Its been 96 hours and nothing...now what

Hello all,

Like the title says it has been 96 hours since I pitched my yeast and there has been no fermentation yet. Here are the details on everything:

Northern Brewer Kolsch Kit and I decided to go with the dry yeast for my first brew.

"Fermentables
1 lbs. Pilsen Dry Malt Extract (boil for 60 min.)
6 lbs. Pilsen Malt Syrup (boil for 15 min.)

Boil Additions
1 oz. Tradition (60 min)
1 oz. Hallertau Select (30 min)

If you choose dry yeast
Safale US-05. Optimum temperature: 59-75° F."


I did a full boil and didn't run into any problems with the brewing process. I used the IWC that my dad and I built and it worked incredibly well. We cooled the wort down to around 65 degrees in 15-20 minutes. Which we thought was perfect according to our instructions that said 65-75. We pitched (without rehydrating) the yeast and carried it downstairs to our basement closet.

Now, days before I stared my first brew I confirmed that this closet would work with the suggested temperature range suggested with the kit(59-75). After watching the temperature stay at a very consistent 68.5 degrees, I thought it would be perfect for fermenting my kolsch.

I watched the fermentation very closely for the next couple of days and got very worried when I didn't see anything happening but I waited 72 hours like the sticky suggests and still didn't see anything. I decided to email Northern Brewer with an explanation of the situation and this is the reply that I got(at the time I haden't yet checked my gravity):

"The gravity reading will be the only sure way to know if fermentation is taking place; I would bet that it is. If for some reason it isn't, the usual culprit is a temperature that is too low for the yeast. In this case you would want to warm the carboy up so it's within the temp range of the yeast and give it a swirl to re-suspend the yeast. "

I thought that I was well within the range for the yeast according to the instructions......

Tonight I checked my gravity to confirm what has been going on. My OG was 1.053 and tonight when I checked it was again 1.053.

I guess at this point I'm looking for what I can do now. I know that swirling is an option but I just wanted to check with you guys on how vigorous of a swirl that I need to do, ie. what is the goal of the swirl?- Totally "re-stir" the yeast in throughout the wort or just kind of get some stuff off of the bottom.

I also know that re-pitching yeast is an option too, but I live in a small town with no LHBS and will have to order, so if that is my last option what yeast should I order to get this stuff going?


here are some pictures as well:





I tried to give all of the information that I can think of. Let me know if there is anything that you guys need from me to identify what is going on. I appreciate any help!!!!

looks like yeast on the bottom in that 2nd pic??
maybe try a swirl, and a little warmer??
double check your measuring equip, hydro/thermo

and next time, make a starter

with what you've stated, it's surprising that you haven't noticed any airlock activity...

did you aerate the wort well after pitching?

you can certainly try to re-suspend the yeast by shaking it, you can be fairly vigorous with it if nothing has happened yet.

honestly, if it were me, i would consider repitching some new yeast. i'd use another packet of s-05 or nottingham. it could be that you got some old/bad yeast, although not likely... it happens though.

mrfurlly said:

and next time, make a starter

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starters are great for liquid yeast, but the safale 05 should be fine without one. at least that has been my experience.

You are positive that no fermentation has taken place? In the second pick it looks like a bunch of yeast settled to the bottom.

Check you hydrometer in distilled water, to make sure it reading right.

FWIW, there is no reason to make a starter with dry yeast. You can rehydrate it, but many people just sprinkle it on top like you did.

I poured it into the carboy pretty vigorously. There was quite a lot of foam intially when I poured it in. In addition to that, I shook it about as much as I was willing to with it being one big heavy glass/precious beer combination. On my next brew I'm going to fabricate an airation device to hook up to a drill since I do full boils. Other than that....I really can't figure out why I haven't gotten any results. It frustrates me that its possible that I should have to put the carboy in a warmer pace, I was under the impression that a Kolsch was supposed to be fermented a little cooler and I was also well within the range according to the inventory for the kit.

there is no reason to make a starter with dry yeast

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if a starter was made he wouldnt have this problem right now. 90% of the time you probably fine, but if im puttin in 6hrs into a brew id like to be sure.
how long does it take to make a starter anyways, 15 min?? well worth it!

mrfurlly said:

if a starter was made he wouldnt have this problem right now. 90% of the time you probably fine, but if im puttin in 6hrs into a brew id like to be sure.
how long does it take to make a starter anyways, 15 min?? well worth it!

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In the future I will do a starter. For the first brew I decided it best to follow the directions that came with the kit, which explicitly said to not do a starter for the dry yeast.

mrfurlly said:

if a starter was made he wouldnt have this problem right now. 90% of the time you probably fine, but if im puttin in 6hrs into a brew id like to be sure.
how long does it take to make a starter anyways, 15 min?? well worth it!

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I think you are confusing rehydrating with making a starter.

There is NO need to make a starter with dry yeast. In fact, the manufacturers specify that you shouldn't. You should just pitch it directly to the wort or rehydrate and pitch.

yeah... really, you don't need a starter with safale-05, or any other good dry yeast. i definitely don't think this has much or anything to do with it. i'd get another packet of yeast and try to repitch it. temps MIGHT be a problem, and just because you did a kolsch beer, you didn't really use a kolsch yeast, but the temps you stated should be causing much of a problem.

double_e5 said:

You are positive that no fermentation has taken place? In the second pick it looks like a bunch of yeast settled to the bottom.

Check you hydrometer in distilled water, to make sure it reading right.

FWIW, there is no reason to make a starter with dry yeast. You can rehydrate it, but many people just sprinkle it on top like you did.

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I don't have any distilled water handy at the moment, I can go buy some tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that nothing has happened though, the hydrometer is reading almost the exact same as it did when I took my original reading. If it even read 1.043 I would say that something is happening but it hasn't changed one bit. What about the lack of krausen? Or does that have nothing to do with it? I took that second picture of the bottom of it because I thought that it was pretty peculiar. Is it possible that when I pitched the yeast that it all sunk to the bottom and is just doing its thing all down there?

I was just taking a stab in the dark with the hydrometer. I'm not trying to sound like and ass, but are you sure you are reading it right?

It looks to me like the yeast definetly went through the reproductive stage. There is way more yeast at the bottom than just from the packet.

If you are positive that nothing has happened, I would pitch another packet of yeast. If you post your location, maybe someone nearby can help you out instead of waiting for some to be delivered.

double_e5 said:

I was just taking a stab in the dark with the hydrometer. I'm not trying to sound like and ass, but are you sure you are reading it right?

It looks to me like the yeast definetly went through the reproductive stage. There is way more yeast at the bottom than just from the packet.

If you are positive that nothing has happened, I would pitch another packet of yeast. If you post your location, maybe someone nearby can help you out instead of waiting for some to be delivered.

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I believe that I am reading it correct. Even if I am reading it incorrectly, I am reading it the same as I read it right after I brewed and there is no change from that. Isn't that what I'm looking for? Some change, even if I am reading the numbers wrong there should be a change between the numbers that I am reading?

Also, in that second picture the trub looks all comprised of yeast but sitting here next to me it has a lot of green to it, ie. we may have gotten some of the bottom of the boil into the carboy, but not very much.

You may have just gotten a packet of yeast that got overheated in transit or something. Who knows if your package ended up sitting next to a heater for a few hours in a UPS warehouse.

ChshreCat said:

You may have just gotten a packet of yeast that got overheated in transit or something. Who knows if your package ended up sitting next to a heater for a few hours in a UPS warehouse.

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Well that's just not fair. I played fair, shouldn't UPS?

Haha, it is a possibility, and probably an explanation that would make more sense to me because it seemed liked once I pitched the yeast it just dropped to the bottom of the carboy and did nothing.


So my best bet is to order some yeast to re-pitch with and while I'm waiting for that I should try a little warmer temp and also do a good swirl?

neb_brewer said:

So my best bet is to order some yeast to re-pitch with and while I'm waiting for that I should try a little warmer temp and also do a good swirl?

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I'm on the fence with that.

One one hand, dry yeast is pretty hard to kill, at least compared to liquid. So I'd think there should be at least SOME of the yeast that was still viable and might just take a while to get started. So a little higher temp and a swirl might help it along.

On the other hand, if the whole packet of yeast was a dud, then a warmer temp will just encourage any bad bugs that might have gotten in there to grow and set up a beachhead before your new yeast comes.

One thing is for sure, this is why it's good to have an extra packet or two of dry yeast sitting in your fridge if you don't have a LHBS you can zip over to at the drop of a hat.

ChshreCat said:

One thing is for sure, this is why it's good to have an extra packet or two of dry yeast sitting in your fridge if you don't have a LHBS you can zip over to at the drop of a hat.

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Hint taken, what is a good yeast to have a couple on hand?

S-04, US-05 or Nottingham.

double_e5 said:

There is NO need to make a starter with dry yeast. In fact, the manufacturers specify that you shouldn't. You should just pitch it directly to the wort or rehydrate and pitch.

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I wouldn't say that there's never a need to make a starter with dry yeast. Dry yeast does have more yeast cells then liquid yeast, though, so you're less likely to need a starter. With a OG of 1.053....no, you don't really need a starter.

Of the many beers I've brewed, I'd agree that there's quite a bit of sediment down there for absolutely nothing to have occured. The couple of times I had a stuck fermentation, it was due to bad yeast viability and my wort stayed pretty much unchanged until I pitched new yeast. Swirling the beer and pitching some more yeast is probably best for now.

Since I've found that yeast cell count and aeration are the keys to good ferments, I'm also going to add that you should always aerate the wort well before pitching the yeast. Since there's already some sediment here (so I'm thinking there's also some fermentation that's occured) getting some more yeast cells in is the only thing you can do now. Airlock activity is always misleading....always make sure you're reading the hydrometer at the calibrated temp (normally 60 degrees).

davesrose said:

I wouldn't say that there's never a need to make a starter with dry yeast. Dry yeast does have more yeast cells then liquid yeast, though, so you're less likely to need a starter. With a OG of 1.053....no, you don't really need a starter.

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Just pitch more than one packet.

double_e5 said:

S-04, US-05 or Nottingham.

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+3 on those. Best, most versatile dry yeasts on the market.

Ok I'll order some more yeast to re-pitch with. I'm going to order another carboy and ingredient kit to get my pipeline started anyway.

What about my lack of krausen? Shouldn't there be at least a little?

Also, should I move the carboy to a warmer location, even though it is already in the middle of the suggested temp range?

neb:

If you have nothing after 96 hours, I'd definitely repitch. As previously stated by others, Nottingham and Safale US-05 are great choices for dry yeast. In fact, I keep several packs of each in m brewing fridge, just for rescues. If you're going to order, might as well get a few extra packs.

Are you confident in the closet temperature? Do you have a thermometer in or on the carboy? Unless you somehow got a bad batch of yeast, I'd guess low temperatures to be your culprit. Rehydrating and repoitching with good dry yeast sounds like a reasonable next step.

By the way, congratulations. Having patience and taking an analytical approach to fixing your problems are habits that will pay off well in your brewing endeavors.

And, just to reinforce, there is no reason to prepare a starter with a quality dry yeast. In fact, it may be detrimental. Rehydrate (or not), pitch, and Bob's your uncle.

As far as the temperature of the closet, I have a very accurate digital thermometer that I had stuck between the floor and the carboy in hopes of it telling me what the temp of fermemtation was. I will probably order some stick on thermometers for the carboys too.

Last night before I went to bed I gave it a really good swirl and also put it into a room that was slightly warmer. I'll check the gravity again later tonight to see if anything has changed.

I appreciate all of the feedback everybody!!

I've got an update on the Kolsch:

Friday night before I went to bed I gave the whole carboy a good swirl and re-suspended the yeast. In addition I also moved it into the main room of the basement which is 1-2 degrees warmer than the closet that I had it in originally. Saturday night (last night), I checked the gravity again and STILL no change from my OG, apparently my swirl had no effect. So I devised a new plan:

Go around the entire house putting my digital thermometer in different areas to find a room that would be around 70-73 degrees. After that I was going to move the carboy to that room and not swirl it. My theory was that I wanted it to warm up to the temperature overnight and then I would swirl it one more time this morning. If this still didn't do anything I had ordered some yeast to repitch with and would do that when it came in.

My mom's exercise room on our second floor was about the right temperature and at about 10:00 last night I took the carboy up there to warm up before swirling this a.m. Now, this is about 123 hours after I originally pitched my yeast Monday night (the 11th) in which time, as we know, absolutely nothing has happened.

This morning I slowly and unenthusiastically walked up the stairs to try another swirl, without much hope of that doing much. I open the door, turn the corner, and see this:







Finally!! I am a little disappointed that I didn't just swirl last night when I took it upstairs. Would I be getting better results if I did swirl it or does it not really matter?

So now the beer is in a room that is close to the top of the suggested range for the yeast (73 degree room and suggested max temp is 75). I am now wondering how much different elevations effect the fermentation process. I'm at a fairly high elevation relative to sea level. Do you guys think that maybe my higher altitude is the reason that I needed to put the beer at such a high temp within the range? I probably don't need to pitch that new yeast that I ordered right?

Regardless, I am elated. I was feeling pretty discouraged at the 4 day mark with nothing happening.

Elevation effects boiling temperatures, so, if anything, I'd consider the effect it would have on your boiling wort and the times you boil for. The biological processes the yeast perform occur at certain temperatures, regardless of pressure. So for the case of fermentation, I don't think the higher altitude would have any effect, if the yeast strain is meant to go at 73F, and you have it at 73F...everything is good. The only other thing a higher altitude would effect, would be oxygen...but that's irrelevant for the most part in this case.

Sorry, the scientist in me gets the best of me at times

that's great news man. glad to hear it finally got going... i'll be curious to see how well it ferments out. keep us posted.

Quite odd for S-05 to take so long to start, but it looks healthy now. Possibly, the yeast packet was damaged or over-heated and it took this long for the population to build up. Even a pin-hole in the packet can let in enough moisture to damage the yeast. Normally, a dry yeast will form a krausen in 12-48 hours.

For future reference, I'd always rehydrate your dry yeast for good measure. I've found pitching rehydrated dry yeast over non-rehydrated tends to give me less lag time, and an overall quicker fermentation. Or that could just be all in my head >.<

arover said:

For future reference, I'd always rehydrate your dry yeast for good measure. I've found pitching rehydrated dry yeast over non-rehydrated tends to give me less lag time, and an overall quicker fermentation. Or that could just be all in my head >.<

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I definitely intend to from now on. I already ordered my next kit and it is the Summertime Lemon Ale from Annapolis, so I'm reading up on starters for liquid yeast. But if I go back to a dry yeast again I will certianly rehydrate.

I can't believe how actively this Kolsch is fermenting now, 120+ hours after pitching. Its crazy.

I really appreciate all of the feedback and support that I got. Now I get to play the waiting game and plan to leave it in the primary for 3 weeks from today and then bottle condition for at least another 3 weeks.

Also when doing your own recipes in the future and doing less kits, I'd look into adjusting your hops usage for the higher altitude. If you're really that much higher than sea level, you will have less hops utilization when boiling for a given amount of time (being your boiling point will be lower). Just another meticulous detail to pay attention to in your brewing endeavors ;-)

neb_brewer said:

. . . I am now wondering how much different elevations effect the fermentation process. I'm at a fairly high elevation relative to sea level. Do you guys think that maybe my higher altitude is the reason that I needed to put the beer at such a high temp within the range? I probably don't need to pitch that new yeast that I ordered right?

Regardless, I am elated. I was feeling pretty discouraged at the 4 day mark with nothing happening.

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This is interesting as it usually takes an additional day at least for my brews to start fermenting, (I always thought it was due to cellar temp being low, 40-68F) never heard of it though, what altitude are you at?

Right now I'm at around 3900 feet, but when school starts up again I will be brewing in Laramie, WY at around 7200 feet.

That is good advice about adjusting the hops because of elevation. I will make a note of that!