Ethical/moral dilemma on "beer brewing research grant"

I have been brewing for just over two years now and made the jump to all grain 16+ months ago. In the last year I have started kegging and moving into 8-10 gallon size batches. For a recipe/style that many of my friends like I usually will keg 1/2 and bottle 1/2 of an 8-10 gallon brew session and give all of the bottles away. I like to do this because it gives me the opportunity to receive feedback from non-brewers that do enjoy home brew and motivates me to challenge myself with trying different styles including some that I don't care much for but my swmbo and select friends love.

All of the beer I have given away has either been treated as a gift or a thankyou to friends that have helped me and my wife move and adjust to having our first child. (We are in our early 40's and have been married just two years.) I never expected anything in return for the beer I enjoy sharing except that people return the bottles to me (hopefully w/o mold or baby mice but that happens).

Here is the dilemma: One couple that I have probably given 6-8 cases of beer to in the last two years decided to give me a $200 check as a grant to continue to buy materials for further research in my brewing hobby. While I greatly appreciate the gesture, I am not certain that I could really accept this w/o breaking or bending some kind of law. I am still well under the limit of producing 200 gallons per resisdent adult per year and do not want to set any future expectation or break any law. They consider this to be a one time gift but I have read on the forum that this is can be a very gray area.

My swmbo says just take the money, say thank you and pour a cold one. She is an avid knitter and will make friends knitted items if they purchase the materials. I tried explaining that this is not the same as with making beer or wine.

Am I just making way too big of a deal about this (like she says I am)?

He's not buying your beer, he's investing in upgrading your equipment.

Doesn't he know Christmas isn't until December? Oh well, I would never turn down a gift, no matter how early.

Do not talk about fight club....

Also, listen to your wife.

so a friend of yours basically gave you a giftcard to everywhere because you have been a good friend to him in the past. i don't see how this is even remotely bending any laws.

I wouldn't have any problem with it. I might even be up for my buddies to buy me ingredients and then they can have the beer just so I can brew more. I have no problem with bending the law tho. Aint a crime if you don't get caught.

EdWort said:

He's not buying your beer, he's investing in upgrading your equipment.

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+1 Unless the guy said here is 200 bucks please make me 10 gallons of beer, you are not breaking the law. You have to SELL him beer to be breaking the law, but since any beer you give him is clearly a gift that you clearly expected no money for, they would be hard pressed to have a case against you or even bother wasting their time with it.It is also not illegal if they go out and buy you ingredients and ask you to brew a batch for them, it is only illegal if you hand them a case of beer and they hand you cash to pay you for that case of beer. RDWHAHB

There is no problem at all. It's no different then if your friend came over for bar-b-que every couple weeks, and then decided to give you some cash to help pay back all the food they had eaten, and to ensure more food would be coming along. You wouldn't have a problem with that would you?

Don't sweat it at all.

RDWHAHB

Nobody would have known about it if you hadn't posted it here. If a crime was indeed committed I'd have had a hard time figuring out who the victim was.

The second rule of fight club is that you do not talk about fight club.

I believe it is in your best interest to google "namby pamby".

Then go apologize to your friends for being such and hug them for the kind gesture.

_

Or Google "sale" is the action you were in? This isn't rocket science

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sale

sale
n.
1. The exchange of goods or services for an amount of money or its equivalent; the act of selling.
2. An instance of selling.
3. An opportunity for selling or being sold; demand.
4. Availability for purchase: a store where pets are for sale.
5. A selling of property to the highest bidder; an auction.
6. A special disposal of goods at lowered prices: coats on sale this week.
7. sales
a. Activities involved in selling goods or services.
b. Gross receipts.

tomorrow go to the grocery store and take 6-8 cases of tomatoes.
tell them that if you enjoy them, you might come back and help them get more.
but you won't tell them if you are, when you are, or whether you aren't.

if that works, give back the check. (and tell them that you like tomatoes).

p.s. a friend of mine bought a cornelius keg from a company that i bought 6 from. It is his, and it sits at my house empty. once in a while it gets filled and dissapears for 4-8 days at a time......

... coincidence?

Seriously?

Listen to your wife, SWMBO is wise.

Thanks for all of the advice. I can see now that I was worried about nothing and I should just accept the fact the many of my firends enjoy my beer more than typical BMC brews.

Swmbo and I are headed to the Twin Cities in two weeks for our second anniversery. She wants to attend a knitting convention which means I know have free time to visit Northern Brewer and Midwest brewing to stock up on specialty grains, hops and yeast.

For there to be a sale, there has to be intent. There's no intent here, not even implied. A sale does not have to have all the trappings of a normal purchase to be illegal, but in this case, without intent, there is no sale. Understand what I mean?

If I gave you $200 because I knew that you requested that to keep giving me beer, than there is intent in the transaction. If I gave you $200, on my own volition, because I knew it cost you money to make the beer that you graciously give me as a gift, there is no intent to purchase more beer, but rather to return the favor of kindness, which you gave to me.

Airborneguy said:

For there to be a sale, there has to be intent. There's no intent here, not even implied. A sale does not have to have all the trappings of a normal purchase to be illegal, but in this case, without intent, there is no sale. Understand what I mean?

If I gave you $200 because I knew that you requested that to keep giving me beer, than there is intent in the transaction. If I gave you $200, on my own volition, because I knew it cost you money to make the beer that you graciously give me as a gift, there is no intent to purchase more beer, but rather to return the favor of kindness, which you gave to me.

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Good explaination Airborne. In NZ it is all to do with tax, our liquor laws are for the supply of alcohol (note supply not sale), you can't even legally give someone alcohol without breaking the law (ok there are certain exemptions to stop it being crazy). The govenrment wants the tax they collect from the devil drink, also you here you can only gift a maximum of $10k (i think) and then you have to pay gift tax (thats $10k total for all your gifting each year including goods and services).
It's all about the tax

I don't get why people are so afraid of breaking the law. Rules were made to be broken.

If you stand to face zero consequences, it hurts no one and it benefits you, forget the law.

You will be fine!! That can't be any more illegal than a buddy giving me a twelve pack of Sierra Nevada for helping him move. Airborneguy is right....there has to be intent to sell and that has to be proven in a court of law. In reality law enforcement, TTB, ABC, and the judicial system have much bigger issues to deal with than a genuinely honest citizen getting a little money for making homebrew.

Don't take the money.

Forget the legalities. Be a dude and just brew. Keep giving them beer. Remember the esprit de corps of the homebrew community. Don't charge your friends for it; you'll be sorry in the end.

In the future, when you're not sure what to do, doing the right thing is by far the best thing to do.

Ask yourself why they want to give you money. Prolly, they feel guilty. Plant the seeds of generosity there, and let them know why you brew, and why you've been generous enough to offer them the product of your efforts. It's great to have people to share your beer with.

Too bad you figured it out already. I was going to charge you 70 dollars tax to clear your conscience. I take paypal.

wildwest450 said:

I believe it is in your best interest to google "namby pamby".

Then go apologize to your friends for being such and hug them for the kind gesture.

_

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Ditto that! Seriously, there is no harm or foul here -don't make one out of it -be gracious and accept it as the compliment it is.
You did not sell the product.
When I bring my "super kegger" to some of the motorcycle rallies I attend (only the ones we camp at for the weekend -anything less isn't worth the effort) I usually leave a tip jar (didn't used to but it was actually requested of me) and it is made VERY clear that there is NO charge to enjoy the homebrew.
Certainly nothing wrong with donations to offset the ingredient cost.

Just don't label the tip jar as tips. Tips are taxable. Donations arent. WTTW

Personally, I think it'd depend on the relationship you have with them. If you don't see them that often, once or twice a year, even for the 2 year period, don't take the money. If you're poker buddies or something and you see the couple every week, and are really good friends, it might be different.

It could also depend on if they're incredibly wealthy too. Or just moderately well off and probably shouldn't be giving away money. Also, are you independantly wealthy or barely making ends meet (don't answer that, it's hypothetical) because you might consider that too.

(For example in a different condition, if you didn't make or share beer at all, they could just be giving you money for the kid or something because they're close friends. Would that be different in intent?)

Unfortunately, it's a pretty tough judgement call and a lot of factors can play into it. If I knew them well and felt the conditions were right, I'd accept it, make sure I spend it on brewing equipment and continue beer gifting. And if it wasn't right based on the person, I'd decline it and have them pay the next round of golf or something.

Imagine a friend and his wife came over for dinner, and offered you money for it....

Yea not sure why your posting this. Thats cool about giving out beers and such that made sense but as soon as you started weirding out about money it sounded like you were retarded. Just take it or dont. Personally I wont take any money from anyone because my beers are not for sale period. Its just too much work for very little money.

onthekeg said:

Just don't label the tip jar as tips. Tips are taxable. Donations arent. WTTW

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Good point! In any case, I always make clear that I get my enjoyment out of watching other people enjoy my brews -I have no interest in selling it (or all the legality involved in such) -its also why I provide a variety (every year I have added a flavor and two kegs, every year I come back with about a keg total..)

To the OP, you stated that you tell SWMBO that this is not the same as 'making beer or wine' (the knitting) -WHY? Both involve time, craftsmanship and materials (hers may be yarn instead of various grains and hops -and lets not forget the heroes -Yeast) but you both must put forth the effort and you both rely upon your experience to make the best product you can. Other than the actual product, its not all that different IMHO.

Nightbiker said:

To the OP, you stated that you tell SWMBO that this is not the same as 'making beer or wine' (the knitting) -WHY? Both involve time, craftsmanship and materials (hers may be yarn instead of various grains and hops -and lets not forget the heroes -Yeast) but you both must put forth the effort and you both rely upon your experience to make the best product you can. Other than the actual product, its not all that different IMHO.

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EXACTLY!! Obviously we all love to brew but I don't want to go broke giving away beer. But I also don't want to be greedy for NOT giving away free beer. Most of my friends understand this and they make sure I know how much it is "appreciated"

Phunhog said:

EXACTLY!! Obviously we all love to brew but I don't want to go broke giving away beer. But I also don't want to be greedy for NOT giving away free beer. Most of my friends understand this and they make sure I know how much it is "appreciated"

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Don't give it way then. No one's forcing you to do anything.

You guys that charge for your beer (or "accept tips") better accept that you're selling it. Seems like there's a lot of guilt among you.

If you want to sell it, I'm all for it, but quit with the weird "skirting around the issue" thing. If you accept money for it, you are selling it. I'm not getting legal here, just calling a spade a spade.

Just take the money. Not doing it will not only offend your friend who meant it to be well received, but it's free money. Don't offend your friends, and use the money as intended. Gift him back by brewing a whole batch just for him, name it after him or something he likes, brew it to his tastes. Flatter your patrons, as any true artist does...

Yeah, I'd take the money, say thanks and put it back into the supply chain. It's not payment for beer, it's a donation to your favorite charity.

Going back to the OP...I don't see how it could be an "ethical/moral dilemma". A legal one perhaps, but certainly nothing unethical or immoral. A law,or lack of one, does not make something ethical or moral. Wow.....that's deep

I can't think of a single law that says your friend can't give you money. I also can't think of a single law that says you can't give your friends beer, even if you made it yourself. You just can't charge them for it.

passedpawn said:

Don't give it way then. No one's forcing you to do anything.

You guys that charge for your beer (or "accept tips") better accept that you're selling it. Seems like there's a lot of guilt among you.

If you want to sell it, I'm all for it, but quit with the weird "skirting around the issue" thing. If you accept money for it, you are selling it. I'm not getting legal here, just calling a spade a spade.

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Sorry, guilt not accepted. I do not sell my product since I do not ask for anything in return. IF I were to sell it, payment would be mandatory (and my I get a terminally stuck sparge if this has EVER been the case) -likewise, I brew what I like to drink -and it isn't always to the liking of my friends -they are welcome to partake if they wish -no hurt feelings if they don't.
WHY would I feel guilty for being generous with the fruits of my labor? Would you likewise say that THEY feel guilty for taking free beer? NOW, if I were to request donations, I'd accept your premise. However I never have and have no intention to do so. I stand by my statement that MY chief enjoyment is knowing that others really enjoy what I'm making.
Of course when times are tight, I just don't brew -if I were selling, that would be the death knell of my 'business'.
To be honest, I'd prefer a helping hand on brew-day more than anything else. Or bottling day for when I bottle.

Wow...didn't think the response to this initial question would be that large. Perhaps it is more of a legal issue than a moral/ethical one. In addition to brewing I also do a lot of gardening and some woodworking where we also give away to our friends much of what we produce. If I have someone asking for a particular wood workng item that will cost significant money out of materials I have no problem accepting money for that.

The reason why I felt uncertain about accepting this donation is that there is ATF agency for gardening, wood working or knitting. Perhaps I should have asked if accepting this donation would violate any legal mandates in regards to home brewing.

elpenoso said:

Yea not sure why your posting this. Thats cool about giving out beers and such that made sense but as soon as you started weirding out about money it sounded like you were retarded. Just take it or dont. Personally I wont take any money from anyone because my beers are not for sale period. Its just too much work for very little money.

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I do not think my "weirding out" about the accepting the money issue possibly violating an ATF policy sounds like being "retarded". I may have not been clear with my my initial concern about whether or not these types of donations can be accepted w/o violating some law I may not know about can in anyway be labelled with such a term like this. Sorry to bring up such a PC issue but having a mentally challenged nephew had directly shown me that people with these challenges are born with them and do not choose to act in a certain way. Perhaps having Kobe Bryrant or Carlos Mencia do a 30 second public service annoucement to be aired on TV would clarify how this term is being missused.

Phunhog said:

A law,or lack of one, does not make something ethical or moral. Wow.....that's deep

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^
Nice line there!

I would accept some "equipment and ingredient cash donations" from my friends if they weren't so damn cheap. If I buy a keg for a party, people will chip in. The differnce here being it was purchased retail, etc etc, so it was taxed, etc. But I like Airborne's thinking with the whole "intent" thing.

Also, if anyone ever asks, the $200 was for knitting supplies.

My three thoughts.

1: They wrote the check. Either because of
A: They can afford it, and know what it takes to produce the beer you give them.
B: You whined about how much it costs for the beer you make and they feel guilty.
C: They think they're in your debt for all the beer you gave them, and want to repay 'somehow'
Only you know the actual case.

2: From their perspective. "Holy S! 8 CASES of hand-made craft beer for $200! WHOO HOOTERS!"

3: Cash it, and make a batch of beer in their honor, or name a batch for them (if you do that, make sure it's sneaky so other friends don't ask, "Why is this one's called Sam's brew? WTF did he do to deserve a beer named for him?") Or buy some equipment for the brewery and mention it next time they're over.


Personally, in the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't cash it. My friends can drink all the beer they want at my place, no charge, ever.

B

Also, if anyone ever asks, the $200 was for knitting supplies. [/QUOTE]

That would make my pregnant swmbo very happy. Good idea. I do agree upon reading many of these posts that this is more of a legal issue than an ethical one and since I never gave beer out with the intent of a moentary donation being returned that this could not be viewed as indirect selling of beer.