Brewhemoth conicals?

pjcampbell said:

i posed this question to Josh but wanted to ask for the masses also .

Does anyone bulk carbonate in the Brehemoth (or other) and if so, how does the process of transferring already carbonated beer to individual kegs work (or not work...). Doesn't it get all foamy?

Is the solution simply to carbonate individually. Obviously bulk carbonating is more convenient in theory. But if it causes many problems during the transfer of the beer then maybe not so much.

Thanks...

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Those of us that pressure ferment in a sankey, counter pressure tranfer all the time to a serving vessel. It works great.

Read some (or all if you have a week!) of Wortmonger's thread on pressure fermentation for more info.

I ran a test of the CIP sprayball I'll be using. Looks like it'll work great, even with a March pump! P/N is in the video description.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5s2Srt67TM]Clean in place (CIP) rotating spray ball test for the new conical fermenter - YouTube[/ame]

-Joe

Nice, looks like it will work great. Been wanting to test mine like that just at a 60gpm flow rate I don't feel like getting soaked. LOL

Ok so I tried to drill through the cap, but the stainless laughed at my drill bits. Going to have to find some Cobalt bits to get through this stuff.



In the meantime, I ghetto rigged it up - turns out the 1/2" pipe nipple is almost a precise fit in the 1" tri-clamp fitting. A wrap of electrical tape made a very snug fit, then I just screwed the CIP ball on the inside.



Worked like a charm! I hooked everything up after heating some water in my boil kettle, put a scoop of Oxyclean in the bottom of the conical...



And broke out the waterproof camera

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it-lp6NuRpg]Clean in place (CIP) sprayball live in my Brewhemoth - YouTube[/ame]

-Joe

How many gallons of wort do you think you could fit in there/finished beer including losses?

The biggest I have ever done is about 19 gallons with about 18.5 being viable for kegging. I did this under pressure and had no blowoff.

PJ - I ferment 14.5 gallons in a Sanke keg and I get about a quart or two of blow-off, which I divert to another pressure vessel (keg) for top cropping. Fill er up. Pressure fermenting tamps the krausen down.

Joe - I've got the same sprayball. I use an LG 2-MD-HC pump that gives me 5.5 GPM. Fairly similar to your march I believe. I don't think I have enough fluid speed and am spinning my wheels, so to say. After 30 mins with warm PBW I still have to take a green scrubby to it to get the krausen ring off.

I'd love to hear about yours in use and if it works out. I ended up getting a carboycleaner (the sanke version) which doesn't fully take care of it either. Still trying to figure it all. In the end, I leaning towards the idea that you need one hell of a pump for CIP (more powerful than I can use for a whirlpool) but I could be wrong.

Ok, so after one batch, I wasn't happy with the temp stratification I was getting on a 10 gallon batch with the chiller coils. Since I'm going to do a 15 gallon batch next time, it's only going to be worse. So I here's how I fixed the problem:

First, cut the weld for the top line free


Stretch! (and cut the excess line off)


And now it runs much higher, so I shouldn't have a warm layer on top.


I still need to reweld or solder the top fitting, but should have that done shortly.

Shockerengr, that's brilliant. I may do the exact same thing.

-Joe

I totally stole your idea and posted pix of the process over in my Brewhemoth picture thread.



-Joe

I just won the grand prize in the raffle at the St Louis Brews Holiday Homebrew Competition. It was a Brewhemoth with all the bells and whistles (tri-clamps, pressurizer, chiller coil, even valves for a ready-to-go rig). Thanks to Josh and Dale for the fantastic donation.

After reading this entire thread, I realize that several of you helped to develop this product to its current refined state. I'm quite excited to take it on its maiden voyage, and equally excited to use it to try closed-system pressurized fermentation. I just have to build a spunding valve and put it on the pressurizer attachment. Temp control will wait till spring, the basement is nice and cool right now. When it warms up I'll get a small pump and use my keezer to chill a glycol reservoir (bucket).

I've been bragging this around a bit and figured you all might best understand just how freaking lucky I feel right now.

Sigh... Just saw the price jump. Back to the drawing board...

Heres my Brewhemoth, getting it set up. Have the spunding valve on it and to the left is the wine cooler that I'm going to try to use for temperature control.

DustyTheBrewer said:

Sigh... Just saw the price jump. Back to the drawing board...

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I just came on to comment on this. When did this happen? I bought a triclamp Brewhemoth in August for $450. I was thinking of getting a second one, only to find that the price had gone up almost $200.

No disrespect meant to these guys, but just as an FYI for anyone considering this product, I would say it's no longer worth the money. For one, it has a 45 degree cone. Most other conicals have a steeper (60 degree) cone, which drains the trub and the yeast more effectively. I imagine other conicals are easier to clean too because they don't have such a narrow lid/cover. My two cents.

Ebloom, would you buy another one if they were still the same price as before?

I was just reading someone complaining about yeast getting stuck on the conical section of a V-vessel, those are a much more scute angle and yet the same problems exist. I don't think the conical angle is a reason to criticize this fermentor. I personally like the 4" tri-clamp opening because I'm going to do some pressurized fermentations in it.

I just bought a small fountain pump and hooked it up to the chiller coil, it pumps somewhat slowly but will do the trick for temp control. Not completely set up but I'm ready to brew, thinking my inaugural beer will be a black IPA.

Bruwsomtin said:

Ebloom, would you buy another one if they were still the same price as before?

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I can't speak for him but I would not. I was ready to buy two before the price jump. I'm looking at Stout conicals now. Maybe someone here with some fabrication experience will see this as a business opportunity.

The Stout conicals look to me like they are around the same price for the volume at the new price when you count the cost of valves, but DEFINITELY of lesser quality. EBloom wouldn't you agree with this?

The 4" triclamp top isn't a factor if you're pumping over your wort and using CIP, who doesn't do this at these volumes?

I understand seeing a fantastic deal go away, but take a breath and evaluate the new reality objectively. If you want to brew up to a half barrel of beer, with the optinos of temp control, pressurized fermentation and counter-pressure transfer, the Brewhemoth is the way to go.

Bruwsomtin said:

Ebloom, would you buy another one if they were still the same price as before?

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Yes, I would. I would even pay more than $450 for it, but not $190 more.

Lennie said:

The Stout conicals look to me like they are around the same price for the volume at the new price when you count the cost of valves, but DEFINITELY of lesser quality. EBloom wouldn't you agree with this?

The 4" triclamp top isn't a factor if you're pumping over your wort and using CIP, who doesn't do this at these volumes?

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The only thing I know about stout conicals is that when I was looking into this in August, they were backlogged until December. That was the main factor that made me go with the brewhemoth. As to the quality - I would say if it is stainless steel, and has triclamp fittings, it is of high quality. The brewhemoth might be a bit thicker I guess, which could be valuable...

The main thing for me is the cone angle though. I have never used the 60 degree cone stuff, but I read that the cone angle is enough to make yeast slide down it. So for me, if the two products are the same price, and one has a 60 degree cone, the other a 45 degree cone, then I want the one with the 60 degree cone.

I just related a testimonial about the angle thing, and commercial breweries use 45 degree fermentors too. Do you have a big problem with this in your current fermentor?

I don't think the steel thickness is a lot different, I was pleasantly surprised at how light the Brehemoth was. The difference is in the seal at the top, I don't like the looks of the Stout lids and the closure design. I think it won't seal well. Plus the add-ons for the Brewhemoth are excellent, although that adds to the cost. Bottom line, the quality of the Brewhemoth is better than a low end conical. Hard to believe they were so inexpensive to begin with. They're competitive at a similar price point.

Lennie said:

I just related a testimonial about the angle thing, and commercial breweries use 45 degree fermentors too. Do you have a big problem with this in your current fermentor?

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I guess I was just expecting it to get ALL the yeast out., i.e. I put the beer in the fermenter and after a couple weeks I open the bottom valve, drain the yeast, and then begin a secondary fermentation without having to rack. I was expecting to be able to do this, and I can, but it won't get rid of as much sediment as a re-rack. Maybe it wouldn't be super clean with a 60 degree cone either. I don't know.

You definitely have a point with the lid looking flimsy on the stout tanks, but I do find the 4 inch lid on the brewhemoth to be too small to give it a good hand or even brush scrubbing. So it has upsides and downsides.

I have not had a problem dumping trub and yeast out of my Brewhemoth. I clean it with a CIP sprayball so the 4" lid is a plus and not a negative.

Do you even need to dump yeast prior to racking? Since the racking port is up on the side.

I might try tapping the conical with a rubber mallet every so often to help the yeast slide on down to the bottom.

So do you have problems with sediment in the beer when you rack . What is your procedure? Do you dump and then rack.. or just rack?

Stupid question, but if you dumped first, why couldn't you just rack from the bottom valve?

FWIW I was told that the Stout tanks are not designed to hold pressure.

I don't have either so I am just relaying what I have heard.

'Need' is very subjective I dump mostly to save the yeast for the next batch, but really it just needs to be below the racking port to get a clean rack.

I've seen commercial breweries with both 45 and 60 degree cones. It's not something that even entered into my conical purchase consideration.

But then everyone has their own criteria, however arbitrary it may be I wanted something made in America. Fairly arbitrary, but it's my reason and I stuck with it.

-Joe

I'm saying that I bought this product thinking that it would help me circumvent racking entirely, but still allow for secondary fermentation in the primary vessel after a yeast dump. The 45 degree cone makes that difficult, although maybe the 60 degree cone would have the same problem. Maybe it was just a pipe dream of mine for it to work that way.

The fact that the brewhemoth can hold pressure and the stout tank can't is a HUGE advantage. I'll have to ponder that one. Of course, if I'm going to carb in my conical, I'll want the beer to be clean and sediment free first, so same problem as before...

EBloom97 said:

I'm saying that I bought this product thinking that it would help me circumvent racking entirely, but still allow for secondary fermentation in the primary vessel after a yeast dump. The 45 degree cone makes that difficult, although maybe the 60 degree cone would have the same problem. Maybe it was just a pipe dream of mine for it to work that way.

The fact that the brewhemoth can hold pressure and the stout tank can't is a HUGE advantage. I'll have to ponder that one. Of course, if I'm going to carb in my conical, I'll want the beer to be clean and sediment free first, so same problem as before...

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With a 60* cone it allows the racking port to be further away from the bottom. My fist dump pulls out 3/4 of a gallon of trub and yeast. The cone on the BH only leaves about 2 cups once the racking port is drained all the way. If the cone was longer you would be able to rack from above the yeast.

Does a conical fermentor produce a far superior beer as to fermenting in a glass carboy? For example, would a 38.5 pt BJCP judged beer score higher if it were fermented in a conical?

Bruwsomtin said:

Does a conical fermentor produce a far superior beer as to fermenting in a glass carboy? For example, would a 38.5 pt BJCP judged beer score higher if it were fermented in a conical?

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Not only would it score higher, but the beer would help treat gout, male pattern baldness, sudden diarrhea, and other ailments.

Jokes aside, I can make some really bad beer in my conical! I'd love to tell you all the money I spent on a hunk of stainless has let me make better beer, but I don't know if I can.

For me, my conical makes my job easier (no secondary), allows me to have 20gal batches, helps me with samples, and makes me look like I know what I am doing when I don't.

Great beer can be fermented in just about anything I guess. While I love my brewhemouth, I think the most important item I have that controls the quality of my beer is my fermentation chamber for temp control. (an upright freezer).

But I could be dead wrong.. What do others think?

The main things that I can think of that can improve beer by using a conical are these. 1, you can get rid of the trub in less than 24 hours. 2, you can prevent the beer from having any oxygen contact from the beginning of fermentation till serving, including transferring under pressure into a sealed purged keg.

There are a few aspects that I'm hoping will improve my beer at least slightly. These are all related to the ability of the vessel to hold at least a little pressure, so I suppose they are specific to Brewhemoth and maybe Blichmann.

The first is an airtight, pressurizable setup that will let me to counterpressure transfer to kegs. I've ignored the potential for oxidation for a long time, and some of my beers have suffered. You can limit it in other ways, this is just the most complete way to avoid air.

The second involves being able to carbonate or mostly carbonate using the natural carbonation generated during fermentation. This saves gas, and goes hand in hand with #3.

Third is pressurized fermentation. This is covered in a long thread in the techniques section of the forum, but to summarize a little pressure stimulates yeast to work faster and at slightly higher temps. 7psi is similar to what a large commercial fermentor's head exerts on the yeast.

Bottom line, I've longed to get the same super malt flavors that good craft brews bring, and I'm hoping the Brewhemoth will help me get there. I'm also utilizing secondaries and racking just after the peak of fermentation while bringing most of the yeast along, this gets rid of the head space needed (I don't like blowoff tubes) for krausen and allows the beer to mature with little air exposure.

I'm starting to really like the idea of buying one of these eventually. I think the sediment issue could be solved with a vibrating massage wand on the cone part to slowly coax the yeast completely down the 45* angle. I like that these will hold carbonating pressures even at higher ale fermentation temperatures as well. I think this is a nice piece of equipment.

WortMonger said:

...vibrating massage wand .... I think this is a nice piece of equipment.

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That's what she said.

Woah, massage wand. Multiple uses.

Wortmonger, I'm doing my inaugural batch as a pressurized fermentation with natural carbonation thanks to your mega-thread. Or is it a threadhemoth?

Big Unit is loaded with 11.5gal of wort and when I checked this morning the spunding valve showed 5psi. We're off and running. I don't know if anyone has tried fermenting under pressure in a Brewhemoth, I intend to run at 7psi for a few days then bump to 15psi, then I'll harvest yeast and go to 30psi for carbonation. All in the Brewhemoth, I hope it will take the pressure. I may pressurize it for carbonation using my CO2 tank, I'd rather know the beer was finished than have naturally carbonated green beer.

Next step is buying a pump or figuring out how to get wort into the Brewhemoth conveniently. Holding 6gal of wort in a bottling bucket up at the 4" triclamp opeing while it runs in, has no future. I did batch two in two increments, that was less strenuous but still annoying.

Lennie, your Brewhemoth was leak checked at 160 psi. You will have no worries.

I've been pressure fermenting in mine since I received it earlier this year with no issues. Its very nice to be able to do closed transfers under counter pressure and completely avoid the issue of oxygen exposure during transfer. I think you will find, as I have, that my beers have improved in part due to no oxygen pickup but also in part due to the pressurized fermentation.

What would happen if you just let it build the pressure on it's own? Would you still get the benefits of fermenting under pressure and how far would it go up to in a week or so?

That is generally what I do, pump in at 0psi then set the spunding valve to about 5-10psi and let it build on its own. Some people do it differently but this has worked well for me. I would not let pressure build uncontrolled, excess pressure will eventually start harming the yeast. I generally cap mine when I am about 5 or so points from my FG and that is enough to build up 20+ psi.