IPA - Late LME addition - IBU?

I used an IPA kit last weekend, and following the many posts on this board that suggested a late LME addition I did that at 20 mins.

This was a 60 minute boil , with 1lb of light DME in for whole boil (plus 1.5 lbs of specialty grains steeped before boil)

I followed the hop schedule on the instructions
1.5 oz Chinook (15.5%) for 60 mins
1.0 oz Cascade (5.0%) for 60 mins
1.0 oz Cascade (5.0%) for 5 mins

Question is that when I put all this in Beersmith my IBU is a whopping 110 with the late LME addition, it's 61 without it.

My OG came in right about where the kit said it should 1.060

Question is, will this be a complete hop bomb?
I don't mind hoppy, just wondering what someone else thinks?

Also - I'm guessing if I do another I can just experiment with Beersmith to get my range, does that work well?

Thanks

Did you do a partial boil? As far as I know, the point of adding late addition LME is to keep a constant gravity from partial boil to when you add water to top up to 5.5 gallons.

If you did a full size boil with only 1 lb of DME with those hop additions, your beer is going to be bitter as a mother ****er. With a lower gravity you'll get greater isomerization of your hops and dissolution of alpha acids in your wort.

As far as hop flavor you'll get a little amount from the Cascade late addition but the bulk of that is going to be aroma. Primarily your beer is going to be bitter.

I'm just curious, what was the reasoning for the late addition LME? If its something I've never heard before I'd like to find out about it.

it was a partial boil, started with about 2.75 gallons, then topped up in the fermentor.

I have seen a lot of posts on these boards suggesting to add the LME late in boil
- it's already been boiled, you are just cooking it even more
- leads to a lighter colored finished product

if you do a search on it you'll see a number of posts

Thanks

No, it should be fine. That's a lot of hops at 60 minutes, but you won't get anywhere near 100 IBUs- the IBU calculators are flawed when trying to guestimate IBUs of a partial boil.

Remember that the most you can ever get into a wort is about 100/120 IBUs, as that is the limit of solubility of the hops oils. Once the wort is saturated, it can't "hold" any more.

So, say you did get 100 IBUs in the wort (not likely). Then, you added 2.5 gallons of water at 0 IBUs. That means 2.5 gallons of 100 IBU, plus 2.5 gallons of 0 IBUs- for 50 IBUs if you're lucky.

In other words, don't worry!

Thanks Yooper
That makes a lot of sense, seems like Brewsmith is giving the IBU for the wort at 2.5 gallons.

BPhad said:

Thanks Yooper
That makes a lot of sense, seems like Brewsmith is giving the IBU for the wort at 2.5 gallons.

Click to expand...

Maybe. There are some issues with IBU calcuators with partial boils, as well as with lower extract amounts in the boil. They just don't work all that well.

Take a listen to Basic Brewing Radio's talk "what is an IBU really?" for more info on why those calculators just can't really give you an accurate IBU reading with a highly hopped partial boil.

In the software, just treat it as a full boil to get the IBU's going into the fermentor. If you want to have the correct SG for the partial boil there's a little math you can do.

Say the recipe calls for a 1.045 pre-boil gravity. LME is about 1.036 per pound per gallon. So to figure out how much to use in your partial boil volume to achieve the 1.045 gravity do this:

45 (preboil gravity) X 3 gallons (partial boil) = 135 gravity points

THEN

135 gravity points / 36 points per pound per gallon (extract contribution) = 3.75 pounds of LME to achieve your pre-boil gravity. Doing it this way allows you to use your 5 gallon recipe hop schedule and quantities because the hops only care about gravity, not the volume of the boil.

BPhad said:

it was a partial boil, started with about 2.75 gallons, then topped up in the fermentor.

I have seen a lot of posts on these boards suggesting to add the LME late in boil
- it's already been boiled, you are just cooking it even more
- leads to a lighter colored finished product

if you do a search on it you'll see a number of posts

Thanks

Click to expand...

OK, that makes more sense. I thought you were saying you had added extract late in a full boil which I've never heard of before. Like the others are saying, as long as your gravity remains constant your IBUs will as well.

helibrewer said:

Doing it this way allows you to use your 5 gallon recipe hop schedule and quantities because the hops only care about gravity, not the volume of the boil.

Click to expand...

actually, gravity doesnt have much effect on utilization. its more closely related to break material which was initially correlated to gravity

dcp27 said:

actually, gravity doesnt have much effect on utilization. its more closely related to break material which was initially correlated to gravity

Click to expand...

True, but gravity is the only practical measurement we have. Matching gravities prevents you from having to adjust hop quantities. Most folks doing extract or partial mash kits don't want to have to go out and buy/weigh hops and figure out how much to add for the partial boil.

Siebel teaches 32% utilization for EVERY hop addition. So if I want a 45 IBU beer, that's 45 mg/L of alpha acid or about 1 gram in a 23 L batch. With 32% utilization we would need 1/.32 = 3.125 grams of alpha acid.

If the hops are 5.5% AA then 3.125/.055 = 56.8 grams or about 2 ounces of hops.

Hmmm. I did something like this with a double though I used much more extract and had a 4 gallon boil. I hope I didn't ruin mine either.

I like bitter beers (ruination is a favorite) so I'm not too worried. Mine was 6lbs @ 60 minute and 3lbs @ 15 min, though i added 4 ounces....

great now i'm scared too!

helibrewer said:

Matching gravities prevents you from having to adjust hop quantities.... Siebel teaches 32% utilization for EVERY hop addition. .

Click to expand...

maybe im missing something here, but why would you need to match gravity if its 32% utilization regardless?

helibrewer said:

True, but gravity is the only practical measurement we have. Matching gravities prevents you from having to adjust hop quantities. Most folks doing extract or partial mash kits don't want to have to go out and buy/weigh hops and figure out how much to add for the partial boil.

Siebel teaches 32% utilization for EVERY hop addition. So if I want a 45 IBU beer, that's 45 mg/L of alpha acid or about 1 gram in a 23 L batch. With 32% utilization we would need 1/.32 = 3.125 grams of alpha acid.

If the hops are 5.5% AA then 3.125/.055 = 56.8 grams or about 2 ounces of hops.

Click to expand...

Isn't this only for commercial batches though? I was under the impression that this was only applicable because it takes breweries longer to cool down their wort. Also, this is the first time I've ever heard utilization corresponding to break material. If this is true does that mean that extract beers have more hop utilization since they have less break material? If someone could explain that I'd like to know more.

dcp27 said:

maybe im missing something here, but why would you need to match gravity if its 32% utilization regardless?

Click to expand...

Sorry, as amazinglarry has pointed out, this applies to the full boil/commercial world. However, hops isomerize well below boiling temps so the reason homebrewers don't get much bitterness out of late hop additions is because we cool the wort so fast. Commercial guys whirlpool and take much longer to cool so they have to account for increased IBU's with late additions.

amazinglarry said:

Also, this is the first time I've ever heard utilization corresponding to break material. If this is true does that mean that extract beers have more hop utilization since they have less break material? If someone could explain that I'd like to know more.

Click to expand...

it had something to do with the break material causing the hop oils to precipitate out. I can;t remember how it works for extracts, but I know BYO did some study adding extract at different times and it had little effect. not sure if they said which one the IBUs correlated best with. i kno theres threads on here that talk about both if you search enough. IBU calculation is pretty much just a crapshoot anyway, so just stick with one way and it'll stay relative

dcp27 said:

maybe im missing something here, but why would you need to match gravity if its 32% utilization regardless?

Click to expand...

That's the point- you don't need to match gravity. That's an outdated thought, although now John Palmer says that the hops oils "cling" to break material which DOES impact utilization somewhat.

The hops utilization of a 1.030 wort and a 1.080 will not be all that different.

deleted

Yooper said:

That's the point- you don't need to match gravity. That's an outdated thought, although now John Palmer says that the hops oils "cling" to break material which DOES impact utilization somewhat.

The hops utilization of a 1.030 wort and a 1.080 will not be all that different.

Click to expand...

Now I’m really lost. The Tinseth formulas and some of the software, including Brewtarget, show a strong relationship between boil gravity and hop utilization. I all this changing? My taste buds agree with the strong relationship between boil gravity and hop utilization.

ncbrewer said:

Now I’m really lost. The Tinseth formulas and some of the software, including Brewtarget, show a strong relationship between boil gravity and hop utilization. I all this changing? My taste buds agree with the strong relationship between boil gravity and hop utilization.

Click to expand...

Yes. John Palmer himself has been saying that there is no relationship between gravity and hops utilization, and that he "got it wrong" in How To Brew when he wrote it. I'm no scientist, but he explained it to me last summer, at least the jist of it. It made sense to me, so I believed him, but we were both drinking at the time.

If you want to delve into the science behind it, I know he has done several podcasts on Basic Brewing Radio talking about IBUs, utilization, and boil gravity as well as some on his own podcast, Brew Strong.

I think Glenn Tinseth has done some recent papers on this as well, but I don't have links handy to them at the moment.

Here's Glenn Tinseth's article on the subject, done in conjunction with the USDA hop lab and Oregon State University's Perception lab. It shows a utilization difference of 1.5 times between a 1.030 and 1.080 wort for a 60 minute boil.

http://realbeer.com/hops/research.html

It's an interesting article, 1 page.

As in every science I guess the experts don't always agree

helibrewer said:

Here's Glenn Tinseth's article on the subject, done in conjunction with the USDA hop lab and Oregon State University's Perception lab. It shows a utilization difference of 1.5 times between a 1.030 and 1.080 wort for a 60 minute boil.

http://realbeer.com/hops/research.html

It's an interesting article, 1 page.

As in every science I guess the experts don't always agree

Click to expand...

I don't see a date on that- I've some newer writings, and I believe they are by Tinseth but I be darned if I remember where I stashed that info!

Yooper said:

I don't see a date on that- I've some newer writings, and I believe they are by Tinseth but I be darned if I remember where I stashed that info!

Click to expand...

I just like looking at your avatar If you ever track it down I'd be curious...I couldn't find a date either.

heres a recent podcast w/ tinseth that brings up gravity & utilization: http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/02/10/beer-bitterness-and-ibus-with-glenn-tinseth-bshb-podcast-9/

dcp27 said:

heres a recent podcast w/ tinseth that brings up gravity & utilization: http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/02/10/beer-bitterness-and-ibus-with-glenn-tinseth-bshb-podcast-9/

Click to expand...

Thanks!

dcp27 said:

heres a recent podcast w/ tinseth that brings up gravity & utilization: http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/02/10/beer-bitterness-and-ibus-with-glenn-tinseth-bshb-podcast-9/

Click to expand...

I'm on my net book- can you give me the Cliff's Notes until I can give it a listen?

think was basically he doesnt believe its the wort concentration that causes the dip, but its best correlation. its long tho so i didn't listen to it in full

dcp27 said:

think was basically he doesnt believe its the wort concentration that causes the dip, but its best correlation. its long tho so i didn't listen to it in full

Click to expand...

Then he's in line with what Palmer is saying. That there is a small dip, but it's not due to gravity that causes it? Palmer says it "could be break material" that causes some dip in utilization, but I'm sure that Palmer said it really wasn't significant as previously thought.

pretty much, but i think he believes its more of an effect than Palmer. he does mention some study involving a number of breweries showing lil effect, but the gravities used were a close range, like 1.045 - 1.055, so he discredits the non-effect

This is a direct quote from the linked podcast:

"I don't think that it's the actual concentration of the sugars in the wort that are necessarily the cause of the decrease in utilization but it's a strong correlation. The use of the words is more imporant. In science, we're always measuring correlations and we have no idea whether it's actually the cause, but if it works to make calculations, to be useful to us, then the correlation is fine; we don't have to know why, we just have to know it's correlated."

Earlier in the podcast Tinseth is agreeing with the common postulate that higher gravity = lower utilization, saying that "any brewer that you know knows that you're gonna have to add more hops if you're boiling 1.100 OG vs. 1.040 OG".

Hop utilization calculated using Tinseth's equations is defined as

decimal alpha acid utilization = Bigness factor * Boil Time factor

As stated in the podcast, the "Bigness factor" is calculated using wort gravity. Tinseth states that the equations are empiracally derived to fit his data, implying that there has been an experimentally-observed (negative) correlation between wort gravity and utilization.

So while the sugar that contribute to the boil gravity may not be the determining factor in hop utilization, boil gravity correlates with hop utilization, whether from break proteins or some other device.

Update
Beer finished fermenting at 1.012
Tasted OK, lots of bite but no real aroma.
I'm considering dry hopping with some cascade and centennial in the final 5 days before bottling it.
Going to move it to back of basement, 58 degrees , for a couple weeks and hope it clears up a bit.

Thanks for everyone's comments.