What is the Late Extract Method?

Chello said:

I don't know the answer to this question/comment, however i just want to give you some props for drinking already. It's 12:00 somewhere!

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lol, i posted that last night. However, I have been known to hit the juice prior to noon.

oh yeah, maybe i need a drink to wake my eyes up!

stormtracker said:

Call me dumb.

My reading comprehension isnt the best. Hey Im drinking... And I think its safe to admit this here on this site.

Here goes.... add 2 times the hops and boil 30 minutes for this late LME method? Correct?

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I've experimented with that also, but most of the LA brewing is boiling for 45-60 mins and adding 1/2 to 4/5th of the malt after the 45 min time.

Me? I just boil 1.5 gals with 1 lb of malt, boil 45 then add the rest of the malt and steep for 15.

I tried the 30 min boil, double the hops (add Irish Moss at 15 mins), remove from heat at 30 and steep for 15.

The result was surprising. The bitterness was there as was some flavoring...

Curious-

I thought you needed to boil the DME/LME until you have reached the "Hot Break", to ensure that proteins have been broken down, and also to ensure that add impurities will be boiled off (sulfur,etc).

But it seems from this thread that the DME/LME was already boiled during the grain extract process, and its redundant for the home brewer?

HP_Lovecraft said:

Curious-

I thought you needed to boil the DME/LME until you have reached the "Hot Break", to ensure that proteins have been broken down, and also to ensure that add impurities will be boiled off (sulfur,etc).

But it seems from this thread that the DME/LME was already boiled during the grain extract process, and its redundant for the home brewer?

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DME and LME have already hit a hotbreak...

I've been brewing using DME for a while, and have used late addition in my last batches and have experienced a huge improvement in color. i use just alittle DME at the beggining in order to have hop utilization and add most (about 95%) at flameout, dissolve and let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Haven't had any problems plus simplifies a lot brewing i/e more time to drink:rockin:

Late addition has been one of the single best things to happen to my beer as of late, mind you I only have five batches under my belt. Keeping the boil gravity in line (1 # DME: 1 gal water roughly gets me 1.040) has really helped with utilization and carmalization is a non issue now. WOOT!

Thanks to all those here that have suggested it!

My brewing method is 3gal boils with all the LME added at the beginning. My understanding is LME yields 36ppg. So if I add 2lbs LME to 1 gal water do I have a gravity of 1.072 ? Then do I add the rest of the LME(5 lbs) to 1gal water at the end of the boil? I really like the idea of late extract additions but I think info overload is making this confusing. I'm looking at the recipes in Brewing Classic Styles by Jamil & John and trying to scale the recipes to a 3gal boil and a late extract addition. To boot, I just got the trial version of Beersmith. The ppg yield listed in How to Brew(pg 193) are different than Jamil & John's assumptions(pg 40) & Beersmith's. I also steep my grains. Elsewhere in this thread I've heard mentioned that steeping grains supplies negligible ppg. I'm down with experimentation, but if it were as easy as adding half the LME with all the hops@ 60mins and the rest of the LME @ knockout I could stop grinding my gears. Holy palindrome Batman, I'm cornfused!!

Ridge Runner said:

My brewing method is 3gal boils with all the LME added at the beginning. My understanding is LME yields 36ppg. So if I add 2lbs LME to 1 gal water do I have a gravity of 1.072 ? Then do I add the rest of the LME(5 lbs) to 1gal water at the end of the boil? I really like the idea of late extract additions but I think info overload is making this confusing. I'm looking at the recipes in Brewing Classic Styles by Jamil & John and trying to scale the recipes to a 3gal boil and a late extract addition. To boot, I just got the trial version of Beersmith. The ppg yield listed in How to Brew(pg 193) are different than Jamil & John's assumptions(pg 40) & Beersmith's. I also steep my grains. Elsewhere in this thread I've heard mentioned that steeping grains supplies negligible ppg. I'm down with experimentation, but if it were as easy as adding half the LME with all the hops@ 60mins and the rest of the LME @ knockout I could stop grinding my gears. Holy palindrome Batman, I'm cornfused!!

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I started down that path...and then quickly made a u-turn Gear grinding stops here :rockin:

I do half and half for the most part and the results have been great. I did a SNPA clone over the weekend that called for 6 # of DME, just steeped my 1 # of caramel 60L @ 160 for 40 minutes in three gallons of water, added 3 # of DME, did my hop schedule, and then 10 minutes prior to flame out I took it off the heat and added my additional 3 # of DME and topped off after cooling. I haven't found a reason to make it any more complicated than that as of yet, but this was my fifth beer so I'm not an expert by any means (and I'm sure that somebody will point out the flaws in my methods). Did the same on an IPA recently that turned out just peachy though...each beer is better and better.

According to beersmith (I just started using it) if you add 2 # LME to 1 gal of water you are going to be at around 1.014...not 1.072. I wouldn't worry about steeping grains in terms of fermentables...very minor. I would just suggest that you go one route and stick with it for a few batches to see what you get and not worry about the numbers all that much (although beersmith is VERY handy).

EDIT: Beersmith is saying that you'd need to add 10 # of LME (pale) to get to 1.072 in one gal of water!!! Yikes.

Oh and...Wildflower seed on the stand and stone, May the four winds blow you safely home!

And don't forget, Beersmith now has a "late extract addition" option by checking the box under the choice. So, you could do 2 pounds DME at the beginning, and then add 4 pounds DME as the "late extract addition" just by checking the box in the options. It will figure your hops utilization, as well as print the directions on your brew sheet!

YooperBrew said:

And don't forget, Beersmith now has a "late extract addition" option by checking the box under the choice. So, you could do 2 pounds DME at the beginning, and then add 4 pounds DME as the "late extract addition" just by checking the box in the options. It will figure your hops utilization, as well as print the directions on your brew sheet!

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Yes. Forgot to mention that...saved me when I found it!

YooperBrew And don't forget, Beersmith now has a "late extract addition" option

Yeah, that worked. I've only been tweakin this prog for about 3 days now. Finally got the OG to stay right on on my sample batch. Thanks Y'all!!

On one of the Sunday Show Brewing Network Podcasts, John Palmer mentions that using the late extract addition can reduce extract twang. I believe it was the 2-25 episode on this page.

He says that extract twang is caused by doing a concentrated boil of malt extract. One can reduce the twang by doing a mostly normal gravity boil with half the extract and adding the rest at the end.

Has anyone here who has tried late extract addition noticed a reduced extract twang in their beer?


He also mentions that caramelization of wort is a myth, though I'm inclined not to believe him in this case. I've never gotten beers as light as some of the pictures posted in this thread.

I'll try this out in one of my future brews to increase hop utilization and see if it does reduce twang.

My last batch was much improved in terms of color and lack o' twang as a result of late additions.

So im doing a Hanks Hefe soon and recipe is
6 lbs. Wheat liquid malt extract, 1 lb. of Light DME, 8 oz. Carapils specialty grains, 1 oz. oz. bittering hops

now do i 1/2 the hops using the Late extract method? Do i just cut the boil down to 45 min?

thanks for any help.

Late additions won't effect your hop utilization, only the taste and color of your wort.

Basically, in your standard 5 gallon batch brewed with a kit you will have 2-3 gallons of wort and the end of your boil, and top that off with 2-3 gallons of room temperature water. When your boil is 4-5 gallons, your hops are being distributed throughout that wort more and won't be diminished by topping off with water.

For this Hefe, do a 60 minute boil, add your full ounce of bittering hops, just don't add all your extract at the beginning- add about 30% at 60 min. and 70% at 20 minutes. This will give you a lighter colored, less twangy extract brew.

Brewbeard said:

...On one of the Sunday Show Brewing Network Podcasts, John Palmer mentions that using the late extract addition can reduce extract twang. I believe it was the 2-25 episode on this page...He also mentions that caramelization of wort is a myth, though I'm inclined not to believe him in this case. I've never gotten beers as light as some of the pictures posted in this thread...I'll try this out in one of my future brews to increase hop utilization and see if it does reduce twang.

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I've carmelized wort...it's not a myth.

However, the more water you start with and the amount of time you boil are the deciding factors here.

Berlbrew said:

Late additions won't effect your hop utilization, only the taste and color of your wort.

Basically, in your standard 5 gallon batch brewed with a kit you will have 2-3 gallons of wort and the end of your boil, and top that off with 2-3 gallons of room temperature water. When your boil is 4-5 gallons, your hops are being distributed throughout that wort more and won't be diminished by topping off with water.

For this Hefe, do a 60 minute boil, add your full ounce of bittering hops, just don't add all your extract at the beginning- add about 30% at 60 min. and 70% at 20 minutes. This will give you a lighter colored, less twangy extract brew.

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thank you . Ill try it ans see what happens!

Berlbrew said:

Late additions won't effect your hop utilization, only the taste and color of your wort.

Basically, in your standard 5 gallon batch brewed with a kit you will have 2-3 gallons of wort and the end of your boil, and top that off with 2-3 gallons of room temperature water. When your boil is 4-5 gallons, your hops are being distributed throughout that wort more and won't be diminished by topping off with water.

For this Hefe, do a 60 minute boil, add your full ounce of bittering hops, just don't add all your extract at the beginning- add about 30% at 60 min. and 70% at 20 minutes. This will give you a lighter colored, less twangy extract brew.

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I agree, top off water will dilute the increased utilization aquired by LA method. I have used the full amount of hops that recipes have called for and have never had an overpowering bitterness.

Schnitzengiggle said:

I agree, top off water will dilute the increased utilization aquired by LA method. I have used the full amount of hops that recipes have called for and have never had an overpowering bitterness.

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+1 on this.

Hops utilization isn't affected by wort gravity. So late addition isn't going to help with utilization.

This is something most of the common formulas for estimating IBUs get wrong, so if your software has a flag to adjust hops utilization for late additions you're better off leaving it off even if you're doing a late addition.

SumnerH said:

+1 on this.

Hops utilization isn't affected by wort gravity. So late addition isn't going to help with utilization.

This is something most of the common formulas for estimating IBUs get wrong, so if your software has a flag to adjust hops utilization for late additions you're better off leaving it off even if you're doing a late addition.

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I disagree about the wort gravity, the more concentrated the wort the less utilization you get from your hops, this is one reason why LA method is employed. Basically you want to have a lower gravity/less-concentrated wort to utilize the AA's in the hops more efficiently, hence increasing the IBU's. However, adding top-off water will dilute the total IBU's. Conversely, adding all of your Extract in the beginning of the boil will reduce the utilization of the AA's lowering overall IBU's, plus you will dilute further with top-off water. Of course, this is considering you are doing partial boils rather than full boils.

cant you boil for a shorter amount of time iif you wanted less hop utilization?

SumnerH said:

Hops utilization isn't affected by wort gravity. So late addition isn't going to help with utilization.

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That's not true...wort density DOES effect hop utilization (extraction) as well as the harsh bitterness extraction from ther hops.

smakudwn said:

cant you boil for a shorter amount of time iif you wanted less hop utilization?

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Yes, you can.

See the Hop Utilization Chart in Papazian's The Complete Joy of Homebrewing...

Schnitzengiggle said:

I disagree about the wort gravity, the more concentrated the wort the less utilization you get from your hops

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homebrewer_99 said:

That's not true...wort density DOES effect hop utilization (extraction)

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No, it doesn't. This is a common myth among homebrewers that people like John Palmer are only in the past year or so working to dispel.

See, e.g. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/ for links to interviews with John Palmer and journals from the American Society of Brewing Chemists dispelling the notion that hops utilization is affected by gravity.

Common IBU algorithms do include a gravity factor, but it turns out that the actual impact on utilization is related to the total amount of break material in a boil and not to the gravity or concentration of the boil. That's an okay proxy in all-barley recipes but falls apart a bit in cases where the break increases much more than the gravity increase (e.g. wheat/rye) or much less (e.g. simple sugars). It also is a function of total amount of break, not concentration thereof, and is thus unrelated to boil size.

Now, there might be a small impact on utilization in a concentrated boil, but nothing like the gravity factors would predict (e.g. according to Tinseth you'd need about 60% more hops in a 2.5 gallon partial boil to get the same bittering as in a 5 gallon boil). If there is, it's because of volume-to-surface-area issues, not wort gravity.

Well then, I'll sit down and shut up. I guess the science of IBU's is finally being taken a little more seriously.

Or...we could agree to disagree...

Lets say the verdict is still out.

Having said that, does that mean in a partial boil with ALL extract and w/o any steeping grains that there would be no loss of IBU's and that the hops would be fully utilized such as in a full boil?

Schnitzengiggle said:

Lets say the verdict is still out.

Having said that, does that mean in a partial boil with ALL extract and w/o any steeping grains that there would be no loss of IBU's and that the hops would be fully utilized such as in a full boil?

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The verdict is still out. Certainly the numbers you'd get if you believe the gravity factors used by IBU estimation algorithms (Tinseth, Rager, Daniels, Garetz, Mosher, etc) are a little out of whack; gravity correction would say that a 2.5 gallon boil needs about 60% more hops than a full boil to reach the same IBUs.

Empirical experience from home brewers seems to guess that around 10% more is a better guess, perhaps because of the lower volume to surface area ratio of the surrounding pot (exposed surfaces can pull isometerized alpha acids out), or perhaps for some other reason.

I've found a couple of places that will do real IBU measurements, so one of my goals for later in this year is to do some controlled tests of the same hopping with full and partial boils and early and late additions, as well as with grain vs. extract and see how they measure out. It's about $40/beer to test so it'll be a little while before I get the funds together to do it. I'll certainly post in the IBU thread over in brew science when I get results.

My personal guess is that there will be some relatively small difference (much closer to 10% than 60%) between full and partial boils, that there will be some difference between grain and extract, and that there won't be much difference between early and late addition. But I'm not particularly confident in any of those guesses.

And it's worth noting that perceived bitterness doesn't necessarily correlate exactly with IBUs (as Palmer's interview and other sources note). The age of the hops, the variety of hops, how much residual sweetness there is to balance things out, the aroma and flavoring, and a whole host of other factors can affect how bitter something tastes in ways that can vary differently from the IBUs.

SumnerH said:

No, it doesn't. This is a common myth among homebrewers that people like John Palmer are only in the past year or so working to dispel.

See, e.g. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/ for links to interviews with John Palmer and journals from the American Society of Brewing Chemists dispelling the notion that hops utilization is affected by gravity.

Common IBU algorithms do include a gravity factor, but it turns out that the actual impact on utilization is related to the total amount of break material in a boil and not to the gravity or concentration of the boil. That's an okay proxy in all-barley recipes but falls apart a bit in cases where the break increases much more than the gravity increase (e.g. wheat/rye) or much less (e.g. simple sugars). It also is a function of total amount of break, not concentration thereof, and is thus unrelated to boil size.

Now, there might be a small impact on utilization in a concentrated boil, but nothing like the gravity factors would predict (e.g. according to Tinseth you'd need about 60% more hops in a 2.5 gallon partial boil to get the same bittering as in a 5 gallon boil). If there is, it's because of volume-to-surface-area issues, not wort gravity.

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Granted, we all learn from different sources and there is more to learn every day, but I based my statement on Papazian's TCJOHB, pages 257 and 258...which IS based on density.

...and I've been using this info since 1994...

homebrewer_99 said:

Granted, we all learn from different sources and there is more to learn every day, but I based my statement on Papazian's TCJOHB, pages 257 and 258...which IS based on density.

...and I've been using this info since 1994...

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Yeah, Palmer admits that he got this wrong even a decade after that (in the 2005 edition of How to Brew). It's one of those things that commercial brewers have known for a long time, but never crossed the aisle--in large part because commercial brewers never use IBU estimation algorithms, they actually measure the IBUs of their brews. And for a fairly broad spectrum of beers, using gravity as a stand-in for the amount of break material results in fairly close results.

Regardless of the math and the numbers, it is truly all relevant to individual perception. Almost everything can be brought down to relevance