Pliny the Elder recipe questions

Just a note for anyone doing this recipe with leaf hops... Those things will soak up a whole bunch of your wort. I came in about a gallon short when I brewed this recipe. I can account for some of it with extra boil off, but not all of it. I use leaf hops with the biermuncher style hop-bag. I think next time I try a recipe that has this much hops, I'll probably presoak my hops so I don't lose as much tasty beer. Either that, or use pellet hops.

I'm using all pellets for this reason specifically. 12.5 or more ounces of whole leaf hops would result in a huge amount of hop-loss.

bdnoona said:

I'm brewing 10G of this on 8/30. I'm following the recipe Vinny put in the last Zymurgy though, which only uses 12.5 oz per 5 gallon batch. My total hop cost is: $48 for 10G, or $24 for 5G. You should start buying in bulk, especially if you're going to be making big IIPA's like this.

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yeah no kidding. I probably could have bought 3-4 lbs for what I paid. I doubt that I will make this again though, but I do like a big IIPA. I'll be buying in bulk soon.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

yeah no kidding. I probably could have bought 3-4 lbs for what I paid. I doubt that I will make this again though, but I do like a big IIPA. I'll be buying in bulk soon.

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I plan to have this as a regular on tap at my place, until (if ever) they distribute in IL. SOOOOO GOOOOD!!!

bdnoona said:

I plan to have this as a regular on tap at my place, until (if ever) they distribute in IL. SOOOOO GOOOOD!!!

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It is a great beer, I was fortunate enough to make it over to Russian River this last weekend. My Sister in Law got Married in Petaluma, So I was able to get up to Santa Rosa. I had a couple Blind Pigs while I was there and I think I might actually like it more than Pliney. Both are outstanding though. Then I had some of my Pliney Clone when I got home and realized that it's not even close.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

It is a great beer, I was fortunate enough to make it over to Russian River this last weekend. My Sister in Law got Married in Petaluma, So I was able to get up to Santa Rosa. I had a couple Blind Pigs while I was there and I think I might actually like it more than Pliney. Both are outstanding though. Then I had some of my Pliney Clone when I got home and realized that it's not even close.

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You followed a different recipe though, right? How did it compare to the one Vinny released in Zymurgy (2-row, w/ small amounts of crystal, carapils and corn sugar, columbus, centennial and simcoe)?

where do I get simcoe hops if all my LHBS dont carry them?

brewmasterswarehouse.com
austinhomebrew.com
nikobrew.com

Austin Homebrew just had their Pliny Kit on sale. Normally over 80 bucks but the sale took off $23. All grain, no extract. Sorry, but that was yesterday.

They (Russian River) don't really distribute it because a)they only make so much of it and can't keep up with demand and b)they recommend on the bottle to keep it cold. Kinda snobby about it too. If you are ever in the area, definitely try their other beers. It's worth the trip.

Woolseal said:

They (Russian River) don't really distribute it because a)they only make so much of it and can't keep up with demand and b)they recommend on the bottle to keep it cold. Kinda snobby about it too. If you are ever in the area, definitely try their other beers. It's worth the trip.

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I wouldn't say snobby; I would say persnickety. I wish more breweries were concerned with quality control of beers once they've left their brewery. I really hate seeing beers that have no business being warm, collecting dust in a sunlit front of a store.

cercueil said:

I don't mind using hops to bitter a beer but do any of you think that dry hopping is worth it? From what I've read it just adds aroma. While I agree that smelling a beer is great would I want to spend $10-$20 extra to dry hop the beer? Has anyone compared the same recipe of a regular IPA and one that was dry hopped. Just wondering if the extra expense is worth it?

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I kind of agree, it seems kind of silly to dry hop a beer that is going to take multiple months to age out anyways. At that point, it seems like you've wasted most of your dryhopping.

Maybe it would be a better idea to bulk age for a couple months, and then dry hop?

Synovia said:

I kind of agree, it seems kind of silly to dry hop a beer that is going to take multiple months to age out anyways. At that point, it seems like you've wasted most of your dryhopping.

Maybe it would be a better idea to bulk age for a couple months, and then dry hop?

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Why would you bulk age an IIPA? You're supposed to consume them fresh. It says so right on Pliny's label in particular.

What water profiles are people going for on this beer?

I got the AHS kit on Tuesday and am thinking something along the lines of what was mentioned in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/target-water-profile-pliny-elder-clone-128923/

like CA: 100, MG: 16, NA: 16, SO4: 350, CL: 50, HCO3: 50

bdnoona said:

Why would you bulk age an IIPA? You're supposed to consume them fresh. It says so right on Pliny's label in particular.

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Aren't most high alchohol/high FG beers supposed to be aged? How do all the yeast byproducts get cleaned up in something like that.

Synovia said:

Aren't most high alchohol/high FG beers supposed to be aged? How do all the yeast byproducts get cleaned up in something like that.

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It's hard to make it out from this picture but the label is full of phrases that basically lead to not letting the beer age because the hops need to stay fresh.

humann_brewing said:

It's hard to make it out from this picture but the label is full of phrases that basically lead to not letting the beer age because the hops need to stay fresh.

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Right, but thats most likely due to the dry hopping. My point was that maybe these sorts of beers should be bulk aged and THEN dry hopped.

Synovia said:

Right, but thats most likely due to the dry hopping. My point was that maybe these sorts of beers should be bulk aged and THEN dry hopped.

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I see what you mean, sorry didn't read carefully enough. That is a good thought. I think the theory is that there is so much hop explosion that it over powers any green beer taste you will get.

But it may be a good experiment.

Synovia said:

Right, but thats most likely due to the dry hopping. My point was that maybe these sorts of beers should be bulk aged and THEN dry hopped.

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Hop additions to the boil also mellow and lose "freshness" as they age. I've had aged IIPA's (off the store shelves) and they are no where near as hoppy as when it is first brewed. Even hop bitterness fades as they age. With 9 ounces of hops going into the kettle on this one, I'm not going to age it and let that hop wallop fade before dry hopping and drinking it.:rockin:

Also Pliny is not that big of a beer at only 8%. I'm drinking a Pisgah Vortex I (IIPA) clone right now that is 11.3%, and it's just under seven weeks since brewing. I don't taste off flavors or anything like that, and this hasn't been bulk aged for months (only weeks). I imagine for the Vortex, and likewise Pliny, the massive amount of hops hide a lot of the green-ness of the brew.

I am going to do this brew this weekend and I have a couple of questions.

I got Wyeat American Ale II as I thought that was what the recipe called for in Zymurgy. I see that people used White Labs California Common. Does it make a huge difference to use American Ale or should I go back to the LHBS after work and see if I can exchange it.

How big of a starter are people doing? I have a 1000ml flask and I have a 1/2 gallon growler. I also have a stir plate. I actually have 2 Wyeast American Ale pkgs but the mfr date of the one at the house is January 09. Should I use both in the starter or is it safe to use just the newer one?

TIA

Zman

Check out Mr. Malty's yeast pitching calculator if you haven't before. I would use one smack pack on the stir plate, if I were you. Does the growler work on the stir plate? I think it calls for 1300ml starter on a stir plate. http://www.mrmalty.com/

And if you are trying to get as close as possible to the recipe, I'd get the yeast it calls for. But either way, it's going to make an awesome beer.

Kegged my first batch of this tonight. The hydrometer sample was so good, I drank TWO of them. This is by far the best beer I've ever brewed. It is a hop bomb, but great balance. I can't wait to taste this when it is carb'd. My final numbers were:

OG: 1.072
FG: 1.008
ABV: 8.5%

I used Safale 05 yeast for this batch.

I'll be ordering more hops next week for my second batch of this... I plan to keep it as a regular.

I will be going with Danstar Nottingham Dry Yeast. Anyone brew the Pliny with this yeast?

bdnoona said:

You followed a different recipe though, right? How did it compare to the one Vinny released in Zymurgy (2-row, w/ small amounts of crystal, carapils and corn sugar, columbus, centennial and simcoe)?

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I used Dude's Pliney the Bastid recipe, that is in the Recipe section. The one thing I did different was I wound up using Chinook instead of Warrior, for Bittering. So that was probably enough to throw the whole thing off. I'll have to go check out the Zymurgy recipe.

anyone know tasty mcdoles recipe for pliny clone? And what is the final hop bill for pliny?

Tapped my first batch of Pliny tonight (with modifications noted in my first post), and must say it is very, very good. The best beer I've brewed by far. I was lucky enough to have a pint of the real thing on tap 2 days ago, and the flavor of my batch is very, very close to the original. About the only difference I note is the dry hop aroma isn't as strong in mine. It has nice hop aroma, but not the nose-bomb that the real thing had. I'll have to experiment with my next batch. This is going to be a regular in my kegerator I think.

@Brewmeister49, I'm not sure whether it is kosher to post the entire recipe here on this site. It was published in Zymurgy last month. Does anyone know if it is OK to repost recipe from Zymurgy?

paradoc said:

@Brewmeister49, I'm not sure whether it is kosher to post the entire recipe here on this site. It was published in Zymurgy last month. Does anyone know if it is OK to repost recipe from Zymurgy?

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Recipes are generally not copyright protected. Only the additional info or unique processes added might be covered. Just posting a list of ingredients is done all the time.

I just got this months Zymurgy and it looks like they made a mistake in the grain bill recipe to Pliny. I don't know the specifics off hand but it looks like they added about 2 more lbs of 2 row and the specialty grains went up slightly. I already bought my ingredients though

paradoc said:

Tapped my first batch of Pliny tonight (with modifications noted in my first post), and must say it is very, very good. The best beer I've brewed by far. I was lucky enough to have a pint of the real thing on tap 2 days ago, and the flavor of my batch is very, very close to the original. About the only difference I note is the dry hop aroma isn't as strong in mine. It has nice hop aroma, but not the nose-bomb that the real thing had. I'll have to experiment with my next batch. This is going to be a regular in my kegerator I think.

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I'm so glad to hear this. I'm doing a 10G on Sunday. If it's close to the original, it will be permanent fixture on my keezer as well. :rockin:

I wonder what the deal was with the nose, or lack there of. Were your hops old perhaps?

bdnoona said:

I wonder what the deal was with the nose, or lack there of. Were your hops old perhaps?

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My hops were fresh, but I used pellet instead of whole. There are a couple of possibilities I think may contribute:
1) I have an immersion chiller that doesn't work very well... it takes me about 30 minutes to cool a batch. So my flameout hops may be contributing more to flavor than aroma. I'm planning to get a plate-chiller soon
2) I suspect Vinny is using hop-back or other techniques in his commercial batches to help with hop aroma
3) Because I'm at high altitude, the boiling temps are significantly lower, and I'm told hop utilization is a bit (10-20%) lower. That should affect bittering more than aroma hops, but might contribute a bit.
4) The original recipe printed in Zymurgy was scaled for a 5 gallon batch by mistake. I scaled the grain for a larger batch, but I did NOT increase the hops. If someone has the tech talk email from AHA that corrected the recipe, if you can tell us if the hop-bill was also increased? For my next batch, I may go ahead and increase the hops too.

Had a dinner party last night... and this was by far the most popular beer I served. One friend stated it was the "best beer I've ever tasted"!

I'll go ahead and edit the original posting and add the hop bill to it when I get a chance.

Jim

I'm brewing this now. My extract version, based on that in Zymurgy, is using 9lbs LME plus another .5lb of DME i had kicking around. I decided to sacrifice a bag of priming sugar so the .5lb is up my 1.5oz or so. Also, i had one of the specialty malts mixed with another malt from an abandoned recipe, so i kept that in and added the .5lb of crystal on top of that. Hops are exactly as listed in the issue.

paradoc said:

Kegged my first batch of this tonight. The hydrometer sample was so good, I drank TWO of them. This is by far the best beer I've ever brewed. It is a hop bomb, but great balance. I can't wait to taste this when it is carb'd. My final numbers were:

OG: 1.072
FG: 1.008
ABV: 8.5%

I used Safale 05 yeast for this batch.

I'll be ordering more hops next week for my second batch of this... I plan to keep it as a regular.

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How quickly did you hit FG? I also used Safale 05. It is currently about nine days old and my current gravity is at 1.013 (OG was 1.068) and 7.2% abv. I assume it'll slip a few more points, but I doubt it'll get down to 1.008 which is what I need for the targeted 8% abv. Either way, it smells amazing already. I've never had so much hop aroma from a fermenter while this beast was bubbling. My basement smelled like a hop garden.

bdnoona said:

How quickly did you hit FG? I also used Safale 05. It is currently about nine days old and my current gravity is at 1.013 (OG was 1.068) and 7.2% abv. I assume it'll slip a few more points, but I doubt it'll get down to 1.008 which is what I need for the targeted 8% abv.

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I was at 1.016 at 5 days, when I did my first dry hop addition.
I didn't check gravity again until I kegged it after 25 days, it was 1.008

It is so good... I'm brewing my second batch tomorrow

paradoc said:

I was at 1.016 at 5 days, when I did my first dry hop addition.
I didn't check gravity again until I kegged it after 25 days, it was 1.008

It is so good... I'm brewing my second batch tomorrow

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Awesome. I plan on not checking again until it's kegged in two weeks. I had similar results on my Vortex I clone that dropped like this when using S-05, with the same mash temp as Pliny and also a corn sugar addition too. Thanks for the reply.

Brian

OK... here it is. The full recipe including the hops additions for Pliny the Elder. This is reposted from the original recipe provided by Vinnie Cilurzo in the July/August 2009 edition of Zymurgy. (You really should subscribe to Zymurgy... it is a good mag!)

NOTE: As several posters have noted, the original recipe in the magazine was scaled incorrectly. AHA confirmed the error in a tech talk email after the magazine was printed. They scaled it for a 5 gallon, instead of a 6 gallon batch. I'm posting the original recipe here, with my proposed modifications to the grain bill noted below. Others have proposed slightly different modifications to the grain bill. You can read the rest of the thread for their suggestions if you would like.

Ingredients:
****ORIGINAL GRAIN BILL (FOR 5 GALLON BATCH)****
11.0 lb Two-Row pale malt
0.5 lb Crystal 45 malt
0.5 lb Carapils malt
0.4 lb Dextrose (corn) sugar
****SEE BELOW FOR A PROPOSED MODIFIED GRAIN BILL****
3.50 oz Columbus* 13.9% AA 90 min
0.75 oz Columbus*13.9% AA 45 min
1.00 oz Simcoe 12.3% AA 30 min
1.00 oz Centennial 8.0% AA 0 min
2.50 oz Simcoe 12.3% AA 0 min
1.00 oz Columbus* 13.9% AA Dry hop 12-14 days
1.00 oz Centennial 9.1% AA Dry hop 12-14 days
1.00 oz Simcoe 12.3% AA Dry hop 12-14 days
0.25 oz Columubus* 13.9% AA Dry hop last 5 days
0.25 oz Centennial 9.1% AA Dry hop last 5 days
0.25 oz Simcoe 12.3% AA Dry hop last 5 days
*Can substitute Tomahawk/Zeus for Columbus

White labs WLP001 California Ale or Wyeast 1056 American Ale

OG 1.070
FG 1.011
IBU's a lot! (90-95 according to recipe)
ABV 8-8.5%
SRM 7

Directions: Mash at 151-152 for an hour. Mash out at 170F and sparge. Collect 8 gallons run off, stir in dextrose, and bring to boil. Ad hops as indicated. After boil, chill to 67F and transfer to fermenter. Pitch 2 packets yeast or yeast starter and aerate well. Ferment at 67F until fermentation subsides, then rach to secondary. Add first set of dry hops and age 7-9 days, then add second set of dry hops. Age 5 more days then bottle or keg.

****MY PROPOSED MODIFIED GRAIN BILL****
As noted above, the original recipe was misprinted for a 5 gallon, rather than a 6 gallon batch. I increased the grain bill by 33% to account for 1) my relatively low efficiency of 65-70% and 2) I started with an 8 gallon boil so that I would account for the extra hop losses for the huge hop bill. I've brewed two batches with the grain bill below and started the boil with 8 gallons each time, and ended up with 6.5 gallons into the fermenter, with an OG of exactly 1.072 each time.
15.0 lb Two-Row (I used Maris Otter)
0.66 lb Crystal 45 malt
0.66 lb Carapils malt
0.5 lb Dextrose (corn) sugar

Thanks to Vinnie for a great beer!

That hop bill is way different than what I did on mine. No Chinook and no Mash Hops, and quite a bit less dry hopping as well.

How does the recipe compare to the real deal?

Yankeehillbrewer said:

That hop bill is way different than what I did on mine. No Chinook and no Mash Hops, and quite a bit less dry hopping as well.

How does the recipe compare to the real deal?

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It should be spot on. It was the official recipe released by the actual brewer. There are also tasting notes somewhere a few pages back in this thread regarding his first batch.

bdnoona said:

It should be spot on. It was the official recipe released by the actual brewer. There are also tasting notes somewhere a few pages back in this thread regarding his first batch.

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That is the hopping schedule my brother and I used, (separate batches) and we both concur, it's really close. I just got done carbonating mine and now am letting in age for a little while. I think It will get better with a little time, but it is an awesome beer right now.

bdnoona said:

It should be spot on. It was the official recipe released by the actual brewer. There are also tasting notes somewhere a few pages back in this thread regarding his first batch.

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I ask because this recipe Pliny The Bastid claims to be straight from Vinnie as well.

Yankeehillbrewer said:

I ask because this recipe Pliny The Bastid claims to be straight from Vinnie as well.

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The recipe above came directly from Zymurgy, and according to Vinnie is the recipe for Pliny the Elder. I'm not sure, but suspect either the recipe has evolved over time, or the "Bastid" was a variation on the recipe (hence the name). I suspect most (or all) brewers modify their recipes from time to time to account for availability of ingredients. If you check out the Russian River website, you will see they post a bottle-log showing how various batches of their brews have changed over time.
Russian River Brewing Co. Bottle Log

Either way... I'm enjoying a glass now

Paradoc, et. all, thank you for all the info on brewing Pliny.... I can't wait to try this recipe as I really love pliny. Question : do you guys have a good source for bulk purchase of Simcoe and Columbus hops?
Hopsdirect doesn't seem to sell Simcoe ....though they do sell Columbus whole and pellet though not at the moment. I am a whole hops type-- but Simcoe only seems to only come in pellet form?

Regards

Beer nut