Keg tool

Even though I believe I am shooting myself in the foot here, I have thought about it a lot and, what the heck. I think the final straw on this came from a convo with the typical type and all they wanted to do was barder and cut my prices down. I don't get it. (It was no one from here)

Ok. Since I have shown pics of how I mod kegs for couplers, there has been much up roar in the threads the pics are posted in. I am guilty of not keeping the threads on track either. I have helped to steer the topic in those 2 (I think) threads from the OP. I didn't want those or other threads to get skewed. So I thought I would post a thread for it. I am still not going to tell how "I" do it. Please don't ask.

I will and I hope others will give to the discussion and come up with another way to do this that would be more easy for others to do this. For those with knowledge of working with stainless steel, some of this will be redundant.(sp)

Disclaimer, I am a weldor. I do not claim to be a metallurgist or have great knowledge in said field. I am the dummy holding the torch.

Pics of what I do. This is recent job I did for Splangy.
Drill holes. Good clean and not jagged in any way. I use a step bit.

The hole must be prepped for the weld.

I then do what I do to get the coupler through the side of the keg.

A view from the inside.

The couplers are purged and welded.

Stay tuned, I type slow. More to come.

Now, this is really nothing new in the field of metal working. I haven't done anything special. Just applied a different technique.

As most know that when working with stainless steel you must be very carefull about what comes in contact with the stainless. Wire brushes are probly the biggest example of this. It goes for every thing. If a carbon source gets on the surface and the stainless gets to its magic temp of 800-1600 degrees, then it will become what is known as sensitized. The chromium in stainless is what makes it stainless. When the temp is elevated it can/will bond with the carbon. Your chromium has now become chromium carbide. You no longer have stainless steel. The only real fix is to do a solution heat treat on the material to get it back to where it once was. Since welding is a localized thing, the heat affected zone is the only area that is changed. This is why welds or any other areas exposed to the higher temps will rust. Stainless will rust anyway, this just speeds up the process. I think some have miss conception of stainless steel.

So, we must think about all things that come in contact with the stainless. Drilling we are pretty much screwed on. Every thing else we can controll. When hammering on stainless it is best to use a chunk of stainless. Iron will embed in the surface and that iron will rust.

So, DeapSea posted this.

Scroll down until you see the "bolt on series" (1018) steel.
This is how its done.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796323

This is "not" how I do it. These are dimple dies. They are made of 1018. 1018 is mild steel. So IMO we cant use them. However, the idea can be used. I think it is a great place to start. We just need to change the material. Stainless was mentioned in the thread this was posted in. I myself would not make this out of stainless. After thinking about it today and what it does.......stainless might work. I am just not sure for how long. Stainless is a pretty soft material and I wonder about the profile holding up to the pressure. The two pieces of metal must slide past each other while being pressed into shape. Galling, to some extent might occur along with mushrooming of the profile.

One could make the dies out of stainless and then weld all over them to surface harden them. That might stop the defacing issue. IDK.

Well, I think that is more then a fair start.

Yes I know I typed "weldor". It is a clairification in text. Here is the first bit from wikipedia.
A welder (also weldor, which term distinguishes the tradesman from the equipment used to make welds) is a tradesman who specialises in welding materials together.

Very nice weld!

The tool is really neat. I like the idea of the whole thing. I kind of what to buy some even though I have no use for them right now. You know... just in case I do later...

GreenMonti said:

I am still not going to tell how "I" do it. Please don't ask.

Click to expand...

If you want this thread to stay on track, that is a terrible disclaimer. I will venture to say that it's all we want to know about the topic.

Richard Finch would applaud your use of the term, "weldor."

Sweet job!

Without knowing any better, here's how I might try to accomplish such a pretty task:

First, looks like the hole size was a bit (yes, pun intended) smaller than the coupling used.

Next trick would be to find a SS coupling that is larger.... about as large at the outside radius of the final "draw". Not sure the exact term, but where the keg metal begins to flair up toward the fitting.

Set the nipple to be inserted inside, over the hole, with a bolt and large washer going all the way through, long enough to reach thru the second, oversized coupling placed on the outside of the keg. Add another monster washer (or plate with a hole in it) and a nut. Wrench on both ends until it draws the nipple thru the hole.

Nice looking work, btw.

I think I'd want it a little smoother on the inside so as to keep any break material from collecting in there.

conpewter said:

I think I'd want it a little smoother on the inside so as to keep any break material from collecting in there.

Click to expand...

I was thinking of this too. I am sure it wouldn't really be a big issue at all, but if you're already putting so much effort into it (instead of a no weld) I'd kind of want it perfect.

I did some TIG welding year ago, I wonder if you could weld the inside without filler to fuse the coupler with the surrounding get material to create a smooth area that wouldn't collect junk. Of course welding inside the bottom of a keggle wouldn't exactly be fun.

This is nice folks, keep it coming.

I'm definitely missing the point of doing this..... can someone explain what the advantage is?

Uhh... why don't you just tell us how you do it? I doubt you are the only person in the whole welding populace who knows how to achieve this result. If we guess, will you tell us when we are right?

robbiex0r said:

Uhh... why don't you just tell .....will you tell us when we are right?

Click to expand...

You draw the undersized coupling through the hole w/ an impact wrench?? You drive a tapered hardwood peg into the hole???


c'mon already...i seriously doubt one could retire on this piece of ingenuity.

As others have mentioned, I'm concerned about any cavities on the inside. Can you post a pic of the inside of the coupler after it's been welded? Or do you simply leave it as the 4th picture shows?

Nice welds by the way.

Perhaps GreenMonti invited Chuck Norris over for some homebrew and the gravitational pull created by his dense muscle mass distorted the hole. Hey its just a guess, so am I right?

I like the idea of the hole being drawn or spun. it makes for a nice finish on the outside. Nice weld there too. As for the inside, being flush would be pretty but we are talking about preboil so it really doesn't matter. If it was welded inside I could see a definite strength advantage since the inner and outer welds are farther apart allowing for more side loading. But I have never seen a quality kettle weld break so think that is an unnecessary redundancy. Have you thought of placing the weld on the inside instead of the outside? Either way I would brew with it. Good job.

It's a stainless fitting, right? You're welding a stainless fitting to a stainless keg?

Scut_Monkey said:

I'm definitely missing the point of doing this..... can someone explain what the advantage is?

Click to expand...

In a previous post, GreenMonti stated that the couple could be fused to the keg by a TIG welder without filler material which would be a big advantage and produces a much nicer weld if done right. I've done some small amount of TIGing and it requires skill and practice. I could only hope to produce half as good a weld as GreenMonti.

Blane said:

In a previous post, GreenMonti stated that the couple could be fused to the keg by a TIG welder without filler material which would be a big advantage and produces a much nicer weld if done right. I've done some small amount of TIGing and it requires skill and practice. I could only hope to produce half as good a weld as GreenMonti.

Click to expand...

I see. Thanks for that.

But I don't understand why the big secret. Is the thread just to promote your welding services? Do you do this for others on here?

That's a very nice weld but the gap on the inside looks like it would be hell to clean out.

Pat

Yeah I'm with some of the other folks, why all the secrecy? I looks nice but I don't think I'd want to clean that crevice out.

Regardless of how he pulls the couplings through the wall, GreenMonti has offered up good information on welding stainless. He has helped me with advice on my project and if geographically feasible, I'd have him do my welding in a heart beat. I really hope that this thread doesn't become a forum to "beat him up" because he won't divulge a technique that sets him apart.
Let's face it, Homebrewers are notorious DIY'ers, Engineers and McGuyver's... My guess is there are already folks trying to reproduce GreenMonti's results. Personally, this is why I Don't think you could ever make a living from a HomeBrew Product... as soon as it hits the market, you have guys like us, making our own improved version and giving it away.
I think GreenMonti may be toying with us... I think when someone figures it out, he'll "fess up". If not, or if no one figures it out, to GreenMonti I say, "More power to you"... Just don't be too upset when the McGuyvers get irritated that you have something they don't.

Ed

Ed - Green Monti started this thread titled "Keg Tool". One might infer that it should pertain to solely to how he "pulls the couplings". Why is it odd that we would want to know about the tool? Perhaps it should be retitled "The elusive keg tool that I'm not going to tell you about". My two cents.

agree.. even if the whole world knows about the 'tool' his welds are perfect and that is what sets him apart from the rest. so just give it up..you tease.

What about the cost to do the welded-ninja fitting. How much do you charge for that work? Surely that can't be a secret too?

-OCD

Lehr,
The hole looks similar to what you did on the line of holes on your brew rig.

My Polareware kettle has a similar configuration and there's no issue with keeping the groove on the inside clean. Simply doesn't collect any gunk.

I agree, why all the bashing? The thread title was Keg Tool because it's about the "keg tool" questions he gets every time one of his pictures are posted. He's not going to divulge it, it seems to be something that sets him apart from other welders, at least in his area if not more, and that is his profession. He linked everyone to a viable alternative to achieve the same result. Be happy with that. He's a very nice guy from the little I've spoke with him. Don't beat him up cause you can't figure out his trade "secret".

LiquidGold said:

Lehr,
The hole looks similar to what you did on the line of holes on your brew rig.

Click to expand...

I thought the same thing... Ya wanna let us know how YOU did the line of holes lehr?

lehr said:

That's a very nice weld but the gap on the inside looks like it would be hell to clean out.

Pat

Click to expand...

I do kinda wonder how that'll work out. Being that it's all pre boil I can't see it being a huge issue but it does make one wonder. I wonder how it'd look if the weld was done on the outside but the flange was pulled inward rather than outward. If pulled inward I'd think you'd have a great weld for cold side connections.

pickles said:

Ed - Green Monti started this thread titled "Keg Tool". One might infer that it should pertain to solely to how he "pulls the couplings". Why is it odd that we would want to know about the tool? Perhaps it should be retitled "The elusive keg tool that I'm not going to tell you about". My two cents.

Click to expand...

Pickles, At least 2 other threads related to welding kegs got "derailed" with folks asking "How'd you do that"... As GreenMonti stated in the opening msg of this thread, this is a place to discuss that without derailing any more threads.
It is not odd that folks want to know how to replicate what he has done... I'm certainly curious. But it's also not odd that someone with a unique method want to keep it to themselves. The only thing that really makes this seem odd at all is the fact that he is a homebrewer and we all expect him to share.

I still want to see the inside after the weld.

bendavanza said:

I still want to see the inside after the weld.

Click to expand...

The best I can do right now. I didn't take a pic of Splangy's keg. I can take another pic of this one just to show you more of the inside if you would like.

While I understand where every one is comming from, I am sorry. I am not giving it up. I am trying to help all you others build a tool that will do the same thing. I have given a lot of info as to what should be looked at. I put up a link to a good start. I am also going to put up another link that DeapSea has posted in another thread. It too is another good option. The important thing to remember is what material you use to make the tool with. You have to be very, very carefull about what you use to work the stainless with.

It has been questioned about the cleanability. I can't imagine it being any worse then how the couplers are welded on now. The way they are done now you still have a unwelded seam for the much smaller junk to get caught in. Your going to have the same issues with the couplers and the threads of what ever you plan to thread in there. IMO this just looks a heck of a lot better. It is also eaisly polished if a weld isn't your taste. Yes, they can be done in the oposite direction. No problem. Can you imagine just how hard a weld would be at the bottom of a keg? If you use this method all that is needed is a fusion weld which is very easy to do because of the way it is fit up. It has all the filler a fusion weld could want. Think about how much more easy it would be to weld the inside if done backwards and done this way.

IMO it does matter if the world knows how I do this. It was stated that my work will be enough to get me the business. If it were only that easy. I mentioned in my opening post, about a convo and while they wanted me to do the work cause they loved my welds. All they wanted to do was beat me up on the price.

Thank you to all that are supporting me.

There has been some really good ideas posted about this. I don't think a tool for the masses is far off. When that time comes, no I will not tell how I do it. Even if it is the same way. It really shouldn't matter then, right?

Here is a shot of the eld polished off. Try this on how the couplers are done now.

Here is that other link from DeapSea.
http://www.mittlerbros.com/punch__flares.htm

Again, these or something like them will need to be made out of a different material.

Amazing craftsmanship!

very interesting subject. The dies could be made using 304 stainless it is a strong stainless that is not very easy to be machined and should hold up to the strain of being pulled through the stainless wall.

If the fitting is stainless, all he has to do is set up a jig that will pull the fitting through an undersized hole. There is no need for a special tool to flare the hole. You just pull the fitting through the hole and it flares it in the process.

johnnyo1977 said:

very interesting subject. The dies could be made using 304 stainless it is a strong stainless that is not very easy to be machined and should hold up to the strain of being pulled through the stainless wall.

Click to expand...

If it is possible, use 304L. Just to get that little extra .05% of carbon content out of the equation.


Sorry guys. I fit and weld parts by hand all day every day for aircraft. On a good day I get .015" tolerance for flanges and such. Some parts are 8" diameter.

ReeseAllen said:

If the fitting is stainless, all he has to do is set up a jig that will pull the fitting through an undersized hole. There is no need for a special tool to flare the hole. You just pull the fitting through the hole and it flares it in the process.

Click to expand...

I wonder how much force this would take? If it could be done without distorting the curve of the keg to much?