Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

So I haven't made it all the way through all 168-pages of this thread yet (I'm on page 43), but I did do a thread search and couldn't find an answer to my question, so I will ask it here.

I just finished-up a Kolsch that I based off of BierMuncher's Orange Kolsch. My recipe is here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/2n...ab-my-take-biermunchers-orange-kolsch-325430/
I'd love to hear feedback on my take of BM's original recipe. I used the Wyeast Kolsch II #2575 for that recipe, and still have the yeast cake sitting in the Better Bottle from a couple of days ago. I plan to wash it today or tomorrow. Has anyone used a Kolsch yeast for Graff? I'm thinking about using some of it after it's washed. I was originally going to make some sort of wheat with the washed Kolsch, which I may still do, but thought I'd try something a bit quicker like this Graff for my next batch. Any thoughts on using the Kolsch yeast here?

I think that yeast would be awesome in Graf. What other ingredients do you plan to use? Fresh cider? Juice? LME?

ColbyJack said:

I think that yeast would be awesome in Graf. What other ingredients do you plan to use? Fresh cider? Juice? LME?

Click to expand...

I thought for the first batch, I might follow the original recipe, regarding ingredients. I just got 4-gallons of Tree Top 100% Juice from concentrate at Costco for about $17, including tax. They also had unfiltered, organic apple juice there that would've been about $21.50 for 4-gallons, with tax.

I think I want to read all the way through the rest of this thread before I decide on exactly what other ingredients I'm going to use. I do have .25-oz of Hallertauer (4.6%) and .25-oz. of Tettnanger (4.8%) in the freezer right now, left over from the Kolsch that I need to use up, so I thought they'd be perfect for this.

I may just end up sticking pretty close to the original recipe, rather than doing a mini-BIAB, as part of the reason I want to try this is for the time-savings, as well as to test the "base recipe," then decide where to go from there, as far as modifications or substitutions.

I guess the first thing I need to do is wash the yeast so I don't lose it, whether I use it on this, or not.

If I do use the Kolsch yeast, what sort of starter should I make to get it ready for all of that apple juice? Should I use a bit of watered-down juice to get a starter around 1.04 OG? Or should I just pitch more yeast than I need so they're not stressed? I'm not sure boiling, then crash cooling apple juice sounds like a great idea for a starter? I've used the Mr. Malty calculator before, but since I'm repurposing this yeast, that's where I'm getting confused? Should I use a little apple juice and DME for a starter? All DME? All juice watered back?

Rule#1 don't ever boil juice. Pectins set, and will never clear. Pretty sure the yeast won't require a starter. All the natural sugars are like crack cocaine to yeast.
Just go for it!!! You're wasting time!!! You could be done by now!!! Haha

DakotaRules said:

8oz of hops? That seems like a lot to me.

Click to expand...

well, yes. That's the point!

ColbyJack said:

Rule#1 don't ever boil juice. Pectins set, and will never clear. Pretty sure the yeast won't require a starter. All the natural sugars are like crack cocaine to yeast.
Just go for it!!! You're wasting time!!! You could be done by now!!! Haha

Click to expand...

Thank you for the information regarding the pectins. I plan to wash the 2575 yeast today.

Just wrapped up brewing this for the first time.

Ingredients:
4-gallons Tree Top 100% apple juice from concentrate, no additives
1-gallon water
1-pound light liquid malt extract
1-pound amber liquid malt extract
8-ounces Crystal 60
2-ounces torrified wheat
.25-ounces Hallertauer (4.6%)
.25-ounces Tettnanger (4.8%)
Fermcap
.25-teaspoon Supermoss
.5-teaspoon Wyeast Yeast Nutrient
Safale US-05 (1-packet pitched directly into fermentor)

I pretty much followed the guidelines from page 1. I collected about 4.8-gallons after trub loss from using the wort chiller. That was quite the sight, seeing a stainless steel 50-foot wort chiller in my little pot! It took about 2-3-minutes to cool the wort down to pitching temperature.

OG: 1.06 (corrected)

+1 on using yeast nutrient for a healthy and pleasant smelling fermentation. After directly pitching the Safale US-05, fermentation started overnight a few days ago, and has been going well since then, all with no sulfur or other off smells. I used Fermcap in the boil, but the krausen still filled-up the 6.5-gallon Better Bottle and began pushing out the blowoff tube. It seems to have subsided, and it didn't really push very much at all, but I'd personally recommend using a blowoff tube when making this. I'm going to give it another day or two, as I'm fermenting at ambient basement temperatures, and it's supposed to warm up in Denver over the weekend, so I'd imagine temps. downstairs will rise a couple of degrees, and could possibly reinvigorate the fermentation. I'll be swapping to an airlock thereafter.

So, +1 on the yeast nutrient (I used Wyeast), and +1 on using a blowoff tube for this.

+1 for a blowoff tube here in Colorado. Didn't lose much but this batch did wake me up at 3am with it spewing outta the airlock lol. Blowoff tube installed.

I just brewed up a batch of this last night, can't wait! Question on priming...has anyone bottle primed/sweetened this using apple juice concentrate? I'm making a 3 gallon batch so I was thinking of adding 1 or 2 cans of concentrate just before bottling. Has anyone tried this before, and if so, how much concentrate did you use? Thanks in advance!

Is this supposed to taste sour at ten days and 1.006??? I think mine may have gotten infected when it blew the airlock clean off the carboy.. I didn't get to it for like 8 hours and it must have been enough...

Did your apple juice have added vitamin C?

Nope, 100% juice.. :/

The tartness should mellow with time. 10 days is a little too early for the sour to have come from a contamination (in my opinion). Is this your first batch of Graff?

Clifton said:

The tartness should mellow with time. 10 days is a little too early for the sour to have come from a contamination (in my opinion). Is this your first batch of Graff?

Click to expand...

It is, ... I'm obviously worried about the situation with the airlock and open ferment.. I racked to secondary and lowered the temp a few degrees, but it was really sour.

BTW, thanks Clifton. I will try it again in another 10 days and report back..

Just brewed this up tonight following the OP's recipe. Can't wait! It'll be one of my first kegged beer--er cider (and first cider in general.)

agentEhrman said:

BTW, thanks Clifton. I will try it again in another 10 days and report back..

Click to expand...

It's already tasting much better. I think it's going to be tasty, even with the open ferment

Well my recipe turned out like underhopped beer with a little bit of tart aftertaste. 2 gal of juice doesn't seem to be enough when you have a decent grain bill too.

agentEhrman, Good to hear.

bk0, give it some time. I bet the tart will mellow and the apple will come through.

bk0 said:

I just did this last night:

9.5 lbs marris otter
2 lbs crystal 80L
1 lb crystal 120L
Mashed at about 155 degs for an hour

1oz hallertau (4.4% AA) @ 60 min

Added 5 cans apple juice concentrate after wort was cooled (equal to about 2 gallons of juice).

Water to 5 gallons.

OG was at least 1.065 (maybe higher because I didn't go all out trying to mix the juice in).

Bubbling away this morning with US-05.

Click to expand...

5 cans should be about 1.875 gallons of juice. With 3 pounds of crystal malt and Marris Otter you've got a pretty malty and sweet finishing grain bill. What was your FG?

EDIT: I just saw that you brewed this three days ago. Give it some time. It will change for the better.

So I got all the stuff to make 5 gallons not long ago and got it going last night. Here's where I messed up: I got the wort boiled and realized I only have a 3 gallon carboy to ferment in (oops ). I just went with it and used all the wort plus 2 gallons of juice, SG was at 1.064. Hydro sample tasted good, so I have a good feeling about this brew



-Kingboomer

10 gallons of this made today, woo

im sorry if its been posted before, but what is the correct amount of priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch in ounces, just ****ed up a 10 gallon batch from not using enough.

kewlio250 said:

im sorry if its been posted before, but what is the correct amount of priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch in ounces, just ****ed up a 10 gallon batch from not using enough.

Click to expand...

I use 4 ounces of corn sugar for my 5 gallon batches of Graff. Start there and decide if it's over/under for your liking.

Just out of curiosity, how much did you use for your 10 gallon batch?

PortlandPatrick said:

I use 4 ounces of corn sugar for my 5 gallon batches of Graff. Start there and decide if it's over/under for your liking.

Just out of curiosity, how much did you use for your 10 gallon batch?

Click to expand...

i think it was 5.6 over the 10 gallons, resulted in almost a completely flat brew, does it change all that much after the 3 week conditioning time?

I always use 1oz of table sugar per gallon.

I let my batch age for a few weeks and it's getting better. SWMBO said that it tastes like a granny smith apple. I don't get such a strong apple flavor but it's tasting better now than it did after first bottling.

bk0 said:

I let my batch age for a few weeks and it's getting better. SWMBO said that it tastes like a granny smith apple. I don't get such a strong apple flavor but it's tasting better now than it did after first bottling.

Click to expand...

Same here. My batch was a bit tart after first bottling. It has been about three weeks, and it has mellowed a tad, but I still don't get much apple coming through. I'm not sure what i did wrong. Followed the recipe nearly exact. Subbed Safale-05, but so have others. I did ferment a little warm (72-74), but couldn't really help that seeing as it has been over 90. I hope this improves with time, as I have heard good things from others.

After posting, I got to thinking a little bit more. Given the high fermentation temp, could I just be tasting an excess of fusel alcohols? The taste is a bit tart or acidic. kind of like citric acid. I've been fortunate to never have had noticeable fusels in previous brews so I'm not exactly sure what they taste like. This is my first summer brewing in the new house, and the temp has been a bit higher than I am used to. Anyone able to give me an idea of the what fusels taste like? Could this be the problem, or am I getting a little paranoid because this is my first cider and it doesn't taste like anything I am familiar with?

Everyone who tasted my batch loved it. Thanks for the awesome recipe!

Although I haven't gotten through all 100+ pages in this amazing thread, I see many people prime with 4oz of sugar.

Anyone use apple concentrate? Using just less than 1 can will get the equivalent of 4oz of sugar.

Thoughts? I should be ready to bottle in a few days. Thanks!

ericrdb said:

Anyone use apple concentrate? Using just less than 1 can will get the equivalent of 4oz of sugar.

Click to expand...

Not sure how you did the math, but that sounds like a great idea. I will probably try this next time, I would think it would just add a little more flavor..

Sugar should give you 45 ppg. Apple juice is close to the same. A 12 oz can of concentrate is equal to 48oz of juice or 3/8 of a gallon. 2/3 of a can would give 32 ounces of juice. 4oz of sugar by weight gives 11.25 ppg. 32 fl oz of juice should yield approximately the same ppg.

I'm not sure if that is the same math Eric used but that's how I got there.

I used 5 cans of concentrate for the equivalent of about 2 gallons of juice in a 5 gallon batch.

After 2.5 weeks, it is still bubbling every couple of minutes, think it'd be safe to prime and bottle this stuff? I'm going to forgo kegging, as I want to give it ample time to condition, and I don't want one of my kegs held up for that long.

Clifton said:

Sugar should give you 45 ppg. Apple juice is close to the same. A 12 oz can of concentrate is equal to 48oz of juice or 3/8 of a gallon. 2/3 of a can would give 32 ounces of juice. 4oz of sugar by weight gives 11.25 ppg. 32 fl oz of juice should yield approximately the same ppg.

I'm not sure if that is the same math Eric used but that's how I got there.

Click to expand...

Google told me that 1oz of sugar is roughly 28grams: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_in_1_ounce_of_sugar

So, I'm looking for 4 x 28 or 112grams.

TreeTop's website reports 26g/serving in the 12 oz can of concentrate: http://www.treetop.com/ProductDetail.aspx?CategoryID=1&ProductID=192

So, 112 (total needed)/ 26 (serving in the can) = 4.3 servings out of a can that holds 6 servings. Translating to roughly 2/3 of the can of 12oz concentrate.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll give it a shot!

I just did another batch of this last night. Put the recipe together from memory and it's a little off but hopefully it will still be good.

.75# Crystal 60L
.25# Crystal 120L
2# Light DME
4 gal Mott's "Natural" apple juice (looks more like cider than most juices)
.3 oz Palisade
1L starter of Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale yeast

All the other times I've done this I've also included a couple ounces of flaked wheat. Forgot that this time so I'm interested to see how much of a difference it will make.

timmah84 said:

After 2.5 weeks, it is still bubbling every couple of minutes, think it'd be safe to prime and bottle this stuff? I'm going to forgo kegging, as I want to give it ample time to condition, and I don't want one of my kegs held up for that long.

Click to expand...

Anyone?

Has the gravity stabilized? I would think fermentation would be done, but there is only one way to be sure. Your trusty hydrometer can tell you!

Dang, took a gravity reading it was at 1.004 -- I never took an OG reading (kinda forgot, doh!) The sample had a very harsh alcohol taste. Hopefully this ages well after bottling. I'll check the gravity again in a couple days to see if there is any change.

I admit,I did have the airlock blow off and it fermented quite high (74 temp range), while I was gone for a weekend, but figured with the co2 blanket and the fruity esters would be okay, we'll see how it ages. *fingers crossed* I want a good cider!

timmah84 said:

Dang, took a gravity reading it was at 1.004 -- I never took an OG reading (kinda forgot, doh!) The sample had a very harsh alcohol taste. Hopefully this ages well after bottling. I'll check the gravity again in a couple days to see if there is any change.

I admit,I did have the airlock blow off and it fermented quite high (74 temp range), while I was gone for a weekend, but figured with the co2 blanket and the fruity esters would be okay, we'll see how it ages. *fingers crossed* I want a good cider!

Click to expand...

You don't need the OG for this purpose. Take a reading today, then again in a few days - if it's the same, then it's done. When did you take the 1.004 reading? Yesterday? If so, check again on Monday night.