first partial mash

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Yeah man,we usually pitch 05 & the like dry. But I thought since cooper's ale yeast takes to re-hydrating so well,this one should be even better. I'm wondering if 05 & the like aren't as hardy as the cooper's? Lost a lot of cells this time. Kinda like my 1st brew where I pitched cooper's 7g packet dry & high. Almost no visible action. But this is the 1st time the yeast went belly up & krausen dissipated. I guess I freeked out. Goin to the next level (partial mash) is a lot like bein a noob again. Cool but forboding,you know?
By the by,I pitched the 2nd packet dry. JW Dover has some darn fresh yeast. The date on it was April 2014. And at $3.75,it wasn't too bad to do a 2nd one. Maybe the 05 is better off pitched dry? It was always pitch around 7-8pm,bubbling by 7am kinda thing. that's the basis for my concern,beyond my usual re-hydrate being a bit quicker & more vigorous...
 
Nordeast,ya def busted me this time. Point taken. I'm usually not overly concerned,but the old ways were comfortable at this point. And it has been some 3-4 months since I last brewed 2 batches. New burners changed my timing drasticaly too.
It's like all the reading I did pales in comparison to actual practice. Then some things go wrong that are out of the usual, &...Oh well,next time gadget...next tiiiime...
 
I've never use Cooper's, aside from what I've harvested from Sparkling Ale (Coop's Gold?). But I can tell you that 05 is a beast, and quite reliable. I've both rehydrated and pitched dry with it, and the only diff. was in lag time, both ways get great apparent attenuation and a clean fermentation.
Now that you've got that second pack in there, there's no need at all to stress. Especially with a ~10 pt drop in SG. You're all good buddy!!

Edit: saw the last post. You're definitely just feeling like this is all new since the PM part was. Just remember that you've made lots of great beers, and there's no reason that this one'll be any different.
 
visible signs of fermentation doesn't always mean the yeast are healthier or doing better

a longer lag stage isn't necessarily a bad thing and is common when using pure 02 - it could also be a result of having a more nutrient rich environment since you did a partial mash

you're way over thinking this one - if the temps are right there is no harm in rehydrating if you are sanitary - pitching dry doesn't guarantee lower cell count either based on a few studies but it isn't the recommended way of doing it and could lead to lower cell count.
 
Yeah, Terrapin, I was just thinking about that. My AG brews don't kick off nearly as fast as my extracts do, in general. Maybe the longer lag is due to a more nutrient rich environment, the yeast absorbing the nutrients and o2 for a spell before reproducing and going at the sugar.
 
I'm becoming rather glad I bounced to PM right away. I did two extract brews, a mead, and a cider, then jumped onto PM. This way I never got comfortable with the extract. :tank:
 
Hmmmm...you two might be onto something here. I remember that thread we were all in yesterday about this subject,& the posted excerpts about yeast dry,re-hydrated,with wort or water.
I must agree that my extract ales did take off faster with re-hydrated cooper's yeast. About the same amount of time 05 takes pitched dry. I didn't think about the PM being richer in fermentables vsun-fermentables in extract. I wonder if that's the difference I freaked about & didn't stop to realize? Never thought that'd make a difference.
And yeah zeg,I guess I did indeed get comfortable with recombinent extract brews. I must've finally hit critical mass?...
 
Think about the difference in the amount of break material you noticed. Proteins, nutrients, etc., that's what that is. Makes sense that it'd give the yeasties something more to do before they get at the sugars.
Either way, gladly your beer's fermenting away now.
 
No bubbling yet in the blow off,but it def picked up some. The hot break was the quickest,most violent to date. Geez. It came on like hell fire through dry brush,15 seconds or so later,it went down slowly about 1/4" then literally POOF! gone,just that quick. That was a big surprise. Picture me standin there with a 2' paddle stirrin like mad,& rapidly loosing ground. Aaaaw shnikeys...thar she blooows! Nope,just wjhen I thought I was in for a mess,it just went poof & was gone like a genie in a huff.
I was surprised to find the gravity had dropped at all this morning. Didn't expect that. Glad I was wrong,but also that I added another packet. The survivors of the hot hydrate had to be pretty weak & few in numbers judging from what I saw in there this morning.
 
Well,I figured the surest way to need a blow off is to remove it & install an airlock filled with cheap vodka. It's bubbling slowly atm. Now watch...Later on I'll witness beersuvious. It has been fermenting slow but sure. Just never had US-05 act like this. Oh well,it's all good now.
 
Well,today is the 2 week mark in the fermenter. The 1st FG sample clocked in at 1.013. Range is listed as 1.010-1,012,so it's darn close. But it's still silty/cloudy. The fine stuff is still circulating around,even in the hydrometer tube. Tastes like green beer now with malty/yeasty aroma. But not at all offensive. The hops taste more like they do at this point with my extract beers. No off flavors or smells,thank God. Straw gold color from the silt in the hydrometer tube. Thinking of trying crystal 40L in place of the 10L next time. May replace half the 4lb of 2 row with 2 lb of marris otter as well. I think it needs a tad more malt flavor & color to be closer to my extract APA/IPA malt profile.
 
Sounds like you hit your OG, hit your FG and made a good beer. I'd give it another few days if not a week to see if it settles more. Then carb it up and taste it. You may find that you alter the changes you are planning to make next time after you've tasted it carbed and conditioned.
 
I had to rescue my PM yesterday with DME because I missed my OG by a lot. Not sure why either, it would have to been RIDICULOUSLY low efficiency to have missed by as much as I did - like 20% efficiency. Glad you had a better result.
 
Me too,being my 1st pm. I'm hoping to get it down to 1.010. The OG range was 1.042-1.046,I got 1.044. And I used a mini food prcessor to crush the grains. But I did see in another thread to use a fine crush for biab. So maybe I got lucky on that part & guess right. Yeah,I'll have to taste it to make a final dicision on aroma,flavor,& color. But I do like the idea of some UK marris otter. I wonder how efficiency is computed?...
 
Well,here we are 8 days later,& It only dropped one point to FG1.012. & it still is very cloudy. Tastes good though,no yeast flavor. Hop flavors getting quite good,very fresh tasting. I'll give it till friday or saturday morning to settle more before it has to get bottled to be in time for thanksgiving.
I'm thinking of using wirlfloc or the like next time. I have no place to cold crash,so I may have to just bottle settle this batch.
 
Union, I did a partial mash last night with a 10 gallon cooler. The big difference is, for the first time, I dunk sparged. MAN, do I recommend dunk sparging!! It was infinitely easier and I nailed my 75% efficiency goal right on the nose. I didn't use a finer crush for BIAB, because I don't really want higher than 75% efficiency - I hope to be right around there for everything, including all grain and make the system repeatable so I have better control over my calculations. What I did was heat water to about 175 and dumped that into my cooler. I waited for the strike water to cool to 161 - this was an easy way of preheating my cooler and getting my strike water to temp in one simple step. I added the 5lbs grain which dropped my temp to 151. I let the cooler sit open for a min til it dropped to 150 and closed it up. 40 Min later, I started heating sparge water in my kettle (now freed up since I mashed in the cooler). I had mashed with about 2 gallons - A little more than 1.5q/lb. The sparge water I heated was 2 gallons (expecting to lose about 1/2 gallon to the grain and given me a 3.5 gallon boil vol.) 1 hour later, I was at 148 degrees in the mash tun. I withdrew the bag and set it on my big strainer for a few min to drain. (I like this better than a collander because it's got a long handle and rests across almost any diameter pot/bucket/etc). I then took the bag and dunked it into the 168 deg sparge water and allowed it to sit about 10 min. I then put it into the strainer over the BK and waited about 5 min for it to drain. I then combined the two worts into the BK and measured the volume - I had exactly the anticipated 3.5 gallons. Took a gravity sample and I nailed the expected preboil volume minus the extract on the nose! I then went on with my boil. The dunk sparge was great... MUCH better BIAB conversion than I got trying to batch sparge before. I did use whirflock, so we'll see how it comes out. Obviously BIAB without recirculating is going to be a little more cloudy, but small trade off IMO for what it enables us to do.
 
Say J,have you done PM before & did you bottle or keg? I bottle,& if I do get a batch that's slightly misty,whether from yeast action or a pound of wheat DME in the mix,it always settles out in 1-3 days...rarely 7.
This partial mash got a fine crush (I think I went overboard)that still had some chunkiness to it. I just took a 2nd Fg sample,& it's not silty,but cloudy/hazy. Looks like the really fine stuff is still in suspension. I was hoping it'd settle out in the bottles like my extract batches did when they had that lil bit of haziness to them. What's your experience with haziness from the crush?
 
I bottle. I haven't yet bottled my first PM. I have heard from others, that the lack of the recirculation step certainly leads to a cloudiness - or, more of a cloudiness anyway. That's the one criticism of BIAB I have heard. Actually, I guess that since I mashed in a cooler, I technically could have performed a quasi vorlauf step with the spout. I don't think the cloudiness will bother me in my first beer since it was a belgian dubbel. My last was an Irish Red and I'm not sure how that will be affected.
 
I was hoping that the very cloudy/misty stuff would settle in the bottles like extract beers do in my experiences thus far. I'm gunna order some five star super floc tomorrow for next time. It's added like the last 5 minutes of the boil for when it goes into primary to settle that fine stuff out even better (protiens & chill haze stuff too it says). Five star has been great stuff so far,so I'll be trying that from midwest.
Well,gotta take boys to library,be bake in awhile...
 
I have heard from some BIAB folks that certain cloudiness will subside after a couple weeks of bottle conditioning. There was also a post on here where a guy says that by taking his dry bag full of grain and shaking the loose flour, fine particles out before putting it into the mash, he gets clearer beer. Haven't tried this, but again, I choose not to grind finer for BIAB than I would for say a regular AG session. I use the mill at the LHBS and grind everything the same.
 
I dunk sparged. MAN, do I recommend dunk sparging!! .

A big plus one there. Dunk sparging is easier, IME and I got really good efficiency doing it.

Well,here we are 8 days later,& It only dropped one point to FG1.012. & it still is very cloudy. Tastes good though,no yeast flavor. Hop flavors getting quite good,very fresh tasting. I'll give it till friday or saturday morning to settle more before it has to get bottled to be in time for thanksgiving.
I'm thinking of using wirlfloc or the like next time. I have no place to cold crash,so I may have to just bottle settle this batch.

Yeah, I'd recommend whirl floc when using a mash of any type. You get a lot more break/proteins from a mash as opposed to extract and the whirlfloc or Irish moss will really help with that.
 
I guess either one would do it. But the super moss sounded a lil better to me. 1/4tsp last 10 minutes of the boil with that one. I'll find out on the next batch coming up soon.
 
Ok,finally bottling day! Cleaned & sanitised the bottling bucket after filtering my jug of starsan. Heating up 2C of water for priming solution now. Forgot the battery for the scale though. I got this shot glass measuring thing from bed,bath,& way beyond that has ounces,tsp,& TBSP markings. I got the 5oz bag of dextrose from the kit,& it needs 4.6 oz per tastybrew priming calculator for 2.52 vco2. Since I know about how much that'll be,this'll be a good test of the lil measure. I also have a couple cases of bottles I went through & cleaned again as well. One less thing to worry about. An update will come after bottling.
 
Ok,well.nordeast,I think you're right about the amount of trub.etc one gets from any kind of mash vs extract. I strained all going into primary,& only got 47 bottles out of the batch a couple minutes ago. The primary bucket feels a lil heavy too vs extract trub amount. I did find it easier tio get the last drop of brew out of this pm vs extract batch though. The pm beer separates from th etrub during racking easier with pm ,from my observations. Now the wait begins. The aroma was out freaking standing. Lots of malt & hop aroma while bottling!:ban: I think I'm going to like pm!
 
Ok,well.nordeast,I think you're right about the amount of trub.etc one gets from any kind of mash vs extract. I strained all going into primary,& only got 47 bottles out of the batch a couple minutes ago. The primary bucket feels a lil heavy too vs extract trub amount. I did find it easier tio get the last drop of brew out of this pm vs extract batch though. The pm beer separates from th etrub during racking easier with pm ,from my observations. Now the wait begins. The aroma was out freaking standing. Lots of malt & hop aroma while bottling!:ban: I think I'm going to like pm!

You didn't mention the flavor! How's it taste going into bottles?
 
Sorry girl,I forgot. My bad babe. It tasted like the malt was progressing faster than an extract would in terms of greenness. The hop flavor/aroma from the cascade hops used waas...I know this might sound weird...But the hops smelled/tasted more like a finished beer! Does that make any sense to you? The partial mash def made q difference in terms of malt & hop flavors in green pm beer vs extract. This pm beer smelled & tasted like it had progessed further,faster than extract in terms of greenness. Is it just me or do you understand/get this result??? Seriously...
 
Sorry girl,I forgot. My bad babe. It tasted like the malt was progressing faster than an extract would in terms of greenness. The hop flavor/aroma from the cascade hops used waas...I know this might sound weird...But the hops smelled/tasted more like a finished beer! Does that make any sense to you? The partial mash def made q difference in terms of malt & hop flavors in green pm beer vs extract. This pm beer smelled & tasted like it had progessed further,faster than extract in terms of greenness. Is it just me or do you understand/get this result??? Seriously...

Interesting description, but I think I know what you're saying. Sounds really good, actually! :ban:
 
It does indeed smell/taste like the pm brew is better than extract in terms of progression of aroma & flavor. It is less "green" than extract equivalents,imho. Boy,does beer & vodka feel good after bottling...:tank:
 
It does indeed smell/taste like the pm brew is better than extract in terms of progression of aroma & flavor. It is less "green" than extract equivalents,imho. Boy,does beer & vodka feel good after bottling...:tank:

Yea, once you're setup equipment wise and process wise, there are really no drawbacks to PM over ESG that I can see. Not only more control, more options, and its cheaper!! Knocking a $16 bottle of LME off for a couple bucks in grain is wonderful. I enjoy my Partial Mashes a lot more with dunk sparging! It was easier and better conversion. Glad you enjoyed the process and I hope your beer is great!
 
Thanks,it did settle out more of that fine cloudy stuff by bottling time. The pm kit was $25 vs an average of $35 for my extract recipes. I'm also thinking of trying the dunk sparge next time to get the OG up a little.I got 47 bottles out of this batch. Gunna change some of the grains next time to get closer to what my APA's were.
 
I think it's safe to say that an grain based beer comes across much "fresher" than an extract. Malt and hops flavors seem more defined maybe. Definitely give the dunk sparge a try when you do BIAB, way easier than trying to pour the sparge water, and you'll get similar if not better efficiency. And don't be afraid to squeeze your sack either. Don't over do it, but a little squeezing will get some extra wort out. Couple more PM batches and you'll be ready to do a BIAB all grain!
 
Now that I think about it,pm does seem to have better definition of aromas & flavors right off the bat. Sure,my extract beers were good. But this is looking to be more well defined,to say the least. And I def wouldn't want to squeeze my sack very hard.:D I'll be experimenting with pm for a while yet. But an AG pale ale might be fun to try. I'm liking the idea of using different grains to get various flavor qualities already. Not to mention the cheap grain prices! I'm gunna try adding up the prices of the grains I'll be using next batch just to get a comparison to how much my extract APA costs.
**PS-Just looked up the prices on 5lb of grains I need for my APA pm version with 3.3lb jug of Breisse gold. $20.69 for a 5 gallon batch. Not a bad price at all from midwest!
 
Yep, and that LME jug is what, almost half of that cost! I still buy my grains on a per batch basis up at Midwest, and the cost is the awesome compared to extract. If I'm reusing yeast, session beers are ~$15-20. Once I get the garage finished, I'm gonna start buying my base malts in bulk which is like another big decrease in cost.
I'll be honest man, it didn't take me long to go from PM to AG. When I realized how easy BIAB is, and how good the beer is, I quickly started doing BIAB all grain. Another thing I noticed is that (I'm assuming due to paying more attention to every detail) my extract beers are better. The last few batches I've brewed have been extract, and they've been coming out just as tasty and well attenuated as my AGs.
 
Interesting point. I have been thinking of brewing some of my extract recipes again in the future. Might make a nice comparison doing my APA as an extract & a pm. Then side by side taste test,color,etc.:mug:
 
Well,here we are 3rd day after bottling. They're already clearing very nicely. That fine misty/cloudy stuff from the fine crush didn't take much to settle out. Light color,gold with some amber maybe.
Still have to get those heavy cases upstairs where the extra warmth will carb them better. It's ok down here,but heating isn't as even.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
Never used the super moss, but I'm sure it works just as well or better than regular moss. Just whirl floc tabs, they're easy and they work well.

I use regular Irish moss... I am not yet making Super Beers, just regular beers. ;-)

I am following this thread because I am interested in doing Partial Mashes. I am a noob, and I want to get the specialty grains/extract method (as well as all my other processes) down before venturing over that next horizon.

I do have a question, and hopefully some one following this can answer it (and not trying to highjack your thread, just thought someone already following can answer it):
Are partial mash/mini mash the same thing, meaning AHS might call it mini mash, but NB might call it partial mash?
 
I believe they're interchangable terms. This was a 1st for me as well. I was recombining extract malts-DME,LME,pre-bittered,plain with various hops & styles different volumes,etc. I just said to myself F'it,I've read enough about it,nothin left to it but to do it. It's clearing very nicely in the bottles now,so that's nearly the last hurdle in this new level learning process.
Looking back to brew day,Oct 9th,I'd have to say my stressing like a noob was unfounded. And the bit about needing a fine crush for biab may not be entirely accurate. I'll play around with that aspect of it some more before I come upon a good solution. Need a grain crusher though. Didn't find one locally I could afford,so I used an old mini food processor I mentioned earlier. Efficiency must've been pretty good,since I got an OG of 1.044 from a range of 1.042-1.046. FG range 1.010-1.012,got FG1.012. Looks to be on track so far.
 
Partial mash and mini mash or interchangeable terms. For me, Mini Mash is more appropriate, but partial mash seems more popular. I get that you are mashing "part" of the grain bill... but you are FULLY mashing what grain you are mashing, just on a smaller scale, so Mini-mash is more appropriate in my eyes.

Also Ronsky - I don't mean to be so repetative with this whole dunk sparge business, but I gotta tell you... I can certainly understand someone being intimidated by reading about AG or PM and hearing about fly sparging and hot liquior tanks, etc. But if you do a BIAB mini mash with dunk sparging, it is LITERALLY no different from steeping grains other than paying more attention to water volume and specific temperatures. You are soaking a grain big (bigger one) in a volume of water for about an hour. Then you are soaking it in another volume of water for a few minutes. The only difference really being that the temps of the water is important and is being held closer.
 
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