Barrel Aged Sour Beer

Allright, so let me just start by saying a couple of things. If it weren't for Russian River Brewing Company, I would never ever ever think of making this beer. I have a friend that took me there about three years ago and I had Deification which was (I would think) a kind of lead up to Consecration because it was a barrel aged sour on Plucots. So I have to thank my friend as well for introducing me.

Then with the terrible thread that nobody should read about some guys across the country that decided to clone Consecration. They actually put it into my head to go forward with making an insane quantity of beer. I am not even going to link the thread mentioned because it is far too long and full of BS that if you read it, it will officially dumb you down. You will then become like them and start talking about which farm animals you really want to take out on a friday night. Alright, here is the thread.

So this is still in the design stage, so go with me here.

I sat down yesterday with a good friend that makes some sweet beers. He tasted me on a couple of barrel aged beers he has going and also on a sour that just bottled. It was fantastic! 6% abv, summery, refreshing, sour, complex and beautiful. We chatted about style, barrels to use, different bugs, recipes and technique. We haven't decided on a recipe yet, but will have one in the next week hopefully or so.

You thread jacked me, so I'll thread jack you! Any way, I too just started a sour (flanders red) about 4 weeks ago, and Pitched the WL-Sour ale blend about 3 weeks ago after I split the 10 gallons in to two secondary fermenters.

I'm souring mine in a Corny keg with a missing In valve, and just have a tube with some foil over it, to get air flow and help the bugs work. I tried pitching some Oak chips in with the beer, but was told from the guys at the LHBS that I should have leached out the Oak chips before pitching them, or they will over power the beer aging for over a year with Oak flavors.

The good thing is I can smell the souring already, but I cant really taste it. So now the trick is to get the oak chips out...or I might just leave them in and blend the beer with come young beer next year.

I'd like to hear how the barrel aging goes, how much do you plan on brewing?

Meh, just rack off the chips. The added oxygen it would seem to me would just make the bugs grow. Watch out for acetobacter though because remember, you are making spoiled beer, not spoiled vinegar.

I have a corny of high gravity that I am going to add Brett to tomorrow and it will ferment in a corny. Since I have two cornies I am going to brett them both and try to get the gravity down to around 1.008 or less.

Good luck and post away. You can't Jack This!

Bsquared said:

I'm souring mine in a Corny keg with a missing In valve, and just have a tube with some foil over it, to get air flow and help the bugs work. I tried pitching some Oak chips in with the beer, but was told from the guys at the LHBS that I should have leached out the Oak chips before pitching them, or they will over power the beer aging for over a year with Oak flavors.

The good thing is I can smell the souring already, but I cant really taste it. So now the trick is to get the oak chips out...or I might just leave them in and blend the beer with come young beer next year.

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I wouldn't worry about taking your oak out, unless you put in more than an oz or two. You'll get to a point where the oak will hit its peak and then start fading away (at least in my experience). Over a year I think you'll be fine.

Plus the brett will eat up the cellulose and other stuff in there. When your brew is done you might not even have any recognizable oak chips in there

Thanks, I'll most likely leave them in, than risk adding any more bugs to the mix. The 5 gallons I split, is carbonating now and tastes real good, I can't wait till the sour is done though.

Well I have been emailing back and forth with Wyeast about the bugs and the Brett and it seems to me that Brett can basically be considered a slow beer yeast (ie, takes longer but accomplishes the same thing) so a starter for Brett is made and fermented the same as for say WLP001. The bugs are slightly different as they like warmer temperatures and need a little bit smaller starter. So I am going to make up a 1L starter for the Brett I just picked up and will pitch that into my 10 gallons of high gravity beer to get it from 1.025 down to around 1.008 or less. I am ordering the bugs and they should be in by next week, so I will start them in a starter in the next three weeks or so, ready to pitch into 60 Gallons in August.

I know this is just a boring update, no real progress or recipe or pictures, but I will come through, I promise.

Are you planing on adding any Lactobacillus and Pediococcus? or just Brett.

Wow a starter for 60 Gallons will be quite a feat, I guess it will be a 6 gallon batch with out an air lock?

Bsquared said:

Are you planing on adding any Lactobacillus and Pediococcus? or just Brett.

Wow a starter for 60 Gallons will be quite a feat, I guess it will be a 6 gallon batch with out an air lock?

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Lacto and Pedio are needed for the souring for sure. I am using both. For a 60 gallon batch, the starter is 5L for the bugs and about 10L for the brett.

I was thinking about this the other day, are you going to keep a 5 gallon keg separate from the barrel, so you can re-fill the "Angels Share"of beer you will loose to evaporation.
I was doing a little research in to the topic and read that you have to consider replacing the beer lost to evaporation over the course of the year it will age, I don't know what temp this beer will be at, by i though I saw that at 70ºF you will lose about two pints a month, and more at higher temps.

You are correct. I will make up around 70 gallons and have set aside some beer to top with. The key though that I have heard is that you want to top up in the first month or two, but not as much after because of the pellicle disruption. I could be off on this, but it is what I have heard and so that is what I am thinking I will attempt to do.

Second is that I was just reading a BYO article on Lacto and found that it is anerobic and that the oxygen will make other bad bacteria grow on it. Now if you are fermenting with brett, it should be keeping a little C02 blanket on the beer, but if not then you have a possible problem. Also, I read that Pedio creates C02 and Alcohol (Lacto only creates Lactic Acid) and so you might be safe there as well.

In all, I am new to it all, so I am just going off speculation. It is interesting though finding out all of these new things.

Matt Up North said:

You are correct. I will make up around 70 gallons and have set aside some beer to top with. The key though that I have heard is that you want to top up in the first month or two, but not as much after because of the pellicle disruption. I could be off on this, but it is what I have heard and so that is what I am thinking I will attempt to do.

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I kind of remember from Wild Brews that most funky barrels are not topped up for this reason

Yeah, the only thing that leads me to say that I should top up in the first bit is I was talking with a brewer that does a lot of barrel aging and this is what he said. I am going with what he says to ere on the side of experience.

Matt Up North said:

Then with the terrible thread that nobody should read about some guys across the country that decided to clone Consecration. They actually put it into my head to go forward with making an insane quantity of beer. I am not even going to link the thread mentioned because it is far too long and full of BS that if you read it, it will officially dumb you down. You will then become like them and start talking about which farm animals you really want to take out on a friday night. Alright, here is the thread.

:

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Uh, EXCUSE me?!?!?!?!?!

I REALLY resent your inuendo's and smarty pants comments. If we're so full of BS and 'dumbed down' what does that make you? You are copying us! And furthermore, there was NEVER any debate about which farm animal we were going to take out on Friday. Everyone knows that goats are easy, especially Bablu's. She's a little tramp. The addition of a little goat funk to the brew can only add a certain je ne sais quoi. Like we'd be so low brow that we'd even consider dating a chicken! Please!

PTN

Comon! A little chicken poontang never hurt anyone. I will admit though that you guys put it into my mind to do this. I am actually working one thing at a time, but also getting ready to put this together. I am trying to brew this with someone else, but I don't think it is going to work out. I think that I am going to have to do this by myself. This means that it's going to have to happen in the next three to four weeks, otherwise I am going to have no time the next three months. Should be interesting if I put it together. Might end up being more than one beer. I don't know.

Look, I'm not putting down chicken. In the new and improved United States of Obamica tolerence is the watchword. If you love the chicken and the chicken loves you I say go for it. Don't go pulling a ProfessorGate on me just cause I'm a goat man. But remember, no-one has ever said they had a chicken-funk beer and liked it.

PTN

If only we could milk chickens, then we could put them on the same line as goats with funky stuff. Course, goats can't lay eggs...

I am making up my 5335 starter for a berliner weisse that might well turn into a yeast/bacteria pitch into a barrel along with a pitch of Pedio and Brett starters. 2L of Lacto starter will be going into 15gal of no boil berliner Weisse on Tuesday I think. That or monday, though both are really busy. Might have to do them really early in the morning.

Ya, by the time eggs get that goatcheese funk to them I'm thinking of becoming a vegan.

What's your recipie for the Beliner?

65% Two Row
35% Wheat (both unmalted and malted, traditional apparently is unmalted, but come on)

Get the gravity to 1.032-1.038 and ferment with yeast and lacto simultaneously. Wait one month and call it a beer. I will bottle condition five gallons at least, though it is going to cost me a bit of money for the freaking bottles.

I was asking more about the fermentation part. Do you throw grain in and let 'er rip? Process details please.

You realize I am not at work. I am in the comfort of my own house and have been enjoying most of the beer that I drank tonight.

NOT THE DUCHESSE. (See that other thread for my rant)

So Berliner Weisse that I am doing, very non traditional. I do it this way because I don't want to have to boil the pilsner and I really like the flavor of American two row.

15lbs American Two Row
5lbs Wheat Malt
2lbs Unmalted Wheat

1oz Cascade for 15min (though I might FWH this so that it gets closer to 45min in the wort.

Mash at 151ish for 45min and then sparge. Get 15gallons out of it, bring to a boil and chill. Pitch the Lacto at 100* and leave overnight. Then pitch the yeast the next morning, ferment for two to three days at 65* and then to 70* for a week. Keg and bottle.

That is the plan, though I might well mix it up. This is my first real BW, so I am sure I will need to work a couple of things out.

How would I know where you are? For all I know you are out, cruising the streets of Santa Rosa on your Vespa, whistling at chickens on the side of the road.

Look, it's ok that you don't like the Duchess. More for me.


Are you using a lacto culture or are you throwing in a pound of grain and kicking it old school?

PTN

Lacto culture that is currently being started in a cooler with warm water. It will be a great test out beer so that when I make the barrel beer, I will know what to do with the starter and how to begin the souring.

I think, and this is just talk, that I will go this way with the barrel

1. Pitch Lacto Culture Day One
2. Pitch Yeast Culture Day Two
3. Pitch Pedio Culture Day Three
4. Pitch Brett Day Three

I think that by doing this I will be able to get enough Lactic acid that the Pedio can start doing its thing. The yeast will hopefully get a good head start over the brett to really dominate the flavor profile (also the brett will take a little longer to get going) and then once the yeast stalls out the brett and pedio can continue eating and also creating alcohol.

Who knows if it will work though.

Matt Up North said:

Lacto culture that is currently being started in a cooler with warm water. It will be a great test out beer so that when I make the barrel beer, I will know what to do with the starter and how to begin the souring.

I think, and this is just talk, that I will go this way with the barrel

1. Pitch Lacto Culture Day One
2. Pitch Yeast Culture Day Two
3. Pitch Pedio Culture Day Three
4. Pitch Brett Day Three

I think that by doing this I will be able to get enough Lactic acid that the Pedio can start doing its thing. The yeast will hopefully get a good head start over the brett to really dominate the flavor profile (also the brett will take a little longer to get going) and then once the yeast stalls out the brett and pedio can continue eating and also creating alcohol.

Who knows if it will work though.

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I don't remember where I read this, but I seem to recall that the best schedule for this kind of pitching was on the order of weeks and not days. With how slow some of these things grow I think you would get the same result just pitching at the same time.

What did you use in your lacto starter? All wort/DME? or did you use some othr sugar source?

I used DME to 1.020 and will let it go five days at 90* in a 2L starter. I agree that if I were just pitching the slurry that it would be a matter of weeks. I don't want to do that though and will be making starters for all of the cultures. I think that if I pitch the right amount of starter it is like pitching them all at the same time. I just want to make sure that each thing takes off at the time I want it to rather than when it wants to.

Also, if I am doing up 60gallons, we will be looking at a much warmer possible ferment temp. The yeast will probably take a couple of days to get going if I pitch at 68*. I kind of would like to have the beer be about 80-90* when I pitch the lacto and then have it cool at night to the pitching temp of the yeast. Then wait another day or two, depending and pitch the brett. The pedio culture I might start when I brew the beer and then pitch that after five days or close to the finish of fermentation.

The yeast and brett can go in at the same time because the brett is going to take a little time to get going. I really don't want the brett to ferment the beer primarily, so that is why I stagger the yeast and brett pitch. The Pedio I have heard needs the lacto to do its job in order to work and so I don't need to put the two in at the same time really. And the lacto dies off at a certain alc, which means that the pedio will come in then. Hence I pitch the Lacto first.

Well, I just made some healthy inroads (right word?) into this and it looks like I might well be brewing this in the next two weeks. I think I will do up a 55 gallon barrel to mash in along with about 125lbs of grain (or so). Then I will boil in two 40gal pots to the gravity I am looking for and finish off about 70 gallons of wort that will ferment in kegs for the primary and then go into the barrel along with the bugs. The more I work with various bugs, like in my AG Berliner Weisse thread, I find that they will do what they do whether I help them or not. In other words, I think that I might well do everything to this beer that you aren't supposed to and will still end up with something that will drink well. Maybe I am just optimistic, maybe I am correct. I really think that much of the world acheives things outside of lab/cellar settings and that sure, good settings are needed though they aren't always necesarry. Meh, I need a drink.

I got no idea what you just said but it sounds like you a happy boy so I'm glad for you. I ended uip with an extra day of vaca so I spent it productivley, brewing beer for a pals wedding. And now I'm more than a little druck.

Hmmm What to do, stay awake down stairs and wait for the yeast to do it's thing and go to bed knowng the beer is going to be fine OR ignore the stupid beer and go upstairs and and wake up Mrsthenurse and show her 35 seconds of a great time?

Damn I hate tough choices!

35 seconds? That's awfully ambitious. I started talking with a fellow that is going to let me use his brew stuff for this and I am totally psyched because I might be able to utilize some cool tools. What did you do when you made up your little wine fermenter mash pot? I need to know what to do with the the pvc in order to make the mashtun.

Stop distracting me... I still got 28 seconds of Whhoooo Hoooo left.


Somewhere....

about right. at this hour though I am surprised that you old folk are still awake on the east coast.

So has this happened yet?

Matt Up North said:

35 seconds? That's awfully ambitious. I started talking with a fellow that is going to let me use his brew stuff for this and I am totally psyched because I might be able to utilize some cool tools. What did you do when you made up your little wine fermenter mash pot? I need to know what to do with the the pvc in order to make the mashtun.

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I bought a leanth of 1 inch pvc pipe, a couple of elbows, a few t's and end caps. Cut everything up and put it together so it looks like a plastic candelabra. Drill a gazillion small holes on the bottom of the side of the pipes.

PTN

Good info, I might be into doing that or utilizing another friends large cooler that he has set up to mash in. I think that I might have just found my base beer for this recipe. It is my Dubble Trouble that just finished fermenting and is now about to go to the clarification stage. It is a medium gravity, medium colored, highly interesting beer that should be finish high enough that the bugs and brett can gnaw at it for a while. If I decide to do this beer it will be in the next couple of days. Maybe Tuesday or Wednesday.

I thought you had harvest this week? When are you going to get time to brew between harvesting, crushing and punchdowns?

PTN

You make the time...you make the time. It is going to be an absolute hell week this week if I do decide to make the beer. But, if I don't do it then it won't get done till like December and by then I won't get the nice warm temps to ferment at. I will have to do it up at night, so start around 5pm or so and finish when I can, hopefully about 10pm or so. Then up again for the wine.

I have a tentative recipe here, though it is maybe a touch darker than the original is according to the calculator.

155 lbs Pilsner Malt
3.5lbs CaraVienne
3.5lbs Aromatic
7lbs Special B
10.5lbs Acid Malt
12 lbs Sugar

3oz Cascade FWH
21oz Cascade 60min

Pitching with Lambic Blend, High gravity Trappist and possibly one other yeast. Should be interesting. Still working out if I have enough of the High Gravity Trappist or not. Might just have to do up the Lambic only as I have almost three liters of slurry that I will make a starter out of the day or so before. I am going back and forth with the Trappist yeast only because i want to use it for another beer, so I don't just want to "waste" it all on this since I won't be able to recover the same thing on the other end, if you know what I mean.

Well I did not get a chance to brew this up as harvest did in fact begin. It is still going strong which is infuriating on my no days off schedule. I did however get a chance three days ago to make up a test batch of this at ten gallons. I am smelling the airlock and it is very very nice. If all goes to plan, which it doesn't normally, I will get to brewing this in the next couple of weeks when harvest is over.