Starter calculation

I'm seriously debating doing a starter for my first batch using liquid yeast and I'm confused over the information I'm seeing.

Palmer's book references a pint (470 ml) of water and 1/2 cup of DME to hit a 1.040 target. My recipe calls for an OG of 1.051. Using Mr Malty I think it says I need to look at hitting 1.5 liters of starter (seems like a lot) but doesn't mention DME. It seems like the two differ greatly in their estimates (or more likely I have no clue what I'm doing with the Mr Malty calculator). Is there a source for beginner (easy) calculations on starters?

Also, this may be stupid but when going for a 5 gallon batch, does that mean 5g plus the starter on top, or 5g after adding the starter. If I'm supposed to pitch 1.5 liters into the carboy it sounds like a hefty addition.

I'm really struggling over keeping things simple (no starter) and avoiding mistakes (not testing yeast first via starter).

don't figure your starter amount into your final volume.

you just need to scale up your starter: There are roughly 2 pints in a liter, so for 1.5L you'll need 3 pints plus 1.5cups of DME.

If you don't want to add that 1.5L of starter to your beer, making the starter a couple of days ahead. The night before you brew, refrigerate your starter-the yeast will settle out. You can then pour off the extra liquid, swirl to resuspend the yeast and pitch that.

Palmer's example is just a nice guideline for some smaller beers. Mr Malty (who is Jamil and has written a few books with Palmer) is more of an err on the side of caution, especially for bigger brews calculator.

If you only have a 1L flask your OG 1050 will probably be just fine with a 1L/1cup starter.

www.mrmaly.com use the pitching calculator and you will be good to go. Change some options to what equipment you have and viola you are good to go. It made me build a stir-plate because I like the fact that I don't have to make huge starters for almost any gravity brew

Let me ask this a different way. Is 1.051 OG considered a bigger brew?

I'm not familiar with the numbers so the part that confuses me is that Palmer assumes a 1.040 OG and that seems close to 1.051. If those are similar, I don't expect a 3x different (from roughly .5 liter to 1.5 liter) difference in the water amount when using Mr Malty.

I'm thinking that I should split the difference as VTBrewer suggests and go for 1L/1cup using a 64oz growler I have sitting around along with loosely wrapped sanitized aluminum foil.

One last question - if I plan to put my carboy in a cooler of water to keep temps down while fermenting, should the starter sit in the same water? I think I've read the starter should be adjusted to the ferment temperature so as to be most efficient.

pretzelb said:

Let me ask this a different way. Is 1.051 OG considered a bigger brew?

Click to expand...

Its not over-the-top huge, but its just in that range where doing starters become a good practice. As VTbrewer said, Mr. Malty is probably erring on the side of caution.

pretzelb said:

I'm not familiar with the numbers so the part that confuses me is that Palmer assumes a 1.040 OG and that seems close to 1.051. If those are similar, I don't expect a 3x different (from roughly .5 liter to 1.5 liter) difference in the water amount when using Mr Malty.

Click to expand...

The numbers are really related to one another. Starters are simple things: All you are doing with the starter is increasing the number of healthy yeast that will ultimately go into your wort. Also, you are waking them up from the dormant state they are in in the smack pack/vial/etc. For this you can keep it simple and make a starter in the 1.040 range and you are good.

The 1.5L volume comes from the number of yeast cells you need to ferment that 5 gallons of wort at 1.051. Change those numbers and you get a different starter size. The Mr. Malty calculator also tells you the number of healthy yeast (somewhere in the hundreds of billions of yeast cells needed!) you'll need to pitch and then give you the starter size to give you that number of yeast.

pretzelb said:

I'm thinking that I should split the difference as VTBrewer suggests and go for 1L/1cup using a 64oz growler I have sitting around along with loosely wrapped sanitized aluminum foil.

One last question - if I plan to put my carboy in a cooler of water to keep temps down while fermenting, should the starter sit in the same water? I think I've read the starter should be adjusted to the ferment temperature so as to be most efficient.

Click to expand...

Probably not.... regulating fermentation temperature is important to restrain the formation of hot/fusel alcohols and is important in your beer but not so much your starter. Since you won't be drinking the starter, you don't have to worry about fermentation temperature UNLESS you plan to dump the whole starter into the beer. Even then, only Larger starter volumes could have enough of those hot alcohols to taint your beer.

broadbill said:

Probably not.... regulating fermentation temperature is important to restrain the formation of hot/fusel alcohols and is important in your beer but not so much your starter. Since you won't be drinking the starter, you don't have to worry about fermentation temperature UNLESS you plan to dump the whole starter into the beer. Even then, only Larger starter volumes could have enough of those hot alcohols to taint your beer.

Click to expand...

Are you not supposed to dump the entire starter into the fermenter?

pretzelb said:

Are you not supposed to dump the entire starter into the fermenter?

Click to expand...

You certainly can; but when you are making a large starter (to ferment a high gravity beer for example) some people worry about adding that much extra liquid to their beer. Starter worts aren't typically hopped and their temperature isn't rigorously maintained during fermentation, so you might be adding some unwanted flavor components if the volume is large enough.

Again, by starting your starter a couple days ahead of brew day, you can let your starter ferment out then pop it into the fridge overnight (or longer). The yeast will settle out and you can pour off the majority of the liquid (which is basically beer, mind you) and resuspend the yeast in a smaller volume of liquid to avoid adding the whole starter to your beer.

broadbill said:

You certainly can; but when you are making a large starter (to ferment a high gravity beer for example) some people worry about adding that much extra liquid to their beer. Starter worts aren't typically hopped and their temperature isn't rigorously maintained during fermentation, so you might be adding some unwanted flavor components if the volume is large enough.

Again, by starting your starter a couple days ahead of brew day, you can let your starter ferment out then pop it into the fridge overnight (or longer). The yeast will settle out and you can pour off the majority of the liquid (which is basically beer, mind you) and resuspend the yeast in a smaller volume of liquid to avoid adding the whole starter to your beer.

Click to expand...

Adding a large amount of extra liquid (which would happen with a 1.5 L starter) is why I started to question this. Looking back at Palmer's book he kind of mentions near the end you can refrigerate and pour off prior to pitching but it's not really clear when or if you should do that. As a beginner it's much nicer when the procedures are direct and to the point.

I might be back to just dumping the vial into the fermenter.

pretzelb said:

Adding a large amount of extra liquid (which would happen with a 1.5 L starter) is why I started to question this. Looking back at Palmer's book he kind of mentions near the end you can refrigerate and pour off prior to pitching but it's not really clear when or if you should do that. As a beginner it's much nicer when the procedures are direct and to the point.

I might be back to just dumping the vial into the fermenter.

Click to expand...

I think you are fretting a bit too much about this...it can be easy to do in this obsession, er....hobby! Starters aren't that hard to do, once you get down to making one.

If you have a few days before you brew, I would suggest always making the starter early than throwing it into the fridge before brew day. Why? Couple of reasons:

1. By doing the starter (and see it take off) you KNOW that your yeast is good. At this point, you still have time to go get more yeast if necessary.

2. You don't have to worry about dealing with a starter the night before brew day....you can use this time to set up the rest of your equipment or review your recipe. Your starter will be fine for a good long time sitting in the fridge.

3. Then there is the whole not having to pitch all that liquid from the starter that we already discussed.


Don't have the time? Make the starter the day before and pitch it when its ready to go.

One last thing: making a starter WILL give you better beer. Although your 1.051 beer isn't huge, you will definitely be under-pitching if you just dump the vial in. The fermentation will eventually take off, but it will take longer and won't be as active had you made a starter. Anything bigger than 1.051 you will DEFINITELY want to make a starter.

Hope this helps...good luck!

A large starter that could change the profile of the beer would be a gallon of 1.040 unhopped starter into an OG 1080 Imperial IPA.

1L (or 1.5) of 1040 into your 1051 is going to be just fine. If you want to pour off, just let it sit out for 72 hours then fridge for 24. But I never do, and I make some bigger beers with 2L 1040 starters.

broadbill said:

I think you are fretting a bit too much about this...it can be easy to do in this obsession, er....hobby! Starters aren't that hard to do, once you get down to making one.

Click to expand...

There is no question that I'm over fretting this!! But I do hate to make mistakes on stuff I make.

I think I'm coming off the ledge a bit. What I'm coming away with now is:

1. The basic idea of a starter is "more" yeast than what's in the vial is better
2. If you can get more than just the vial you're improving your end product

I think the only key for me is to get the ratio of DME and water correct. I can use Palmer's figures or just double them. Either way, if I end up with more than the vial I'm better off.

I bet just pitching the vial would be fine too (otherwise the store wouldn't tell me to do that). But by taking a few days to make the starter I should be able to make sure the vial is good and also improve the end product.

Still not sure if I will use the fridge to skim off some extra liquid or just pitch after it settles. I do have some extra light or pale malt extract so if I use that it shouldn't alter the taste much, and that would save me a few days too. Then again, being impatient isn't good for stuff like this.

You'll have a great brew, no matter what you do. It's hard to screw up with the acumen you seem to have. In 6 months...when you have 12 more brews under your belt you'll be chiming in on threads like this. Just do it.