourness develops more, should add some Cuvee Renee dregs to the carboy as well.
Keg: Very similar nose to the carboy sample, but the taste is a bit more sour, broad on the palate, nice clean finish, wheaty breadiness is pleasant.

Ryan_PA said:

After some reading, I think I may pitch some Cal Ale or Nottingham with the bugs, no boil, no additional cracked grains. Anyone want to chime in and let me know if this is a good approach?

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I always make a big starter with the lactobacillus 10-14 days ahead of time. When it's time to pitch, I use a kolsch yeast along with the lacto. You can pitch the ale yeast a few hours before the lacto, but I pitch them together. I like to keep it as simple as possible, although sometimes I will do an overnight mash just for the heck of it.

I pitched a lacto culture in one and made a lacto starter from grain in another fermenter, let both sit for 48 hours and then pitched yeast. The grain starter isn't nearly sour enough, I think I got enough wild yeast from the grain that it took over. The lacto culture (Wyeast 5335) one is just right. Mine was from boil, though, if you do a no-boil you may have a different result.

Okay. I guess I will just go forward with the bugs and yeast together then. I will most likely drain the mash Weds morning.

Cool I'll be interested in how your no-boil version turns out.

Assuming I don't get botulism, I'll be sure to let you know.

Mine is turning out nicely.

Tart and crisp.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ive-got-bug-118242/

Ryan_PA said:

Assuming I don't get botulism, I'll be sure to let you know.

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As long as you let it age 60 days before drinking you will be fine. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have the wild beers of Belgium.

What makes 60 days the number? Is there a scientific process that happens during this period?

I just brewed one Sunday night. I brewed a tasty one last year with the Wyeast Berliner blend, so I had been hoping they would release it again.

60% pils, 40% wheat malt, 1 oz of hallertau in the mash. Mashed in @125, thick decoction to get it up to 145, infusion to get it to 154. Batch sparged. Brought just to a boil, then chilled to 80 and pitched a small slurry of lacto and US-05 from a friend along with a touch of Brett L.

Planning on adding raspberries to half of it in a month or two.

Question that someone raised at hbc, that I don't know the answer to: okay, so, ohiobrewtus made a b-weisse recently and just pitched lactobacillus...he wants it really sour. I was thinking of doing the same thing (I brewed my bweisse on Friday and pitched the lacto only, which took off over the weekend), but someone asked a question that had never occurred to me, and which I cannot answer:

does lactobacillus delbrueckii produce alcohol?

God I hope so. I never thought of that before, I just assumed it did. It does eat sugars, I just figured there would be the same, or similar, by-products of other sugar eating organisms.

Lactobacillus delbrueckii is a homofermentative organism that produces lactic acid only. Source = Microbiology and Technology of Fermented Foods by Hutkins.

Lacto cannot be your sole fermenter as far as I know. You have to pitch yeast with them. You may delay the pitching of yeast to allow the lacto do their thing without alcohol's presence, but you need to pitch some sort of yeast eventually.

ChrisKennedy said:

Lacto cannot be your sole fermenter as far as I know. You have to pitch yeast with them. You may delay the pitching of yeast to allow the lacto do their thing without alcohol's presence, but you need to pitch some sort of yeast eventually.

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Agreed, but wait too long and the lactic acid will make for some very unhappy Sacch.

Won't lactobacillus also shut itself down after it produces ~1% lactic acid in the solution? And doesn't this happen after only fermenting around 1P worth of sugar?

Those are certainly the ballpark numbers, but even 1% acid is enough to impact most Sacch strains. A friend of mine recently did a 48 hour pre-ferment with lacto, then pitched US-05. The beer is super-sour, but it stalled at 1.009 (pretty high for the yeast/wort combination and there is some acetaldehyde).

I thought L. delbrueckii could only ferment lactose?

PseudoChef said:

I thought L. delbrueckii could only ferment lactose?

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That's what they say at crappypedia...but there sure as sh*t is no lactose in my b-weisse, and it fermented something...wtf?

Evan! said:

Question that someone raised at hbc, that I don't know the answer to: okay, so, ohiobrewtus made a b-weisse recently and just pitched lactobacillus...he wants it really sour. I was thinking of doing the same thing (I brewed my bweisse on Friday and pitched the lacto only, which took off over the weekend), but someone asked a question that had never occurred to me, and which I cannot answer:

does lactobacillus delbrueckii produce alcohol?

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I would try contacting wyeast or white labs (or whichever company you got the lacto from). I vaguely recall that one of them produced alcohol, and the other didn't...but I don't remember where I heard this from or if it was even valid...

I just ordered Brettanomyces Bruxellensis and Brettanomyces Lambicus and it said usually added after primary fermentation has begun and usually used with other yeasts so I was assuming that is what is usually done but I was assuming that was a style and I was going to try them alone but now am I to understand I may need another yeast with them to produce alcohol?
I tried doing a search and got tired of reading all the threads that had Brettanomyces in them so excuse me for being lazy and just asking the question.

That is what I have come to learn as well. I just filled the carboy this morning, and allowed the wort to chill after the mashout. I just pitched the lacto about an hour ago, and will add the yeast (US05) in the AM.

lacto delbrueckii is homofermentative, meaning it ONLY produces lactic acid, now there are other lactic bacteria that will produce other things, but both WY and WL strains only produce lactic acid

Jgln

- Brett produces alcohol, but will also metabolize almost all esters produces by other yeast/bacteria and make them its own

- You mustve been pretty lazy searching, there are lots of people that do 100% brett ferments, in fact Ive got two going right now, one with Brett C and the other with brett L, on its own it doesnt get as funky as when its used as a secondary strain (needs those other yeasts byproducts for crazy amounts of funk)

Ryan PA
- depending on how sour you want this you might even wait up to 2days before pitching US05, both WY and WL strains are horribly intollerant of hops, and need quite awhile to do their thing,

ryane said:

Ryan PA
- depending on how sour you want this you might even wait up to 2days before pitching US05, both WY and WL strains are horribly intollerant of hops, and need quite awhile to do their thing,

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Cool. Will do, thanks. FWIW I am fermenting warm with the bugs, and plan to move to the cooler basement when I pitch the yeast. Sound like a good plan?

ryane said:

lacto delbrueckii is homofermentative, meaning it ONLY produces lactic acid, now there are other lactic bacteria that will produce other things, but both WY and WL strains only produce lactic acid

Jgln

- Brett produces alcohol, but will also metabolize almost all esters produces by other yeast/bacteria and make them its own

- You mustve been pretty lazy searching, there are lots of people that do 100% brett ferments, in fact Ive got two going right now, one with Brett C and the other with brett L, on its own it doesnt get as funky as when its used as a secondary strain (needs those other yeasts byproducts for crazy amounts of funk)

Ryan PA
- depending on how sour you want this you might even wait up to 2days before pitching US05, both WY and WL strains are horribly intollerant of hops, and need quite awhile to do their thing,

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Thanks for the info that answers my question and explains the use of other yeasts and maybe I was lazy but it was hard to tell if they were not using other yeasts and not mentioning or they just didn't know what they were doing kind of like some of the people posting their questions here.
I had to place an order for grain, hops and yeasts and decided to try them but I have to admit never used them before and have not done a lot of reading here on this topic.

ryane said:

lacto delbrueckii is homofermentative, meaning it ONLY produces lactic acid, now there are other lactic bacteria that will produce other things, but both WY and WL strains only produce lactic acid

Jgln

- Brett produces alcohol, but will also metabolize almost all esters produces by other yeast/bacteria and make them its own

- You mustve been pretty lazy searching, there are lots of people that do 100% brett ferments, in fact Ive got two going right now, one with Brett C and the other with brett L, on its own it doesnt get as funky as when its used as a secondary strain (needs those other yeasts byproducts for crazy amounts of funk)

Ryan PA
- depending on how sour you want this you might even wait up to 2days before pitching US05, both WY and WL strains are horribly intollerant of hops, and need quite awhile to do their thing,

Click to expand...

Somehow the lacto d. too mine from 1.032 to 1.011 in a couple days. I pitched dry yeast at that point, but I doubt the dry will do much with the remaining sugars.

I am not sure that is possible. As far as I have read, it is a pretty even conversion of percent sugar into percent lactic acid. As a result, if the Lacto d fermented 5P (which is roughly 5% sugar), you would have 5% lactic acid. 1% lactic acid is considered extremely tart.

I am thinking something else is working with the lacto. Can you explain your procedures?

jgln
Hey man no worries, I meant the comment to be a bit more tongue and cheek, guess Im not real good at doing that in a post

I have to agree with chriskennedy though, something else is going on in your BW, 1032 to 1011 lacto only?!?! was this a no boil recipe?

Mine has just carbonated and I'm going to let it sit a couple more weeks but it is already fantastic. Recipe courtesy of JoeMcPhee at Ratebeer

4lbs Pils Malt
4lbs Wheat Malt
0.5 oz Hallertau hops.

Remove 0.5 lbs of the total malt bill.
Protein rest at 120 for 30 min
Add hops raise to mash at 154 for 60 minutes
Mash out at 175 for 10 minutes
Collect 6 gallons
Cool and split into two buckets 1.5 gal and 4.5 gal
Pitch a packet of Nottingham with the 4.5 gal and ferment around 60
Dump the unmashed grain into the 1.5 gal and keep covered as close to 90 as possible
I left both for a week, the souring batch should be quite gross looking and very sour. Strain through cheesecloth and combine with the 4.5 gal batch. Let sit 2 more days and transfer to secondary.
Bottle after a week at 3atm.
OG 1.031 FG 1.006

It is a lovely substitute for lemonade as far as I'm concerned. I came a little short on my OG and mine fermented all the way down to 1.003. It will get the body most from the carbonation.

ryane said:

jgln
Hey man no worries, I meant the comment to be a bit more tongue and cheek, guess Im not real good at doing that in a post

I have to agree with chriskennedy though, something else is going on in your BW, 1032 to 1011 lacto only?!?! was this a no boil recipe?

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I kind of took it that way but I think your comment above is not for me someone else, Evan I think.

Anybody doing a berliner with using just lacto strain figure out whether or not it was also producing alcohol (which I suppose would make it not simply just a pure lacto strain)? Just curious...

iamjonsharp said:

Anybody doing a berliner with using just lacto strain figure out whether or not it was also producing alcohol (which I suppose would make it not simply just a pure lacto strain)? Just curious...

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ohiobrewtus has one with just lacto pitched, but I don't think there's any way to determine if there is any alcohol produced without some sort of mass spec or something.

I brewed 3 gallons of BW on May 30th and had the same gravity thing... OG was 1.033, and after a few days of just the lacto sitting on it, tonight it was at 1.010 or so. It even looked like a krausen had formed, based on the trub stuck on the sides / top of the fermenter. I guess it could've been a spontaneous wild yeast fermentation, since (correct me if I'm mistaken) the lacto itself wouldn't do a whole lot to inhibit a wild yeast from doing its thing.

I just moved mine to a new carboy to condition, the gravity was at 1.008. I had a healthy quality check too, for my first berliner (and my first sour) I think I am on to something here. While it is lacking a little sourness that I would have hoped for, it is pretty close to the one I remember from last summer. It is super crisp, light and hazy, and there is an apparent sourness. I was really hoping for an o-ring puckering sourness, instead I have a nice acidic slap of the tonsils. I do not think it will devlop any more acidity naturally. I had thought I would just add lactic acid at kegging if I needed to add sourness, but I'm not gonna. I am going to let this one ride out as is.

If I had to do it over (which I will for sure), I would have taken a gallon or two of the wort, and pitched some aciduated malt on it and let it do its thing for at least a week. I would do the other 3-4 gallons the exact same way as I did for this batch.

Once kegged (or bottled) I will report back with my final thoughts on this one.

Ryan_PA said:

I just moved mine to a new carboy to condition, the gravity was at 1.008. I had a healthy quality check too, for my first berliner (and my first sour) I think I am on to something here. While it is lacking a little sourness that I would have hoped for, it is pretty close to the one I remember from last summer. It is super crisp, light and hazy, and there is an apparent sourness. I was really hoping for an o-ring puckering sourness, instead I have a nice acidic slap of the tonsils. I do not think it will devlop any more acidity naturally. I had thought I would just add lactic acid at kegging if I needed to add sourness, but I'm not gonna. I am going to let this one ride out as is.

If I had to do it over (which I will for sure), I would have taken a gallon or two of the wort, and pitched some aciduated malt on it and let it do its thing for at least a week. I would do the other 3-4 gallons the exact same way as I did for this batch.

Once kegged (or bottled) I will report back with my final thoughts on this one.

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Go out and buy yourself a bottle of Lindeman's Cuvee Rene. It is an awesome sour and I have had good results in my Berliner Weiss with the dregs. I added the dregs to 5 gallons of a Berliner that wasn't sour at all, while the other 5gals of the same batch had some sourness. In about 1.5-2 weeks, the keg that wasn't sour at all was a bit more sour than the other fermenter.

its ironic- i just came back into town (media) to go to a wedding since i used to live here and at iron hill tonight they had a weiss. I thought it was great...it has inspired me to go try and brew this...can anyone tell me why the decoctions and also how long this needs to sit with the pelicle to become adequately sour. I have no experience with sour beers whatsoever but i would love to try this.